Tractor or UTV?

We moved to a bigger property this year and I'm contemplating an upgrade from my trusty but underpowered 400CC ATV to either a compact tractor or a "mid-size" UTV like the Kawasaki Mule. Obviously, to justify this kind of purchase I need to be able to do a lot of things with the vehicle but maple'ing is sort of a nice cross-section of tasks. Any thoughts on the better investment for a 30 acre sugar bush with some decent grade in the woods?

I do have a line on an older, 2WD tractor but I'm wondering if that would have the traction needed for work hauling heavy loads in the woods.

Either an utv or as big of 4wd tractor as you can afford. I have a full functioning farm with little tractors, big tractors. And a utv. I use the utv daily. Most helpful tool on the farm for getting around. But, a tractor has amazing versatility to get the job done. It really comes down to what you need most.

We use a Kubota UTV with tracks for all our work in the woods during the winter. This includes hauling all of the sap we collect. With up to 4' of snow on the level when syrup season starts for us, it is the only practical way for us to transport sap. We have used it for 10 years and it is still going strong, hauling an average of 3500+ gallons of sap each year.
Gary

It depends on your use needs. I have both a 4wd tractor and a UTV and use both a lot. If you have farm type work like mowing, bush hogging and soil work then get a tractor, but if your mostly just tooling around and tasking then a UTV is the choice. If I could only get one at a time I would go with the UTV for versatility.

I have a 2018 Massie Ferguson 1735 ((39 hp) with a front end loader and love it. A front end loader is very important, you will be surprised how much work you will do with it. I went with the massie because it was heavier built and competitively priced at $23,000.00. You can go smaller, but you'll be happier with bigger. Usually a tractor in the 30+ HP will do a nice job for your size property, but up to 60 will do fine.

We have a Kubota RTV 900 UTV. We looked at every brand we could find and settled on the Kubota for driveability and good reviews. The Mule was our second choice. Kubota often has zero % financing. We found a holdover demo model just like we wanted and bought it for $2,500.00 off sticker. We had to drive 1.5 hrs to the dealer, but it was worth it. They usually have these after model years change, which should be about now. Don't be afraid to ask. Ours still carried full warranty and had less than 10 hrs.

I have both a Kawasaki Mule MX (2019) and a 50 hp Long tractor. One thing to keep in kind, is that when things get muddy the tractor will tear up your woods a lot more than a utv.

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Originally Posted by heus

One thing to keep in kind, is that when things get muddy the tractor will tear up your woods a lot more than a utv.

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Very good point heus, back when I worked my woods on buckets and had a two wheel drive tractor, I destroyed my woods roads and field. Every summer meant hours on the tractor with a blade trying to smooth things out. I even had to do some dozer work a couple times. That was the great thing about tubing, I don't even go in the woods with the tractor now, when it's soft. The UTV will not leave much of a footprint unless you get crazy with it.

Thanks for the input - yes, I can see where a tractor has more versatility when needed but my growing bunch is that the UTV would get more use throughout the year.

Interesting, I seem to run across the recommendation of either kubota or kawasaki for a UTV. Have you ever found the diesel Kubota to be underpowered or tough to maneuver on hills? What did the tracks setup set you back $-wise?

Another vote for Kubota, eh? Yeah, I can only justify one expense right now even though I have a feeling I will someday need a tractor as well. It will be tough to convince my wife to go for two financed purchases, we just bought this place but then also are done paying off both cars. Sort of an offset.

I have heard that Massey and Mahindra are good options for compact tractors. The one I have been looking at is a Kubota but it's older, 2WD and has no loader (right now).

I've been looking closely at the Mule...I see many folks around here with their newer Pro FX line and here they are similarly built for work as the Kubota. The Mule FX has a model that is more bare bones than the 6 person transport models and instead it has a very large cargo bed that would be good for my other hobby, firewood.

We have very nice trails here that have been well maintained by my neighbor's kid, it would be a shame to tear them apart.

I have experienced the Kubota RTV diesel starving for power on steep slopes in High range, but if I feather the throttle it picks up and goes. I have hauled firewood stacked clear up against the cap and had plenty of power, Just go to low range. I have hauled the bed full of stone too. We did like the mule, but when we found this bargain on the Kubota we jumped. There is a big difference in the Mules from model to model, definitely look at the pro FX. The kubota has power steering and is very easy driving, get power steering in whatever you get.

On the tractors, kubotas are good, but you pay a lot more for that orange paint. My Massie compared against the same size kubota was $3,000.00 + cheaper and still a good machine. I have not looked at Mahindras, but hear good things about them.

Buy the new UTV now and a cheaper old used tractor, they hold good resale value to trade on a new one later. You can get a good functional two wheel drive tractor for under $6,000.00. You'll end up doing some work on it, but it will do a lot of work for you too.

I can't count the times we've needed 4 wheel drive both in, and out of the woods. I'd recommend that for sure. I'd go for a compact tractor with a quick on quick off front loader. Deere has those, I have one and like it. In general, I agree with those who say to buy the most tractor you can afford, but size in the woods with narrow tracks and some sliding may be an issue with larger tractors and snow ice and mud.
I just put most tools in the bucket, and tow a trailer, and the tractor works good. I've used an ATV (Polaris) but for me it just wasn't the right tool for sapping.
good luck! Mark

I've used an ATV and a snowmobile as well as 2 different tractors. Both tractors were 4x4, a 20 hp and a 37hp/cab. I have seen lots of work done using a good UTV. So, I guess it's just up to you. Decide what it is you want most to accomplish. Does your land have low, muddy areas, or areas too steep to climb? Do you have established trails or will you need to make some. Answering those questions will help you make a good choice. There isn't really a bad choice unless you pick something that can't navigate your woods. The UTV will likely cause less damage. A tractor can get more work done because of the attachments available, but those attachments can "tax the bank" if you know what I mean.

Does anyone use a 4x4 mini truck like a honda acty? They just made them road legal in the state I live in. I like the idea of the drop side bed heat and AC at no extra cost. Interested if anyone has any experience.

I use both a 2006 "HPX Trail Gator" and a Skidoo Tundra for woods and syrup work.
I can go just about anywhere in the Gator, it's fine until the snow gets >20" in depth - then it can bottom out.
I used it to collect sap until I went to a tube system, I now use it to haul wood, set taps, maintain lines and plow 2 drives we have here.

The SkiDoo Tundra a fairly specialized snow machine from SkiDoo...made more for work than play. It's very narrow and light with a 4 stroke 600CC engine.
When the snow is too deep for the Gator, I use it to check lines and skid logs out and over to the sugar house for bucking and splitting.

I have no experience with a tractor so can't help in that regard.

A pic of the Tundra pulling its weight...
Attachment 21705

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Originally Posted by buckeye gold

I have experienced the Kubota RTV diesel starving for power on steep slopes in High range, but if I feather the throttle it picks up and goes. I have hauled firewood stacked clear up against the cap and had plenty of power, Just go to low range. I have hauled the bed full of stone too. We did like the mule, but when we found this bargain on the Kubota we jumped. There is a big difference in the Mules from model to model, definitely look at the pro FX. The kubota has power steering and is very easy driving, get power steering in whatever you get.

On the tractors, kubotas are good, but you pay a lot more for that orange paint. My Massie compared against the same size kubota was $3,000.00 + cheaper and still a good machine. I have not looked at Mahindras, but hear good things about them.

Buy the new UTV now and a cheaper old used tractor, they hold good resale value to trade on a new one later. You can get a good functional two wheel drive tractor for under $6,000.00. You'll end up doing some work on it, but it will do a lot of work for you too.

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Thanks, this makes a lot of sense to me - get the UTV now and keep an eye out for deals on a used tractor. I do feel like I should have one with 4WD.

Back to the Kubota, do you ever find issue running diesel? Hard starting in the cold? Does it handle start and stop use well or do you leave it running for long periods of time?

Yes, I am looking at the Mule Pro FX EPS with roof.

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Originally Posted by maple flats

I've used an ATV and a snowmobile as well as 2 different tractors. Both tractors were 4x4, a 20 hp and a 37hp/cab. I have seen lots of work done using a good UTV. So, I guess it's just up to you. Decide what it is you want most to accomplish. Does your land have low, muddy areas, or areas too steep to climb? Do you have established trails or will you need to make some. Answering those questions will help you make a good choice. There isn't really a bad choice unless you pick something that can't navigate your woods. The UTV will likely cause less damage. A tractor can get more work done because of the attachments available, but those attachments can "tax the bank" if you know what I mean.

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Good thoughts to consider. We do have well established trails but there are two main sections where I really wonder how a tractor would handle the slope going up or down in wet / muddy / snowy weather.

Tractor implements are stupid expensive, IMHO. It seems like you can buy an old 2WD compact with a 6' mower on the rear for less than buying a new mower deck for one. I would definitely be getting the hairy eyeball if I bought a tractor and then started racking up $2-$3k "add-on" costs.

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Originally Posted by johnallin

I use both a 2006 "HPX Trail Gator" and a Skidoo Tundra for woods and syrup work.
I can go just about anywhere in the Gator, it's fine until the snow gets >20" in depth - then it can bottom out.
I used it to collect sap until I went to a tube system, I now use it to haul wood, set taps, maintain lines and plow 2 drives we have here.

The SkiDoo Tundra a fairly specialized snow machine from SkiDoo...made more for work than play. It's very narrow and light with a 4 stroke 600CC engine.
When the snow is too deep for the Gator, I use it to check lines and skid logs out and over to the sugar house for bucking and splitting.

I have no experience with a tractor so can't help in that regard.

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Interesting that you mention the Tundra, I was reading up on those last night - I don't know if it's just a regional thing or a COVID rush but there are tons of seemingly solid Ski-Doo machines for sale around me here and I think the prices seem very reasonable (in the $2-4k range). The only thing that makes me hesitate on investing in a snow machine now is that they're so specialized and we often have our biggest sap runs with no snow on the ground around here.

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Originally Posted by johnallin

A pic of the Tundra pulling its weight...
Attachment 21705

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wow, that thing looks like a hoss!

A two wheel drive tractor with a front end loader will struggle in any soft ground or snow with a load in the bucket, I have a 39hp Deere fwa with loader and backhoe it does a great job for what it is meant for, it is limited on my trails due to width and slope. I sure would not want to get stuck so far off away from help. I only have the backhoe on as needed. For almost all my maple work I use a Polaris 1000cc utv,I pull a trailer with a 65gal tank and around 75 gal in the utv bed, it handles this fine. I am a farmer so having multiple tractors is just a part of my operation.

My 2 cents:

John Deere Gator 825i: The most used of the "fleet". Of course we've got a long driveway to check the mail or load trash to the dumpster.

400 CC CanAm: It will go a lot more places, faster, and can duck under most lateral lines. It's much better for checking lines provided the snow isn't too deep.

Kubota L4240 Tractor: Needed for heavier work with a logging winch, forks, bucket, flail mower, and snow plow. Extra hydraulic circuits front and rear for attachments. Bought used, but that's another story.

Could I get by with just one -NOPE.
Could I get by with one less - Maybe the ATV. But it's by far the cheapest of the fleet.

I have an older (1981 Ford 1500) 4x4 tractor, a diesel. it has glow plugs and starts well down to about -10F. When it's below 30F I run the glow plugs for about 10 seconds, off for 5 and the on for 8-10 seconds and it starts well. My newer tractor is a 37 hp Mahindra diesel, 2012 with a cab. I don't ever run the glow plugs more than once until the temperature is below 10F. That tractor heats much faster, when I turn the key a lite comes on to wait, in very short time (maybe 2-3 seconds) that light goes out and I turn the key farther and it fires right up. Modern diesels are not a starting issue, just like the pick up trucks.
If you do get a diesel, 30 yr old or less, as long as the battery is good, it will start well. You need to learn what the tractor needs for glow plug use. On my 20HP diesel (1981) I need to use the glow plugs for about 4-5 seconds even in the summer, once it has run that day, it starts without glow plug use. Just either use a 50/50 diesel/kerosene blend or use an anti gel additive. I use Power Service year round, never any gelling and it helps the diesel run in all temperatures.
I get my fuel delivered, both off road for the tractors and my excavator (no road tax) and for my F350 4x4 (has road tax added). In both tanks I buy about 250 gal at a time and I dump in a Power Service anti Gel meant for 250 gal before the delivery truck pumps the fuel in so it gets blended well. I have one other fuel tank that is only used in the summer, that never got any additive. Buying fuel in a large tank, costs less. My last batch of off road was 60 cents less than at the pump, my last on road diesel was still 35 cents less than the pump price. The big thing is that 250 gal X $ ? adds up all at once but then I go 3-4 months before I need more for my truck and about 18 mos for the tractors/excavator. It does not go bad as long as you don't get moisture in it. Even then, additives can fix it, or if lots of water, you can pump from the bottom of the tank, or as I have set up, just remove a drain plug, then open a valve. I've never yet had to do it, but it's an option if needed.

I’ve used a JD Gator 6x4 for years. It has a lower profile and scoots under most mainlines and laterals. Ruts are non existent unlike my larger tractors.

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Originally Posted by christopherh

I’ve used a JD Gator 6x4 for years. It has a lower profile and scoots under most mainlines and laterals. Ruts are non existent unlike my larger tractors.

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I would assume open top without ROPS. My father had the 4x4 version. It is definitely handy and tracked pretty well. Our kids learned to drive starting with that vehicle. When my son was about 12, he had an "accident" where he hit his grandmother's car as he was coming to a stop. It caused several hundred dollars in body work. It turned out to be one of the best life lessons he ever had and he hasn't had an accident since.

I think the answer as to what is right for you largely depends on where you are and what kind of area you need to cover. When we were working in the 5400 tap bush, we would always use the snowmobile whenever we could. We are talking 70 acres of land so getting to and from with a tractor would take all day. Never mind the snow and uneven, mountainous terrain. The tractor was good for snowblowing to the pump tank and working around the sugarhouse. Completely useless for us in the woods, largely due to the terrain and distances we need to reach. The Kubota 900 RTV was great to haul supplies and equipment in the fall. But it is a big heavy machine so going under lines in some areas were an issue with the cab. We had tracks on it but when we got much more than a foot of fresh snow, the Kubota was useless due to its weight and torquey, but low RPM diesel motor. In low or no snow years like this one so far, it was great. But by the end of a normal winter there is usually 4-6' of snow in the woods. The snowmobile (Skidoo Tundra like johnallins) was by far the most versatile.
As you can see, we were spoiled and had everything at our disposal. If I was on a budget and wanted the best bang for my buck, I would go for a 4 wheeler or side x side if you can afford it and a snowmobile if you're in area that has snow. The Kubota alone would do fine if you're in an area where the snow comes and goes all winter.

For sure nothing is as nimble, or as fast as the Tundra when there's snow in the woods, and the 4 stroke engine has grunt to spare when it's time to haul something out.
Had an older 2 stroke for a year before I got this one - there is no comparison.
Don;t know about the new ones; but my '06 gator is about 60" tall, with the cab roof, and most laterals can be pushed up and over the top when needed.

Our 10 year old Kubota 1100 UTV is the best starting and running diesel I have owned. Even at -10 degrees, it starts right up after only using the glow plugs for 3 to 5 seconds. I wish our JD 4320 started as smoothly. I ended up putting a block heater on JD so it would be easier to start when the temps get below 10 degrees. As for the cost of the tracks, you can get decent tracks for $4,000. Ours cost us $3200, but that was 8 years ago. We just purchased new tracks for our Can Am 570 ATV last winter and they were just under $4,000. Due to the amount of snow we have during the start of syrup season, we found it was really nice to have two tracked vehicles for working in the woods. Another really nice feature of buying 4 season tracks, we run them in the spring when it starts getting muddy and we stay completely on top of the ground, even with a full load of sap in the tank. Hate to tell you this, but nothing involved in making syrup is inexpensive!!!
Gary

I have both a a Kioti mechron and a new Holland 1920. I use the Kioti mechron 5 times as much than the tractor. I had a Kubota rtv I like it but the ground clearance wasn’t good and got stuck often. I didn’t like Polaris, can am or Honda because the beds are smaller and plastic. The Kioti has very good ground clearance a big metal bed, a Diesel engine 4x4 with locking rear end. The payload is 1600lbs. I have 210 gallon tank and I go through some very muddy spots with no problem. If you put tracks on it, it probably be unstoppable. I have pulled big logs out of the woods with ease. It is belt driven so it does not lack power like the Kubota. Now the dislike it’s slow like 20mph. And I keep destroying my cv boots. But that’s probably my fault it’s always packed full of mud snow and ice. I never get to thaw it out. It was also the cheapest out of them all. With full skid plates, winch , canopy, and windshield it was a few thousand cheaper than base models for the competitors. And I got a heated seat element from eBay to keep the wife happy.

I have a honda 400 quad and a JD 23hp compact tractor. I use the tractor more than the quad. When we have good run days the trailer gets heavy with 225 gallons of sap in it. The tractor has the industrial type tires on it and does not tear the woods roads up even in the soft spots. I also had the rear tires loaded with beet juice for added traction.

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Originally Posted by Pdiamond

I have a honda 400 quad and a JD 23hp compact tractor. I use the tractor more than the quad. When we have good run days the trailer gets heavy with 225 gallons of sap in it. The tractor has the industrial type tires on it and does not tear the woods roads up even in the soft spots. I also had the rear tires loaded with beet juice for added traction.

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My main collection tank is 300 gallons and I built a carrier out of a set of flat hay forks, on the 3 pt hitch. The tractor handles this quite well and I can raise and lower it by a the travel of the hitch (up to maybe 2 ft). I actually park it and run the main line right into it and in the morning just start the tractor and move the main line into a small tank and take off to the shack. It takes me about 20 minutes to off load at the shack and drive it back in place. I use the Kubota RTV for woods work

It's all about what you plan to do.
I have a 4wd compact tractor.
I have a Deere AMT (prior to Gator)
I (used to) have an ATV.
The tractor goes into the woods for firewood, for bush hogging the trails, for moving material around, for snow blowing out the trails for access. It is the only one of the 3 with a PTO to run implements. It will pull the largest load, including my larger firewood / dump trailer. It will also pull a thousand pound sap trailer easily.
The Gator goes into the woods for trail maintenance, for firewood collection off the main trails or smaller jobs and for sap collection. It is the primary one used collecting sap. We mount a 100 gallon tank in the bed and with 2 seats it gets us both to the woods in one trip. It needs a snow cleared trail though - does not do well loaded in more than a couple of inches of snow. We can pull the tank trailer behind it too - although 2 full tanks is way over it's rated capacity.
The ATV is faster. I took it when just nipping in to the bush for a "sap survey" or a quick fix to something. It will pull the 100 gallon sap trailer - although better to stay off the slopes when it is getting full. A full tank outweighs the ATV, even with me on board. The ATV left this summer when my son moved away. I will miss it - but not enough to replace it.

If you envision any "hard work" including pulling logs, grading trails, digging or moving dirt, running a bush hog or a snow blower - then a tractor is the only option.
For sap collection "tasks" - a UTV is faster and more nimble. But deep snow will stop it.
If I could only have one - I would start with the tractor. But now I have the Gator, I would never be without both.

2WD on either should be avoided. You WILL regret it later.

I use a 8x8 Argo Frontier 650 to get around the mountain, some of the trails are too dangerous for a four wheeler. I also use the Argo to haul firewood out from blowdowns and when I'm thinning. Attachment 21817

14,200 taps and your wood fired? That’s impressive, really impressive.

I wouldn't recommend my set up to anyone, sugarhouse and evaporator are way too small. I'm on the side of a mountain with no ability to expand the sugarhouse until I get down to the valley.

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Originally Posted by johnallin

14,200 taps and your wood fired? That’s impressive, really impressive.

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Just got our new Yamaha Viking this week,had a Kawasaki Mule before,sold it last year at deer hunting time. It was great for hauling out bits of firewood,whenever we cut arm size and down goes to sugar house,larger to furnace. The homemade mainline wire spinner and mainline spinner sit in the back for going right to the site,and best of all it parks right outside the sugar house door where we load the bottled syrup into and drive home to park in the garage. Only problem was with ground clearance it didn’t take much snow to stop it,and my wife had a hard time steering it without power steering. Now with the new side by side we’re back to driving right to where we are installing new mainline and laterals,and it even has a heater in it! Higher clearance too hopefully means no issues in the bush should the snow get deep

I have a tractor, a gator, and a snowmobile. If I could have only one it would be the tractor. The gator actually gets more used, but is not suitable for a lot of big jobs. The snowmobile gets used for mostly transportation. The gator works great for summer maintenance. For wood hauling equipment moving and other large activities nothing can beat the tractor

I just wanted to follow up on this thread I started to say thanks to everyone - every response was helpful to me and I always enjoy hearing how others manage their setups.

Unfortunately my conclusion is that, unless you're on a flat 5 acre field like I used to be, you ideally need a collection of vehicles to manage all the task appropriately.

Since I have a Yamaha Kodiak ATV and my neighbor has a 500CC snowmobile, I am increasingly thinking my next major purchase will be a 25-30HP tractor. As I noted in my first post, having just bought a new (bigger) place and still having young kids, I need to invest in something that will make my jobs easier all year round.

While I have 50 buckets I'll put up this year on a flat top in the back corner of our woods, my long term plan is to run tubing down the edge of our 30 acre parcel that follows a long drainage / slope to a gulley just behind where I want to place a 16x24 sugar shack. I think I could probably pump right from that collection spot, up a hill to the eventual site of a shack.

I would still run a couple dozen buckets because I love the nostalgia and my kids enjoy tapping > hanging them but I could probably be choosy about where they go to make collection easier.

If/when I make the final new purchase I'll let you all know. A local ag retailer has both a used 2019 Kubota 4x4 26hp and a fully kitted out (cab, hydraulic plow, power dump) JD 825i XUV for about the same money ($14k~).

We shall see!

Sounds like a good plan for tubing and the location of the future sugarhouse. Also the loaded tractor sounds like a nice investment. I just got my first tractor and can't believe i waited this long to get one. We will see how helpful it is with the sugaring process.