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Thanks Bret for a well thought out tutorial and parts list c/o this small scale RO build. Now it's hurry up and wait for next year.
I still have to build my feed tank area which will be in the garage up those stairs in the picture. No rush, I have all year...;)
Find the build info here: https://sites.google.com/site/mattat...osmosis-system
-Tim
Nice tidy setup!
You are welcome and very nice setup - hopefully next year will be a good one
Bret,
Love the unit you designed. Would you have any ideas on how to make it a bit larger? We get about double that amount per day and i'd like to build a unit with as many of the same parts you did. Can we use the same pump and split the flow between 2 sets of filters? How would you preheat the sap and whats an ideal temp? I'm new to RO but would love to try this and have to burn less wood. Thanks
Jeremy
We are looking at building our first RO for the upcoming season. What would be your thoughts about adding a couple more membranes in order to get to a 10 - 12 percent concentrate? Biggest questions is if the pump will maintain the pressure across additional membranes. Thanks for posting this system and any input you have would be appreciated!
If you are looking for a larger RO you may want to search for the one Diesel Pro put together that would be better. The setup I use is really for around 75 taps or 120 gallons or less per day. You could run two setups but then you are at the cost of the larger systems others have built.
Built this same RO and used it for 2 seasons. Works great but has limited capacity. If your are collecting under 100 gallons a day and want to remove 50-60% of your water this system will work great. Can go to higher concentration but your flow rate drops off.
Adding additional membranes will not increase the capacity of this system. There is not enough flow from the pump. If you want more capacity you need to use commercial RO components which are readily available and will not break the bank if you want to build a simple RO.
From my research and experience I have found that once you go above 8-8.5% residential membranes begin to foul quickly. I run mine with 4 membranes and I am looking at possible adding one or two more this year not to increase concentrate but to increase the flow. Not sure if it will work but I think I am going to give it a shot the theory of going through two more membranes with less back pressure should give me the same concentrate level but at a faster rate of process.
Thanks for the info. This will be our first RO, we expect about 100 taps this coming season and was hoping to get to a 10-12% sugar content using RO. Last year was our first try an making more that a pint or two of syrup...we had 65 taps on a very good gravity system....no RO and a homemade block arch evaporator. Needless to say we were overwhelmed and hope to be much better prepared this season.
If you uped the membranes to 200 GPD instead of the 150 GPD would you need a bigger pump and would how much would your GPD rise? Or would it be better to just add 2 more membranes?
The pump should be able to handle the 200gpd membranes but it may be more cost effective to go with an extra 150gpd membrane. This year I am trying to run 6 in series with a 10ml flow restrictor. Hoping to increase rate of process while keeping the concentrate at around 7%.
Not to hijack this thread but what type of chemicals have people used to clean the membranes?
I've used the h2o2 routine, but my sister who is a chemical something or other said i was just using glorified water. How long do the membranes last?
I want to give the system a really good cleaning this year.
SDdave
I have always used a solution of hydrogen peroxide and water: Cleaning the membranes
https://sites.google.com/site/mattat...osmosis-system
This will be my third year with 150gpd membranes.
Bret,
My system is finally up and running! This thing is awesome! However, I have a question... In testing my water, I'm reading a 0.2%. Brand new everything as far as membranes and filter. What can I change to get that to read 0%?
I can't believe how sensitive the valve is c/o output pressure and sugar content! Amazing.
Thanks again,
-Tim
(PS - My initial sap content was 2.3%. It's now a steady 7.3% straight from the barrel.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIX5...ature=youtu.be
I find with my Hanna digital refractometer, If I leave the sap or syrup whatever I'm testing in the stainless test cup, eye or whatever you want to call it for 20 seconds to let the temp level off it will get a better reading. The temp compensation reading is the numbers on the bottom. And after you test your concentrate put a couple drops of permeate in there and slosh it around to get the eye clean then wipe it. Might have a little residue in there. They are pretty finicky. and 0.2% sugar is basically nothing. I bet if you clean it then test it will be 0.0%
That's the ticket! I'm back to 0%. I was rushing it....
Thank you,
-Tim
troynh
glad to hear everything worked out - I did add two additional membranes this year (6 total) and I am getting a process rate of 10 gallons per hour to a 7.5% concentrate starting with 1.5% sap. I installed 3/16" tubing and I have been flooded with sap so this really helps.
Excellent! So that flow resistor is working! This is next years project. lol...
The flow restrictor (150ml) did not work as well as I was hoping I was only getting it to 6% with 6 membranes so I went back to the needle valve. However, another guy shared a pressure relief valve that is more precise and once it is set you are all set. Will be trying it later this year. Here is a link for it:
http://www.sprayerdepot.com/Shop-by-...ves/AA11014300
Thanks for the update! Yeah, the needle valve needs to be babysat every hour or so. I'm finding it likes to wander slightly. Overall though, this setup is the ticket for small scale! :-) Very happy!
-Tim
Better to start with a needle valve, or a flow restrictor? I'm planning on using a single 100gpd membrane to start since I only have 10 taps right now. How to size the restrictor?
I found this site... http://www.purewaterproducts.com/art...ow-restrictors
But I'm sure that's for normal tap water temperatures, and not near freezing temperature sap. That will reduce the flow rate, and then how to calculate the proper restrictor? I'm liking the idea of the restrictor vs babysitting a needle valve.
Also, can you adjust the needle valve by monitoring pressures in the system somewhere, or are you always measuring flow rates instead?
Brett:
Thanks for an excellent overview of a small scale RO system.
I'm pondering something like this for next year.
Can you provide the type of membrane and membrane housing you are using and where they can be found?
thanks
Mark
Thanks Tim.Quote:
Originally Posted by troynh
Mark
This was very helpful. Thanks guys. Wish I found this thread before I started one of my own.
Wobbletop:
With 10 taps a single membrane will do fine. You will just keep recirculating it back into your feed tank and will eventually get up to a 6+ concentrate level. You will try for a 1 part permeate to 3 or 4 parts concentrate. This will keep the membrane from fouling and work much better. You can use a needle valve it will be fine since you will not be creating much back pressure or a flow restrictor. The smallest I found was a 150ml size you might want to go a little larger for recirculating though.
Hodorskib, I built an RO to your specks , I was getting 10 gph . My sap was mostly 1 1/2 % with some from sugar maples at 2 1/2%. On the 1 1/2 % I was getting 6% concentrate , the 2 1/2 %was higher. I used a 150 gph flow restrictor. Would I get a higher % concentrate with a pressure flow valve. Also I am a little confused about the soap to clean the membranes. Or do you just use the Peroxide ?
I greatly appreciate all the information you provided. It was an easy build and saved a ton of time and wood.
Glad it worked out for you. The flow restrictor I tried this year gave me the same results around 6% so I went back to the needle valve. However, another guy who built a system a few years ago sent me a link for a pressure bypass valve and after using it for the last week or so of my season it was worth the extra money. Here is a link for it:
http://www.sprayerdepot.com/Shop-by-...ves/AA11014300
This allows for much better control and the ability to go to 8% and unlike a needle valve once you set it you don't need to keep adjusting.
As for cleaning I will be updating the website as soon as I get a chance but this year I plugged my membranes really bad and needed to think about a better way of keeping them clean. Here is what I came up with after talking to others with similar systems: I will be doing this once a week
1. Change your water filter
2. Open the membrane housings and dump out any liquid in the top - there is usually some slime and gunk especially toward the end of the season
3. Flush with permeate for 20-30 minutes
4. Fill a 5 gallon bucket with warm water and put 1 quart of hydrogen peroxide in
5. Run that through the system recirculating it back into the bucket (just take your concentrate and permeate lines and put in the bucket) and let run for 1 hour
6. Replace the water filter and flush with permeate for 20-30 minutes (leave the water filter in place you will use it for the next run)
This is also what I did at the end of my season then wrapped the membranes in plastic wrap put in a zip lock bag and they are in my beer fridge for next year.
Let me know if you have any other questions: huu133@gmail.com
hi..can you explain the relationship between the pressure valve and the % of the concentrate? How does one affect the other?
You need to install something to create back pressure on the concentrate line. It can be a needle valve, flow restrictor or by-pass valve. This is what forces the water through the membranes. The more back pressure the more water is removed which gives you a higher concentrate. However, the higher the concentrate the less gallons per hour you can process so you have to play around a little to see what works for you. For me the balance this year was between 7 and 7.5% and with 6 membranes I was able to process 10 gallons per hour when the sap was around 50 degrees and 6-7 when below 40 degrees. Hope this makes sense.
Just wanted to chime in and say thanks for these great plans.. I built this system for my tiny hobby setup here in Quebec, Canada. I'm not as deep into the technical yet to determine % sugar yields or flow performance, but i do know it saves me a bunch of hardwood and time!
Here is a photo of the rig on the inside door of my shed.. 3 x 45 gallon drums inside to hold the sap, permeate, and concentrate. There is a small heater to keep the room just the right temp and a bunch of float switches to turn the pump off by relay if the levels are about to run out or overflow.
Attachment 16293
-Jeff
I have had many people send me pics of their setups from the plan but I have to say yours is at the top of the list! That is a nice setup.
Wanted to post a picture of my sugar room earlier but couldn't get it to work.So here it is.Attachment 16335
^^^ Very nice!
wlatrout: very nice set up. Always looking for a nice and neat way for the RO system.
To everyone who has more than 3 membranes in series: What's the advantage? What size of membranes are you using? Operating PSI? GPH of raw sap? I ask because I use the 150 gpd membranes at 125 to 130 PSI and get 9-10 gph of raw sap to around 7%. I do have extra housings and membranes to use, just have never considered adding them; except for another RO setup. More curious than anything.
SDdave
Very nice setup - I have 6 150gpd membranes in series and was taking 1.3% sap to 7-7.5% in a single pass at a rate of about 10 gallons per hour and running at around 145psi. Just be careful on what your membranes are rated for - some are 150 and others are 125.
New to the boards here, but after visiting a couple local sugar houses, I thought, why cant I do this small scale. This discussion is exactly what I was looking for. My Uncle, who has a quaint little sugar shack here in Maine, passed away this year in January and while Id never sugared before, I figured I would try it out. I came to the dance a week or two late, but had fun working his lines. However his stove is way small and I spent too much time burning wood and gas to get my 7.5 gallons so far. The wife now considers me obsessed. Found a cheap stove ($40) that I can fit a roughly 2 x 3 pan to, with plans to modify and use next year. (Looking for a cheap 20-24" x 36" pan for it, and for the right price I will travel or pay shipping)
Then I started thinking RO and ran across hodorskib's RO build on Pinterest which eventually led me here. Awesome discussion and very easily understood. Wife has given in on my idea to build a small scale RO before next season as long as I come up with a way to pay for it. I guess I'll part with a couple of deep sea reels and a couple of collectibles I'm hoarding. Anyway, gonna clear out the garage this year and convert it to my shack for next season. Thanks again, Mark
Thanks! It doesn't hurt that the other side of the shed is a sauna :) Gotta do something while the evaporator is running right?Quote:
Originally Posted by hodorskib
Attachment 16370Attachment 16371
Has anyone looked into the Membrane Solutions ro membranes on EBAY? Investigated online and they are supposed to ptfe-tfc membranes. I know the parts list shows Axeon membranes. I'm slowly aquiring parts to build the ro this fall but don't want to drop money on a product that isn't quality or applicable. It appears they can operate in the 125-150 psi range. And if applicable could you plumb in a couple of the 10"x3" 300 or 400 gpd to increase flow over the 150's? New to this technology, so I'm asking here, cause the only dumb question is the one you don't ask and then end up paying for later. Thxs, Mark
Just checked them out and they should work - just don't exceed the maximum psi.