newbie questions... (Long)

If this doesnt belong here I apologize, but I thought i would place it here so people closer to my region would see it.

Let me start out by saying this is my third year doing syrup, 2008, 2010, and 2016. To the knowledge of the previous owner of the property whose family has owned it since the 20's, these trees had never been tapped. They are my yard trees, there is 10 total, on 2 acres. I am in S.E. Michigan in Lenawee county.

I am sorta self teaching so i know i may not be doing everything correct. But i want to try and get my processes and equipment right, before looking for more trees to tap. I have uncles in the U.P. that have tapped and so I kinda got going with just some "words of advice" and reading stuff on the internet.

I use snap on lid 4gallon buckets, i drilled 2 holes per lid, and my drop tubes fit very tightly in the holes so as to keep rain water and debris out of my sap. I run 2 tapes per tree, and usually tap on the south side. I try to stay away from old tap holes, so far hasnt been an issue since this is only my third year and the years have been spaced out. But if i tap more regularly i may run in to an issue. I use a regular drill bit, and drill at a slight upward angle, and slightly tap my taps in the trunk and place the tubing on the taps. right now i use a mix of metal "shark fin" type taps and i slip the tubing over them and secure with a zip tie. just this year i tapped two of my trees with the smaller plastic blue taps, and those trees only have 1 tap each. So i have 10 trees tapped, and 18 taps total.

Now to my questions....

In past years it always seemed like I was getting in at the tail end of the run. I do know that in 2010 i tapped march 1 and had 40 gallons in a week or so and then seemed like the sap yellowed and i pulled the taps. So i figured I was at the tail end. in 2008 i remember getting around 40 gallons, enough to make 1 gallon of syrup.

So this year I decided I was going to try and tap early (Im not good at judging when to tap), So i tapped on Feb 17th. By the weekend i have 23 gallons and boiled down my first batch on the 20th and 21st. During that time most of the trees ran ok, some better than others, but my biggest tree ran about 2 gallons of yellow sap and then stopped, the others have fluctuated up and down with the weather, but this tree stopped and has not produced another drop. If i remember right it did this in years past, is the problem in my tapping? or a bad tree? tree seems healthy and strong, runs sap when i initially tap. I had another tree that ran so-so, but always ran clear, the other day it had about 1 gallon of yellow sap in it, i dumped it and thought it would be done too, however it has started running good sap again. Is this normal?

I also have been wondering if my use of a regular bit is somehow leaving shavings in the hole and plugging the taps restricting flow? But a few of my good trees get tapped the same way and they continue to run good with the weather.

I'm sure I have lots more questions, and I have been reading a lot. But some of this i would like an actual opinion on, not just what I read in a book or online. Like I said i am hoping to get my process and equipment all in good standing before attempting to tap more trees. I am thinking at the very least i need a tapping bit, and to get all my taps the same.

Has it rained at all during this process? Usually when you get yellow sap it's really only some rain water getting into your bucket. I have a lot of taps run through 5 gallon bucket lids like you describe and some rain water still works it's way in on bad days.

It did rain once, however all the trees that ran during that time had clear sap in them except the one, and I don't think that bucket was leaking, could have been but if it was it was the only one, because the big tree that ran yellow from almost the start and that has no longer dripped a drop, had same bucket setup with water standing on top of lid, and not a drop inside

If its the same tree all the time it may have a punky core? Possible Not sure. You could just exclude it or keep tapping and only take the sap when its clear dump it when its not. Also taste it. That will help you identify if its water or sap.

Well I had a good run last night and this morning, and still not a drop, nothing, not even yellow sap in over a week, should I just pull these taps?

I, too, wonder whether my tapping technique costs me in sap production. I use a regular (cleaned) drill bit, slight upward angle, drill in, leave it on forward, but take my time pulling it back out, trying to pull out more wood shavings.

What kind of maples are you tapplng? The inconsistent drippers sound like reds to me.

reds indeed

Reds are known for their inconsistency on buckets. That's why those who tap a lot of them usually have them on vacuum to boost production. When I tapped reds to buckets I found there was a lot of variability between trees. There were reliable trees and others that would hardly drip at all and this was consistent over a few years. After a few years you may learn which ones you can count on. Tap the dependable ones and skip the stingy ones or go to vacuum if you have enough to make it worth your while.

I'm not exactly sure what type of maples they are, I aim to figure that out but I'm not good at figuring that out, any way to tell before trees bud out and get leaves?

I ended up and pulled the taps on the large tree since it hasn't dripped a drop in over a week and the only sap from it this year was yellow. I will continue to watch the tap holes just to see if they start for some reason, but I doubt it, I had a great run from yesterday and through today and that tree is still dry as a bone.

Finished off my second batch of the season tonight, got a gallon of syrup from 44 gallons of sap

I wouldn't worry about slightly yellow sap if it tastes okay, the steam smells okay when you boil a test sample, and the syrup tastes okay when you finish that test sample. I wouldn't pull taps until all of your trees had quit running and the nights were always above freezing. And I would post pics of the trees here so the "experts" can tell you what kind of trees you have. If you can show the bark from a distance and from about two feet away, and also show the buds from about one foot away if you can, they'll tell you what to look for. I can only tell by looking at the mature leaves, but that's probably because I never see anything but reds around here.

heres a couple pics of the tree in question, to tall to get pics of budsAttachment 13429Attachment 13430

also from everything i posted before, about how i'm doing things and my processes, next year i would like to expand and tap some more trees, what would be the best thing for me to upgrade at this point? taps? tapping bit? ive also thought about connecting my trees together that run in a row to collect all in one bucket, but my concern is what if one tree starts getting funky before the rest, wont this taint everything if it all flows in to one collection point?

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Originally Posted by 870ExpressMag

also from everything i posted before, about how i'm doing things and my processes, next year i would like to expand and tap some more trees, what would be the best thing for me to upgrade at this point? taps? tapping bit? ive also thought about connecting my trees together that run in a row to collect all in one bucket, but my concern is what if one tree starts getting funky before the rest, wont this taint everything if it all flows in to one collection point?

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I'm surprised that nobody has commented on your tree photos. Maybe more photos of more trees will draw some comments. I can't rule out reds.

Yes, you run the risk of tainting a whole batch. If you don't have that many trees, it's better to just collect at each one, but commercial processors must just not worry about it. Maybe that's why commercial syrup doesn't taste as good as hobby batch syrup. Then again, if your trees are reds and you can draw sap out by geting a vacuum on your tubing, you'll have so much more sap that throwing some tainted sap out might not be an issue.

Using 5/16" taps and a good tapping bit is a good idea. I use 5/16" drop tubes down to green glass jugs on the ground for collecting sap and we visit those often during a run, but we have time to do that.

It's hard for me to ID from your pictures. I'm also leaning toward reds but am probably totally wrong. The tree looks young and bark often changes as the tree ages. Do you remember when the helicopters fall? You might as well wait until spring when the tree leafs out if you can't get a close look at the winter buds or can't find a leaf or two under the tree to help with your ID.

With as few trees as you're tapping I'd probably put my money into better boiling equipment. A hydrometer, maybe a hard copy of the north american maple syrup producer's manual would also be on my list.

One thought I had about your current system. How tight are the lids on your collection buckets? Are they loose enough to allow built up pressure to escape? It's the pressure gradient that encourages sap flow. High in the tree, low outside the tree. If pressure builds up in your buckets as sap flows into them,I'm thinking it may eventually be enough to stop or at least decrease the flow. You might want to drill another small hole in the side of the bucket

I think running a few taps into a single container is not a bad idea. If you're tapping all the same species in the same location, chances are they will all turn at the same time. I don't think a bucket will be big enough though. I think you might want a much bigger container. I've had a single tree give 5 gallons of sap in 24 hours when conditions are right. Bigger is better.

i had a tree do that to me a couple years ago....talked to a forrestry guy and he said it could be stressed and not healthy.......i haven't tapped it since..

this tree is a red on the side of the road, i was using open buckets, so it could have been rainwater too.

The tree in question looks like a silver to me. Bark alone is not a sure indicator though. The buds would tell what it is. Also, the leaves of silver maples are quite distinct, look up a picture and see if that is what you remember on that tree last summer.

I 2nd MichiganPhil.

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Originally Posted by happy thoughts

It's hard for me to ID from your pictures. I'm also leaning toward reds but am probably totally wrong. The tree looks young and bark often changes as the tree ages. Do you remember when the helicopters fall? You might as well wait until spring when the tree leafs out if you can't get a close look at the winter buds or can't find a leaf or two under the tree to help with your ID.

With as few trees as you're tapping I'd probably put my money into better boiling equipment. A hydrometer, maybe a hard copy of the north american maple syrup producer's manual would also be on my list.

One thought I had about your current system. How tight are the lids on your collection buckets? Are they loose enough to allow built up pressure to escape? It's the pressure gradient that encourages sap flow. High in the tree, low outside the tree. If pressure builds up in your buckets as sap flows into them,I'm thinking it may eventually be enough to stop or at least decrease the flow. You might want to drill another small hole in the side of the bucket

I think running a few taps into a single container is not a bad idea. If you're tapping all the same species in the same location, chances are they will all turn at the same time. I don't think a bucket will be big enough though. I think you might want a much bigger container. I've had a single tree give 5 gallons of sap in 24 hours when conditions are right. Bigger is better.

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I get so much wind, theres no way I could find a leaf and be able to match it right now to that tree, i will have to wait until they leaf out and check it that way. As far as the pressure building in the buckets, i guess i never thought of that, the buckets do have the snap on lids, some have o-rings in in the lids, some dont, and the tubing going through the lids fits tightly enough that it will hold water on the lids, maybe i will leave the lids cracked and not fully snapped during a non windy/rainy period and see what happens.
As far as the expansion of equipment, i would like to at least get all my taps the same, right now i use a mix, and get a tapping bit. I agree i think better boiling equipment would be a good idea, i spend a lot of hours watching turkey fryers. I will look into that book also. Now on the hydrometer, I already have a hydrotherm, but it seems most prefer a hydrometer, why is that? the hydrotherm seems easier to me.

Michiganphil and Ed R---i did research the leaves and dont remember seeing any leaves with as distinct of shape as the silvers, but i probably didnt pay as close of attention, my plans is to identify all of my trees this year, so i know what im working with

Definitely not a sugar.

My silvers all have relatively smooth bark and are on low ground, usually wet, sometimes referred to as swamp maples.

The bark looks to me like a Red.

Here is the bark of a known red:


http://forestry.about.com/od/forestp...-and-Trunk.htm

re hydrotherms. I think their use is more popular across the border. The reason I've seen stated to discourage their use here in the US is that there is no way to standardize/ calibrate them. If it works for you, then use it and spend your money elsewhere as you're only making syrup for your own use.

The one concern I'd have is with what someone else mentioned earlier about them containing mercury. I doubt any new models contain that but if yours is older and you think yours does then don't use it and dispose of it safely as hazardous waste. Mercury on the loose would make any syrup it contaminated unusable and you'd also have a big biohazard on your hands. Mercury contaminated syrup would also need to be handled as hazardous waste and would need special disposal. I can't believe we used to play with the liquid stuff as kids in science class. :o.Times have sure changed!

well my hydrotherm would have been purchased brand new round 2008-2009, i would think that would be new enough to not contain mercury

I think you're probably good. They've been phasing out mercury use in thermometers for more than a few years. You'd also be able to tell by the silver liquid.

The liquid is red in the thermometer, outside
Of package says made in USA

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Originally Posted by Tweegs

Definitely not a sugar.

My silvers all have relatively smooth bark and are on low ground, usually wet, sometimes referred to as swamp maples.

The bark looks to me like a Red.

Here is the bark of a known red:


http://forestry.about.com/od/forestp...-and-Trunk.htm

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I agree, we started out tapping some silvers on the neighbors property that was flooded from a small creek every winter. We would start tapping on ice and finish the season collecting buckets with waders on.:cry: Some would do really well and some never produced a drop. Luckily the neighbor to the south has sugars that are much easier to get to and lets us tap his. Can't thank him enough:)

Reds also do well in low ground, like 2' above the water table in a cedar swamp. I've got a lot of them. But that bark doesn't look like a red.

I tap some sugars and reds but mostly silvers...my 2 reds do what yoyrs do...yellow sap, not alot and buds open 1st. I use the yellow sap as long as it smells and tatses ok...when them 2 reds stop I know the season is close to done...