You do you, but I don't think anyone (very few) have stopped using RO once they see the benefits.
Why not run RO at the same time as you are boiling? The RO output can feed your pan or sap tank directly.
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You do you, but I don't think anyone (very few) have stopped using RO once they see the benefits.
Why not run RO at the same time as you are boiling? The RO output can feed your pan or sap tank directly.
Lol, I can see how one may feel that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy VT
What you say makes a lot of sense to me. I can give it a try. Keep it on a small scale. I do have a collection barrel right outside the garage and I have put a hole through my garage with a pipe through it, so that I can pump directly from the collection barrel into the RO raw sap barrel, so I can try and just RO what I get from the collection barrel, which based on last year, was 10 to 20 gallons each day. It should be more this year as I have 24 more taps running into it. I can start it when I get up to collect and use the concentrate part way through the day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy VT
I would not have to flush as much and can use my one existing permeate barrel for the flush and have two other containers for the waste flush. If it doesn’t work, I have not lost anything and it does work and I get comfortable with it, maybe I could process more sap through the RO.
I will not buy another pump or any additional membranes, the 400 and two 150’s will be good enough. I have everything already set up to start tomorrow if I had to.
Thanks for the great suggestion.
I will give ROing a try as Andy suggested and if it pans out, and if it works well, I will see if I can somehow rig something next year to feed the concentrate to my feed tank. It is not a good fit the way I am set up now.Quote:
Originally Posted by wobbletop
Swingpure, I have been thinking right along that you might be biting off too much at once. Start the season with your new divided pan, learn everything you need to know to run it smooth and be comfortable with it. Then, and only then start playing with your RO. A little at a time and you will figure it out. There is no rule that says you have to RO all your sap. You could do small amounts and mix the concentrate with your raw sap until you are comfortable running it full time. Nobody will crucify you for it. Running the RO sounds a lot more complicated then it really is and learning it (part time) will help. You have jumped into this craziness with both feet and everything else you could find. Slow down, take a deep breath, and enjoy all the new equipment you purchased. Little steps will still get you there!
Yep, what Z/man said! Glad to hear you'll keep what you've bought. You'll know when you're ready to try it out; no need to sweat it. Maybe you'll want to up your permeate storage (not sure) but that's all! Every gallon of permeate you end up making will be a gallon not to boil. Maybe you'll make a lot, maybe a little, maybe none; it's all good! And report all your results of course because I'm going to get into RO for 2024.
To start with, I would just recycle your concentrate back into your sap tank. You can start it whenever you want, several hours before or just when you start up the evaporator. There is a lot of emphasis on getting a certain concentrate flow or concentrate level when you are just trying to reduce your evaporator time. I will say that you will be hooked on watching all that water come off before evaporation.
If you have a head tank, run an overflow line from it to your storage tank. You can then just run RO without worrying about matching flow with the evaporator. Just run the RO to take off the maximum amount of permeate and not how high of brix in your concentrate. On some this allows the RO to run a faster flow and keeps the membrane cleaner and thus takes off more permeate.
Thank you for all of the suggestions. I do feel better that I will only RO when time permits. I think I can manage ROing the sap from the one collection barrel, but if it really complicates things, I can stop at any time.
I do agree that the key for me this year is to learn how to work with the divided pan and if I can do that and if I have some time to RO, I will. I realize there is so much I do not know about divided pans and do not yet know the questions to ask about it.
Today I flushed out all of my collection and storage barrels and other storage vessels. They were in remarkably clean shape.
I also played with how the transfer tank would sit on my ATV. It actually took me a few different setups to find one I liked. I will have to build a ramp so that my ATV sits higher in relation to my barrels, so that I just have to open the tank valve and it unloads into the barrel.
I also decided that I will unload some raw sap into 5 gallon pails. I wasn’t going to do that, but I did find last year that each morning I could take a chunk of ice out of the pails, nature’s RO. It will just mean more cleanup time, as I rinsed out each pail at the end of each day.
https://share.icloud.com/photos/01cH...hWmt7E2pmGJSNw
https://share.icloud.com/photos/02a3...hx7oI1ubmVFihw
You will offload your atv tank much quicker if you use your pump. (No ramps) Stick it in the tank and you will empty that tank in minutes.
You are 100% correct. I actually had purchased a 1100 gph (18 gpm) bilge pump that would fit in the narrow opening at the top of the tank. Essentially it would take 2 minutes to empty the entire 35 gallon tank.Quote:
Originally Posted by Z/MAN
I tested draining 5 gallons from the 15 to 10 gallon mark and it took 4 minutes 25 seconds, to drain 5 gallons. So a little less than a half hour to drain the entire tank. A no brainer. I ordered a spare bilge pump just for back up.
This bilge pump needs an 1 1/8” id hose which I found out is a rare cat in these parts, so I ordered one on Amazon. Not to give Amazon a plug, but when you live away from the big centers, Amazon can fill the gap of things you want, sometimes with next day delivery on certain items.
https://share.icloud.com/photos/035Q...FdrRk_zfy86zYA
i can't help but wounder if your new bilge pump and hose are food safe ? your are going to be making a lot of syrup for just your home use alone so i expect you will be selling or giving a lot away. just food for thought.
The hose is food safe for sure, and the bilge pump is made of food safe plastic. I used to fixate on food safe pumps, but then I discovered that a number of people on the site use a number of transfer pumps, both large and small, that are not officially food safe.
The brand new bilge pump type, is being used by others on this site with no issues.
None of my syrup will end up on store shelves, however my grandkids will be eating it and I trust that the syrup will be just fine.
All of my collection barrels, pails and tanks are all officially food safe, everything from the pan onwards is stainless steel and I wash much of it, on a daily basis.
That doesn't make it right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Swingpure;405667 [COLOR=#ff0000
I made myself some drill bit depth stops today out of dowel. I am not sure how well they will stand up, so I made a few.
https://share.icloud.com/photos/092W...FEva-7rDIHJpVw
I also received some maple related Amazon deliveries today, including a digital thermometer, because the one last year was done at the end of the season and an in-line on/off switch with quick connect ends.
If I am hearing you correctly...everything "upstream" of the evaporator and everything "downstream" is all food safe. By your own admission you used to "fixate" on food safe pumps. But because other guys are using cheap Chinese Harbor Freight pumps of questionable pedigree that are not food safe, you're OK also using them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Swingpure
Just my 2 cents, do your grandkids a favor and find a food safe pump. They are easy to find and really not that much.
You could also use some tubing instead of the dowel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Swingpure
Until this day, what I didn't know, was that there WERE such a thing as food safe pumps (excluding sump pumps). Anyone got an example? I procured stainless water transfer pumps.
Lol, I tried finding friends that had old 5/16 tubing, just a couple of inches of it and no luck. You can’t buy just a couple of inches, and it was $10 to buy a small roll of it. I may end up doing that if the dowel does not work. I had the dowel on hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by BoerBoel
My first season (last year), I was going to buy a shurflo food grade pump, but for Christmas, I was given as a present a different pump that was not officially food grade. It was a generous gift. I spent time researching all of the components that the sap would touch and they were all food grade. I used it last season with no issues, but it was slow.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigschuss
I discovered that a friend who has been making syrup for many years and at a greater volume than me had been using a sump pump to transfer his sap. It does it dry quickly. The components that will touch the sap are all stainless steel. He has used it for years with no issues. It is not officially food grade.
The bilge pump that started this conversation was also recommended to me. Everything that the sap is food grade plastic and the sap would race through this pump. The people that have used it have had no issues with it.
I am a by the book kind of guy in almost everything I do, so not having a food grade pump is different for me, but I do trust the people that have recommended them to me.
Other than Shurflo pumps what other choices are there?
Andy VT started another thread specifically on the food grade pump issue and I think that is a good place to discuss that particular topic and I will be gladly discuss and learn on that thread.
Earlier this year I lost my tension hooks and could not find them and later with a new pair I lost them, but eventually found them in the leaf cover just a few feet away from where I thought imhad placed them. Today a month or so later I went with a leaf blower trying to find the original pair. I started off where I thought I might have left them and no luck, I then blew leaves where I walked and still no luck. I will eventually find them, but it might not be until next summer.
After I temporarily lost the second temporary tension hooks, I tied bright orange and yellow construction ribbons/tape to it so it would stand out in the leaf litter. I used different colours for each end of the tension hook to make it easy to grab the end you want to hook up first.
I heard on the weather report today that you may be expecting some snow in the next several days once it leaves the Dakotas. Sounds like you may get a significant amount too, good luck.
Our forecast keeps changing. At the moment the snow will be north of us, but this morning it was forecasting about six inches. We have had an amazing October and November. It has really saved on the firewood. I will have bonus left over for the evaporator if need be, although it will not be split wrist sized.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pdiamond
https://share.icloud.com/photos/002f...am6TVoK7ExHx1Q
Nice eclipse here this morning!
https://share.icloud.com/photos/072u...60KWAWs4WxRdrA
Preliminary research suggests that warm falls and dry summers are associated to some degree with lower sugar content in the spring. Trees have to maintain their living tissues later in the fall when the temps are above freezing. In doing so they use up some of their stored sugars for respiration when it is warm. Since the leaves are gone, they can't make more to replenish the lost sugar.
Fortunately, the correlation is not real strong, and there are multiple interacting factors to consider. Making a prediction from this is difficult, and liable to be incorrect. The science is just not mature enough yet.
The winter side of fall arrives here this Saturday. Today I was trying to do the last of the things I can do now to be ready for the maple season when it starts. Here it is usually near the beginning of March. Today I was putting away my collection barrels and other storage tanks and vessels.
Including the capacity of the collection barrels, I could store up to 600 gallons of sap and 150 gallons of permeate. I will never have to hold 600 gallons at any one time, but it is good to know if I get a couple big flow days, I can handle it.
Last year I don’t think I had even a single high flow day, although as I have mentioned before, locals said it was a poor year.
As we move into winter, I am hopeful that my divided pan, float box, base stack, base stack plate, 36” double wall pipe and pan lid arrives in January or before. Once the base stack arrives, we will cut the hole in the metal roof and make the supports for the double wall pipe.
I am not sure if the plugs for the divided pan comes with the pan. (As I understand it, when you are finished for the night, you plug off the openings at the end of the divided runs to help maintain the gradient.)
I can see most of my lines from my yard and today I could almost see he sap flowing down the lines. Four months to go!
As homework this winter, I will watch every divided pan video I can.
Gary your weekend forecast is almost identical to ours.
Be safe driving! I got my winter tires on yesterday.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pdiamond
I just see each day of winter, as one day closer to sap flowing.
It has been a good fall, and as I mentioned before, I did not use as much firewood as normal.
These are my lines, some are on my lot, some are on my adjacent neighbour’s lots, and some about 6 lots away from me. As you can there are a lot of trees.
The first pic has a drop of about 30 to 35’, the second pic has a drop of about 80’. The lines on the second pic should be racing with sap if I tap them correctly.
https://share.icloud.com/photos/072Y...CBRXKw-m1-a6bg
https://share.icloud.com/photos/0bc-...z9IdBj-fEeriLg
This is fascinating - I never knew this. I bet it helps explain something I've noticed - that the further north producers seem to have sweeter sap. Two posts down, Swingpure talks about how winter is arriving in his neck of the woods. That's far from true for me, and far far far from true further south.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrTimPerkins
Thanks for sharing!
Gabe
I walked my 3 new lines today on the steep hill. The main purpose was to remove as many tripping hazards as I could so they would not be a problem when I am either walking or snow shoeing in the snow.
It was a good thing I did, because besides removing the tripping hazards, I found four spots where branches had come down in a recent wind storm we had, that had lowered the line, but fortunately did not break it.
I also made some slight height adjustments on some of the lines, just to improve the slopes of the lines.
I plan to walk the lines at least once a month and hopefully twice a month, mostly to break a trail in the snow, but also to check the lines.
A few questions:Quote:
Originally Posted by DRoseum
For the first flush prior to processing the sap, I will be using filtered and UV’d lake water.
How many gallons of that water will I need to do a proper initial flush?
Will all of that be waste after it has flushed the membranes?
Let’s say the first time I run the RO is with 50 gallons of sap, in the perfect world, it will produce 25 gallons of permeate.
Is that enough for the flush?
Is that permeate waste after the flush or can it use it again for another flush?
I guess after the flush, you have to wash it with a combination of either permeate and soap or water and soap. Is that all waste? How many gallons of soap and water/permeate is need for the soap wash?
Thanks
Do no reuse flush water/ permeate. Once you use it, discard of it.
Use MOST of your permeate each day for flushing. It will really help keep your system performing best. If you get 25, use it. If you get 50, use it. Even when needle valve is wide open on a flush cycle, you will get some permeate flowing out. I run that permeate trickle right back into permeate tank i am drawing from to prolong the flush.
Ro soap is NAOH. It's a base solution and there are instructions for how to mix it up before use. Goggles and gloves are a must. Most indicate a PH around 11 (check membrane limits as well). RO bucket and mattatock madness site have good cleaning instructions. Basically recirc that for a while and then flush liberally with as much permeate as you can, ensuring your PH returns to neutral. You won't need to wash daily if you are running your RO with low recovery rates on the membranes (recovery rate per membrane = permeate out / inlet flow) and are flushing regularly with liberal amounts of permeate. Probably a couple washes per season and one at year end is good depending how much sap you run thru it etc.
Initial rinse of new membranes requires a fair amount of water. Be sure to have a pre-filter in your housing. The membrane manufacturers typically specify how long to flush them for when brand new. Most residential membranes say 1 hr. With 3 membranes (400gpd + 2 x 150gpds) in series running 1 hr --> 700gpd/24hrs = 30 gallons...I'd recommend 50 gal or more.
Thank you very much, that is helpful.Quote:
Originally Posted by DRoseum
Where am I going to get 50 gallons of water pure enough for flushing?
You can use tap water. If using city water with chlorine in it, be sure to use an active carbon block 5 micron pre-filter for that initial flush.
thanks...my city water does indeed have chlorine in it. I'll pick up some of those filters
There is no chlorine in my water. I will buy a 50’ extension to my water hose so I can reach my RO.Quote:
Originally Posted by DRoseum
Thanks
Gary
Again thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by DRoseum
I was in the garage tonight going through my head what I need to do all this. I will need my 55 gallon raw sap barrel, my 55 gallon concentrate barrel, my 55 gallon permeate barrel, my 40 gallon barrel with a rain barrel spigot and hose for the flushed fluids and another one to hold the soap solution, I have a 16 gallon barrel and a 27 gallon gallon barrel for that.
My soap says ph11 for daily washes and ph12 for mid season and end of the season washes and says to flush 200 gallons of water/permeate after the soap wash.
I will have a rain barrel spigot on the 40 gallon waste water barrel and will connect a dedicated 50’ hose to it and have it drain while I am flushing in the 200 gallons into it.
I still have to read how to do the wash. Unfortunately the instructions sheets that came with my membranes were thrown out with the packaging.
I have my raw sap barrel raised above the Aquatec pump, but I will have to trust that the Aquatec pump will be able to draw the permeate up from the permeate barrel for flushing. I could raise the permeate barrel, but then the output of the RO system would have to be able pump up the permeate to the barrel.
There is no snow on the ground at the moment, but we will have a little overnight. Right now in our forecast we could receive 50 cms (20”) of snow between Thursday and Monday. I doubt it, but it will be a dramatic change from the current snow free landscape.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pdiamond
I think you have a decent amount of snow heading your way as well.
When I see the snow, it will be the start of the pre season for the maple run. Approximately 112 days to go before the sap flows here.
https://share.icloud.com/photos/0411...3IDuDM36FCISIg
A 5 gallon bucket is all you need for soap wash. Just recirculate for an hour and then let it sit a bit. Put all 3 hoses in that bucket when recirculating.
As for flush water... keep the first gallon or 2 and check sugar content. Might be worth throwing into your boil.. the rest, don't worry about a tank, just dispose of it down the drain or out on the ground. You will want to neutralize soap wash solution and that rinse water to safely dispose of it.
ThanksQuote:
Originally Posted by DRoseum
Do you check the ph with ph paper?
Do you neutralize it with water or some other solution?
Thanks
Gary
We've got about 2
We've got about 2 inches so far. According to the weather report it's supposed to snow all week.