Is 34 taps on one 3/16 line too many?

I have a great elevation drop to the sugar shack and that creates fantastic vacuum if the animals don't chew a hole in the line. I can snake a single line down one side of my property but it has allot of taps on it. Would I be better off with separating into two lines? The 34 taps are on about 1400 ft of line. Maybe 3/16 for the top half and 5\16 for the lower half but still on one line? Just don't want to be pumping sap into the bottom trees on the elevation drop instead of into the tank. What do you think?

I'm no expert - and when I say that I mean I have never done tubing myself but I am researching it actively as I plan to implement tubing this year - but I watched a video recently with one of the (Former) UVM maple research folks where he indicates the ideal number is about 20 however you can go much higher and they have experimented with it successfully. Check out 2 minutes in or so: https://youtu.be/nDrkU_qYb1Q?t=120

I think you would be better off with two lines stay all 3/16. We put 15-20 on our lines of 3/16 and they are usually pretty full.

VTnewguy is correct you want 3/16" all the way down or you will lose the vacuum effect once it hits the 5/16" line. Having done 3/16" natural gravity on 50 trees, I used 3 lines and pulled 28" of vacuum at the top of each line. You are better going to two lines.

Two of my 3/16 laterals are 1600' long, one has 44 the other 48 taps, both have about 150'-200' of 5/16 at the bottom end of the run (ran out of 3/16 when I added these laterals) both pull 28" of vac at the top. The other ten lines in these woods are from 400-800' and have 20-30 taps, Top tree is a little over 900' ASL, bottom tree 650" and the tank is at 600'. There are a few dozen trees that are close to the mainline and didn't have enough drop for 3/16, so I put 5-7 taps on 5/16 I think there are 6 or 7 of those laterals. On nights where it don't freeze, the 3/16 will keep runnin all night once the vacuum gets started, the 5/16 won't. I averaged 1.3 gallon of sap per tap in this section last year- that was a on days it ran and a combination of 3/16 high drop and 5/16 not much drop.

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Originally Posted by DocsMapleSyrup

VTnewguy is correct you want 3/16" all the way down or you will lose the vacuum effect once it hits the 5/16" line. Having done 3/16" natural gravity on 50 trees, I used 3 lines and pulled 28" of vacuum at the top of each line. You are better going to two lines.

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This is correct. You'll do fine with 34 taps, but the lines are overloaded at this point so will not perform optimally. You'll do better in terms of yield by splitting it into two lines, and if a squirrel chews into one line and stops the vacuum, the other will still be good.

Shaggy acres, what is the difference in elevation from your lowest tap to the collection tank? You want 35' of elevation drop from the lowest tap before you change to 5/16" tubing or enter a mainline so that the lateral creates the maximum natural vacuum possible, below that elevation there is not really a benefit to the 3/16" tubing vacuum wise but I would hesitate to put any unnecessary fittings (that tent to plug) and 3/16" is less expensive than 5/16" so why change? Like bmbmkr, I have several laterals over 1500' and around 40 taps on those laterals without trouble. Is 40+ taps per 3/16" lateral recommend? No, but 35 taps is reported to be acceptable and I can not warrant an additional lateral for 5 or 6 taps.

We have no more than 15 taps on 3/16", spanning less than 100' per run to our 1" mainline. We tried to maximize taps while minimizing the lateral run lengths.

Thank you for your input. Sounds like I could run another line but not necessary. Stick with 3/16 all the way. Going to pick up a couple cheap vacuum gages this year and see what I get out of each line. Been working on a new Arch this year so really need to get that done!

I'll add a little opinion for contemplation. First, I have all 3/16" lines and anywhere from 15-30 taps each. None of my laterals have optimum set ups as to fall and length. I only have two that have more than 10-15 feet of fall after the last tap. Most have 30 or more at the top, but as I get down slope I enter a more level area. I have never checked vacuum levels on these lines, but know I have some on all the taps. I run 5 of these laterals into a 1/2" main line once I'm out of the woods to my collection tank. I believe it still benefits me to run these 3/16th lines. I used to do buckets/bags on all these and going to tubing was an effort to reduce my labor after being diagnosed with heart disease and asthma. Here are my rationals for 3/16th tubing:

1.) Cheaper and easy to handle, set up

2.) Any vacuum is better than no vacuum

3.) Labor saving

I can go back over my records and show that even without optimum parameters I have gained sap, saved money and saved physical work with 3/16th. I think we get too hung up on perfection and max production set ups. We should evaluate what we want and if there is significant benefit in what we can do. Also, ask yourself, "do I need maximized sap production?". I am a hobby producer and if I pay my expenses and make a little extra money from sales, I'm good with that. If I can do it easier, I'm really good with that. Now if you have bigger operations and a high financial investment then I understand why you look to optimize every drop of sap, but from what I see there are a lot of producers on this forum that just don't meet that criteria. For them, if they can get some gain from a less than perfect set up then I say do it.

Buckeye is right. While 34 taps is a lot, I read a few years ago that 37 might be the max. That said, on a lease I had a few years ago I had one line that I really went overboard on. I had 43 taps on one 3/16. It happened, when after setting up a line, I noticed a line of sugar maples going back into the woods from where the original line had started at the high end. Since the sap was running, I set up a line extension that had 14 more taps, and I just tied it as an extension to the existing line. From the original end tree, I removed (cut off) the end hook and used a coupler to join it to the original line with 29 taps on it.
I planned to convert it to separate lines before the next season, however, it stayed with 43 for 2 more seasons, then I sold that lease (actually back to the landowner), he is now collecting the sap, because he retired last month.
Was 43 ideal? Certainly not, did I cause a loss of sap potential, absolutely. However watching he sap/air (gases), sap/air march down the hill was still very satisfying. On slower sap flow days you won't likely lose any potential, but on real good sap flow days you will get less sap than you could with 2 lines.

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Originally Posted by buckeye gold

I think we get too hung up on perfection and max production set ups. We should evaluate what we want and if there is significant benefit in what we can do.

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Please note that while I don't necessarily disagree with you, I can't begin to tell you how many times people will listen to our presentations or email/call with questions, but in the end, instead of following any of our recommendations, will just add more taps as a way to get more sap. That approach works, but can be just as costly in terms of $ and labor. Or they say. "It's just a hobby, and changes will cost too much money.", but then turn around and ask why their production is so poor and how do they make more. We have a handful of people who contact us year after year asking the same questions about how to get better production, but then won't follow any of the suggestions we make.

There are a good number of folks who are of the opinion that they can always do things on the cheap and get good results. The alternative approach is that sometimes it takes a money to make more money. Both viewpoints can be valid...depends upon your goals and expectations I guess. Good production on 3/16" tubing, while certainly possible, still takes some effort (proper installation, cleaning, sanitizing, leak checking) to make it work really well. Some people buy cheap tools....others will only buy the expensive stuff...both will work....one will most likely work better and last longer. Your viewpoint might depend upon whether it's a hobby or your income source.

I have absolutely no problem with people who are happy with how they're doing it and are satisfied with where they are at, but don't complain about it if that's the way you want to go (again...not that you personally are doing that....but plenty of people do).

The middle of the road approach also doesn't always work. We often see people buying massive pumps, but they have small mainlines and have no idea what their vacuum levels are out in the woods. Poor production...guess I need a bigger pump.

If I'm driving around and see maple tubing I'll often stop and take a look. Lots of really nice installations out there....and a good number of poor installations. People who don't bother doing it correctly shouldn't wonder why they aren't getting good production, but they probably spent close to the same amount as a good installation would take. 10% more $ or effort would make a huge difference in production.

So back to the original question...and a repeat of my original answer...34 taps is NOT too many if you have good slope, but it is at the high end of the recommendations for 3/16" tubing. Production is not likely to be optimal, but it will work fine (if fine is what you're after). Splitting it into 2 lines might make sense, and would help if one line developed leaks, but would increase cost somewhat. Splitting into the two lines with a Y fitting into one is not recommended.

Oh believe me I understand exactly where your coming from, Dr Tim. In my career I had statutory authority over a certain agricultural group (no I'm not saying who) and part of that was doing compliance and licensing inspections. I would see "Jerry rigged" systems all the time and know they weren't efficient or functioning properly. Not all where compliance issues, but I always gave recommendations on how to improve their set ups. There was a certain time of year that problems always showed up and you can imagine who would be rigging my phone off the hook and pleading for me to come tell them what was wrong. My answer was always, pull out your inspection report the answer is right there!


Now you might find the same efficiency issues in my Maple bush, but I am quite satisfied with my mediocre efficiency. However; with that said I do agree with you, don't complain if you take short cuts when you know better and are just trying to be cheap. All I was saying is I think there is a fair number of us who are just fine with less than optimum. Actually, I do set up my lines with the best practices in my installs. Where I fudge is on the slope. I can't get optimum slope and distance and still get all my taps, so instead of doing two different set ups, one is good enough. If I ever get to the place I want maximized sap I will certainly change my approach. Right now I have more sap than I need.

Have you or anyone ever done a survey on how many producers are serious business, making a substantial part of their income from Maple and how many are doing it as a hobby or side interest secondary business? when I look at the profiles here a whole lot are less than 300 taps.

I would be very interested in seeing a survey on the topic. I run everything I do as a business and something that I have to make money to support my family. I can't even fathom cutting corners if it would jeopardize production. :confused:

The old saying "YOU GET OUT, WHAT YOU PUT IN" That being said I hate to do things twice, Why do all the work for half the profit. Yes I need the money to keep the lights on and I want people that see my woods to say that looks great. It leads to more syrup sales. People talk, and that is why some can only sell bulk.

Just to clarify what I am saying. I am not saying it's ok to be sloppy and dirty. It's not ok to have leaky, saggy and spliced up multiple type tubing runs. I'm not saying it's ok to boil bad sap, do poor filtering or poor bottling practices.

The original question was. "is it ok to have more than recommended taps on a 3/16th lateral". That and the optimum slope is "ALL" I am addressing and suggesting can be adjusted beyond or below the perfect set up. I am saying that a lot of producers will be happy going ahead with a few more taps on a line than recommended. Also, they can still gain if they don't have the full 30 ft of drop after the last tap. Even if you only have 10-15feet drop after your last tap, you can still gain some from a 3/16th run, but it won't be optimum. Your lines still need to be clean, well maintained and tight.

I'll let ya know. We are setting up 1- 3/16" line this year with exactly 34 taps on it. I haven't measured but probably 20' of drop or so. 500' long and will drain into a tote. Going to set it up this weekend. We have always had 2 runs of 5/16" so I expect it will be improvement. Obviously beyond optimum for the 5/16" we had and pushing it for 3/16". Still, these trees have always been some of our best producers pushing out north of 2 GPT on a good run with the less than optimum 5/16" gravity line setup we had.

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Originally Posted by mainebackswoodssyrup

I'll let ya know. We are setting up 1- 3/16" line this year with exactly 34 taps on it. I haven't measured but probably 20' of drop or so. 500' long and will drain into a tote. Going to set it up this weekend. We have always had 2 runs of 5/16" so I expect it will be improvement. Obviously beyond optimum for the 5/16" we had and pushing it for 3/16". Still, these trees have always been some of our best producers pushing out north of 2 GPT on a good run with the less than optimum 5/16" gravity line setup we had.

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That will be interesting to see, for sure. I am guessing you have it isolated so you know what is doing. I hope it works well

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Originally Posted by buckeye gold

That will be interesting to see, for sure. I am guessing you have it isolated so you know what is doing. I hope it works well

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This particular spot is just 1 row of big sugar maples along a rock wall. It's just the 1 line to the tote, nothing else. Everything else around it is smaller oak and some beech. Southern facing and very open to the crowns hence the reason they are good trees and probably why they run so well. It should be pretty easy to compare with what we have done in the past. I have good records on it. If it doesn't work good, we'll probably run a 3/4" mainline and go back to 5/16" tubing next year, eventually adding a shurflo. I am hoping the 3/16" works good though.

My lines average between 15-30(max) taps per line. Most are 25 and that's my usual goal based on the average I've convinced myself to have with the amount of reading I've done on MT. I had gauges on all the lines last year and never get below 23-25 on the vac gauges (I'll leave some tolerance to accuracy there). But several times I pulled a tap or a fitting and experienced the "whhhoooossshhh" sound of vacuum being lost so I know they work very well. This was on all new lines/trees/taps/drops. Virgin set ups. I was very happy with their capability and I am over the required drop elevation to achieve the 3/16" benefits.

Long story short, I shoot for 25 for the heavy days of optimizing sap potential and not overloading the lines. Do I lose sleep on my 30 tap lines? Not very likely.

Now getting some decent sugar content #'s is a different story and topic.........:lol:

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Originally Posted by DrTimPerkins

This is correct. You'll do fine with 34 taps, but the lines are overloaded at this point so will not perform optimally. You'll do better in terms of yield by splitting it into two lines, and if a squirrel chews into one line and stops the vacuum, the other will still be good.

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Can you provide the data for your statement that "...but the lines are overloaded at this point..." ?

At what point do you overload 3/16" tubing in terms of volume per unit time (gal/hour or similar)? What does "overloading" mean in practical terms, i.e. maximum recommended Taps before sap volume starts decreasing. A plot of this as you add additional taps above the recommended maximum would be helpful. I'm not sure if a well-constructed study exists for this.

The reason I ask is that I've had great results over 5 seasons on 3/16" tubing from 25-30 taps per line, lines are ~800 feet long measuring 26" of vacuum at the end tap. The first 300' of tubing from the collection tank has 75' of drop. This past season, I added about 5 taps per line and noticed significantly less sap per run and over the course of the season. Next season I think I will conduct my own study.

Thanks for any help you can provide.

Tim Wilmot, the original researcher/developer of 3/16 tubing, said he had a line with 37 taps on it and it performed well. But he did not recommend that many per line because it was, "a long line to have to check for leaks". This was early on with 3/16 tube use. By now most of us using it, myself included, can see a difference in flows between long runs and shorter ones. The small diameter tube can only carry just so much liquid "easily". This is true for any size hose or pipe. Frictional loss comes into play at some point with any fluid movement/transfer. And the steepness of slope is a big factor also. Gravity is a good thing! Well, up until you drop something heavy on your foot. Then, not so much.

Steve

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Originally Posted by Bucket Head

Tim Wilmot, the original researcher/developer of 3/16 tubing, said he had a line with 37 taps on it and it performed well. But he did not recommend that many per line because it was, "a long line to have to check for leaks". This was early on with 3/16 tube use. By now most of us using it, myself included, can see a difference in flows between long runs and shorter ones. The small diameter tube can only carry just so much liquid "easily"…

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This is correct. More taps will work, but less will work better under peak flow. The”optimal“ number of taps will vary based upon the conditions.