New grades article in maple digest [Archive]

red maples

12-05-2010, 09:01 PM

OK so I am fine with new names although it seems a little wordy. what exactly will need to be on the bottles just the name right? ex. Golden Maple syrup (new name for GR A light)not really sure about that "golden"... or does it have to state Golden maple syrup with color not less then 75% Tc and a delicate taste (I like "delicate maple flavor" but too many words)

ah... what does "Tc" mean? Color I assume? What consumer will know what Tc means?

Oh and why have everything grade A? It seems redundant beacause everythingis grade A. although I like that Grade B is not the outcast step child anymore!!!! to me Grade B is just as good as the rest.

And why can't you sell mersh(new name ...processing grade) retail? I had some this that was just a hint off for what ever reason and I didn't want to call it "B" it still tasted OK ...lowered the price just a bit and it sold like crazy. people were upset when I ran out of that.

And is there a limit to the color of Very dark(or what used to be Grade B) I know other states limit that but NH once its grade B it can go out of the limit that vermont uses as long it doesn't have and off flavors. I know mine gets a real deep red color???

Will there be room for state to state or USA to CAN. for individual guidelines or will all have to follow the exact guidelines?

I like the changes and think there needs to be international standards but just a few questions thats all. still got some time before 2013. the projected time year the grade system will change.

Haynes Forest Products

12-05-2010, 10:12 PM

So if I make something that is made from boiling down Maple tree sap and it comes out tasting like a cross between Yeager Mister and pond scum. I put it in bottles and people buy it Can I use 100 % pure Maple Syrup Grade A CRAP

3rdgen.maple

12-05-2010, 11:06 PM

Haynes it might just taste like crap cause of that food grade toilet brush you use to clean pans with.

Killington Maple

12-06-2010, 06:05 AM

I must say that I don't like change. What is wrong with the existing grading system? I can remember as a kid, It was Fancy, A,B, And C grades and you could sell C grade to anyone and didn't have big government telling you that you couldn't.
And what about all the labels that many of us have purchased to properly label our products? These will once again have to be changed.
Before you know it they will be telling us how many days a week we can boil and at what hours!

DrTimPerkins

12-06-2010, 06:43 AM

Get these idiots that don't know a thing about syrup out of our lives!....Time for all the syrupmakers to come together to boycott the new grading system!

Seems like it might be a good idea to take a stab at learning what the new system is before boycotting it. The proposed system does have several benefits, and although I know everyone is busy, about the only downside is that it requires you to spend 5-10 min to learn it.

I haven't personally had anything to do with developing the new grading system, but I have watched from the sideline and provided my opinion when asked. I do support it. It has been a 7 year process, that was developed BY the maple industry, not by outsiders. I don't believe the USDA and Canadian equivalent knew about the effort until about 6 months ago. Most of the people who have been involved in this grade system review have more years of experience in maple than just about anyone here. It is a scientifically-based system, with consumer research, testing and input considered at different stages.

I believe the impetus for considering making a change was two-fold:
- the differences in grades and nomenclature are confusing to consumers (fancy in some places, light-amber in others, AA in Canada). That means you had to spend time educating every customer. If they bought syrup in NY one year, and in VT the next, they would have to learn a new system to some extent.
- the names we use (light amber, dark amber) refer to color of syrup or to a nonsensical grade (what is Grade B...not a color, not a flavor), but what we sell is flavor. The new system uses color and flavor descriptors to make it easier for the consumer to understand what they are getting.

Tc is light transmittance. I agree that this point wasn't explained well in the distributed information.

Grade B to many consumers means that it is an inferior product. Therefore it is being dropped.

I don't believe it is legal to sell commercial syrup directly to consumers in quantities of less than 5 gallons. This is because commercial syrup (by definition) can frequently include off-flavors. So you are already being told what you can and can't do in this category. If you happen to have some dark syrup that is too dark for consumer sale (Commerical), but it still tastes good with no off-flavors, the acceptable technique is to blend it with a little lighter syrup to bring it up to the point where the color is acceptable for consumer sale....this doesn't affect the flavor all that much -- it'll still taste quite strong. The problem with selling commercial syrup is that what you sell may be fine, but what your neighbor has is not, but it is still legally called the same thing. The range of flavor and off-flavor in commercial syrup is just too large. I believe the new system will allow the sale of what we now call Commercial as long as it has no objectionable off-flavor.

In any case, most of the proposed changes are not terribly radical....just different names and one less syrup class (consumers can't distinguish the fine differences). It makes the system simpler, with descriptive names to assist consumer understanding. That's about it.

Finally, you may think...what's wrong with the old way? That has served the maple industry for over a hundred years right? Actually no....the system changed in the mid-1970s, and has since then had a few tweaks here and there. So what we're using now isn't all that old...it wasn't handed down by the Pilgrims and definitely isn't carved in stone. If the system has problems and needs to be tweaked or changed....join the conversation to improve things.

Killington Maple

12-06-2010, 07:12 AM

DrTimPerkins

12-06-2010, 07:43 AM

Dr. Tim,
As you can see I removed the previous post because of it's strong wording. I still don't like changes. The general public is now used to the existing grading system (or at least most of them) and now we'll have to start over with new standards that will, potentially confuse them.
I believe in keeping it simple and keeping what we've already have.

No offense taken. It is fine if you don't like the changes, and nobody is trying to deprive you of providing input. Best to get informed about what it being suggested and why, and making recommendations on what it should be.

The new standards are, in large part, meant to reduce confusion. It is less important to those who sell locally to their neighbors than it is to those that cater to out of state (mail order, web order, retail crossing state, provincial or international jurisdictions). The number of syrup classes has been reduced (although I argued that we could get away with even fewer that what is recommended), which also helps reduce confusion. The light transmittance breakpoints are very easy to remember compared to the old system. Altogether, it is a simpler system that has more information to help consumers pick what they want. We should remember to focus on what the consumer wants....not what is easiest for us.

Haynes Forest Products

12-06-2010, 09:19 AM

I really dont mind that they are "Simplifying" the grading system It reminds me when the Government got into regulating the meat industry when it came to the types and cuts of meat. It wasnt for the saftey of the consumer. It was to control an industry. After they had there way the industry came out with all sorts of new cuts of meat clouding the rules:confused:

I will predict that as soon as the rules are set in stone and lables are printed and products are on the store shelves things will be Bastardized. Small producers will come up with a cute labels that they made on their computer and sell it at a farmers market. Then what?

I just hope they will leave the little guy alone. Like the car industry They have standards that they must follow. But that doesnt mean you cant go out and cobble a car together out of all sorts of parts and take your friends and family for a drive. I understand that SELLING that car as a production model to the public is a differant story. Heck you can even sell it to your neighbor. I dont want the Nanny state to come knocking on my door asking for a paper trail on every drop of syrup I produce.

I think this bunch in control right now want to be just like the European Union. And that is a disaster...............So much so its dying under all the useless rules that "WE" are now going to bail them out:mad:

DrTimPerkins

12-06-2010, 09:41 AM

This is NOT a government driven change. It was proposed and developed entirely within the maple industry. There is flexibility to allow producers and packers to put other things on the labels as long as the required descriptors are also on there.

I have conflicting feelings about the "little guy." While it is absolutely possible for anyone to make maple syrup that is safe, it only takes one person who does something wrong (or stupid) to cause harm to the entire industry. Is it OK to let the person who makes only 5 gal of syrup a year to slide by without ANY safety considerations simply because they don't make or sell much syrup? In doing research on lead in maple syrup I can definitively tell you that it was frequently the "little guys" who had the highest lead concentration in their syrup, because they were using the oldest equipment, didn't go to any conferences to get information about how to keep lead in syrup low, and didn't want to replace any equipment ever because "it ain't killed me yet." I've seen syrup with so much lead in it that it had a grey tinge to it...and exceeded the safety regulations by 10x or more. That same attitude is pretty common....why buy that food grade tank when that stock tank (non-food grade) or the garbage can (made from regrind plastic) "hasn't killed me yet" and it's $20 cheaper. The maple industry is pretty lucky in that our product is boiled, killing most microbes, and the water activity is so low in syrup that very few microbes can grow in it, and that we don't normally use a lot of chemicals (although that is changing quickly too). However I can promise you that if a couple of consumers get harmed from some accidental (or just plain stupid) contamination of syrup, that two things will happen....1) syrup prices will drop like a stone and 2) regulators will definitely demand new rules and people WILL be forced out of business. I guess because of that I think that even the "little guy" should be expected to adhere to some minimum level of safety standards if they sell any syrup. If you give it away or consume it all yourself...maybe not. Finally, it's better that the maple industry work these things out themselves before being forced to do things (which would undoubtedly be far more stringent) by regulators.

red maples

12-06-2010, 11:32 AM

I have to agree with The Doc on this one100%. I have been in the restaurant bussiness for many years and I have seen some pretty aweful stuff wth food. Most of it to save a buck!! Hotel are a bit more on top of things because they owned by the big corps. But the mom and pop places... These people have been through food safety classes have serve safe certification but still cut corners. IT's really too bad. but it only takes one food bourne illness to screw thngs up and demand more regulation!!!

Not everyone is honest out there and don't know what they are doing might be wrong. Have read it in a book (like the trash can sap storage) most of us have read rick mann's backyard sugarin' its a good starter book but its in there.

I am for the change! I don't think it really changes much but streamlines things a bit but have to find a place to put all those words!!!

And again I don't Like the "Grade B" either and for me it sells the best. Its just a stonger flavor which people seem to like as do I.

In reguards to the "process grade and flavor-mersh" I have taasted some syrups out there med/dark/B that by my palet had off flavors. most of them bitter flavors but some I feel were inedible. Ones persons tastes are different from the next. So where the off flavors come into play is really tricky.

I think they really need to offer more grading classes so we have a better understanding of what is expected!!! the color is pretty straight forward. taste is a whole other ballgame!!!

Sugarmaker

12-06-2010, 11:36 AM

Looking forward to these changes as positive improvements in the marketing of maple syrup!
Regards,
Chris

Bucket Head

12-06-2010, 12:50 PM

DrTimPerkins

12-06-2010, 02:32 PM

To refresh my extremely poor short term memory, and to inform the folks who are new to sugaring, what are the new grades/lable requirements? And when do we have to start implementing them?

They are not in effect at this time. The North American Maple Syrup Council and International Maple Syrup Institute have voted to accept them and to move on to the regulatory/implementation phase, but it'll take a few years for that to happen.

General
√ Produced exclusively by the concentration of maple sap or by the solution or dilution of a maple product other than maple sap in potable water
√ Minimum soluble solids of 66% (66.5 - 67.5% for best flavour)
√ Maximum soluble solids of 68.9% (except for new processes and/or maple products which will be dealt with on an individual basis)
√ Comply with appropriate federal and state/provincial standards for contaminants (e.g. lead)
√ Comply with other appropriate federal and state/provincial regulations and policy directives (e.g. labelling, standard containers, establishment registration)
√ Proper determination of grade and class
√ Traceable to batch (daily production)

Grade A Uniform in color, taste normally associated with color class, free from objectionable flavor and odor, free from turbidity. No retail restrictions.

Color Classes (Grade A)
- Golden Color/Delicate Taste (Light transmittance not less than 75%)
- Amber Color/Rich Taste (LT 50-74.9%)
- Dark Color/Robust Taste (LT 25.1-49.9%)
- Very Dark Color/Strong Taste (25% or less LT)

Processing Grade
Not for retail sale, any light transmittance, any color class, may contain off-flavors, may be very strong tasting, must be packed in containers of 5 gal or larger, cannot be sold at retail, may be used in food processing or non-food uses.

red maples

12-06-2010, 03:40 PM

the article in the maple digest says they are shooting for implementation for the 2013 season. Although that will never happen because we're all gonna be gone in 2012 anyway. :rolleyes:

anyway I missed that part for the very dark/TL 25% or less. SO it can be as dark as night as long as it doesn't have off flavors.

Tmeeeh

12-06-2010, 04:04 PM

Is there a chart or any other comparative information that explains how the new grades compare to the old? In other words. What are the allowed Tc (light transmission) values for the current Grades A; Medium, Dark, and B compared to each grade of the proposed new system?

DrTimPerkins

12-06-2010, 04:31 PM

anyway I missed that part for the very dark/TL 25% or less. SO it can be as dark as night as long as it doesn't have off flavors.

Correct. This is a very favorable change in my opinion. Some consumers really want the very dark, strong-tasting syrup. With this change you can legally sell it to them (in retail quantities) as long as it doesn't have any objectionable off-flavors.

red maples

12-06-2010, 05:04 PM

Correct. This is a very favorable change in my opinion. Some consumers really want the very dark, strong-tasting syrup. With this change you can legally sell it to them (in retail quantities) as long as it doesn't have any objectionable off-flavors.

excellent. yes I have a few customers that ask specifically for the darkest stuff I have!!!

Haynes Forest Products

12-06-2010, 05:36 PM

Could you please expound on the Traceable to Batch Daily production) Will we have to bulk pack and label and keep track of daily production and not mix differant days productions.

Amber Gold

12-06-2010, 07:11 PM

I have a USDA Permanent Grade set, will those colors apply to the new grading system? If not, do you think I'd be able to buy just the plastic colors and not the entire set?

DrTimPerkins

12-06-2010, 07:14 PM

Could you please expound on the Traceable to Batch Daily production) Will we have to bulk pack and label and keep track of daily production and not mix differant days productions.

Not entirely certain what the specific rules will be, but am assuming that means they simply want to be able to trace syrup that is sold back to the source and to narrow it down. For very small producers, batch packing would be necessary as it isn't practical to keep each day completely separate. Basically it is just a record-keeping thing.

WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER

12-06-2010, 09:09 PM

Correct. This is a very favorable change in my opinion. Some consumers really want the very dark, strong-tasting syrup. With this change you can legally sell it to them (in retail quantities) as long as it doesn't have any objectionable off-flavors.

This is the best part of the change process. Many times you can make very great flavored syrup but it is darker than "B" on the grading scale that was based solely on color. This is a change that has been needed for a long time.

brookledge

12-06-2010, 09:17 PM

I have been involved with this issue for a long time. As a Board of director with Mass Maple we were asked to comment on the issue last year. Well at first I felt why change it and it is fine the way it is. over time I realized it was for the best since the big players, Canada and Vermont were already on board and not objecting to it. I couldn't believe Vermont was ok with giving up the term Fancy. That in a sense shows you how commited some were in getting the grades standardized.
I also was concerned about how much money producers would need to spend to comply. For many it will cost a lot of money.
New permanent grade kit
New silk screens for each size jugs(some producers have wording on the container saying the grade)
new grade labels
posters explaining the new grades. etc.
Other issues were what if Mass opposed it. how would we fair with the rest of the world. Mass has five other states that abut it and those that live near the border would have to always have to answer the questions and explain the grades so finally I felt even though it would cost alot it was for the best.
Keith

Bucket Head

12-06-2010, 10:47 PM

Just to clarify, the "Delicate Taste/ Rich Taste" etc., etc., will have to be listed/printed on the bottle or producer applied sticker in addition to the new color system?

I am not completely against this change, but I think its a little more than what was needed. I never liked the Grade B designation. I'm glad that has changed. "B" made it sound like that syrup was somehow inferior. I also like the "standardizing" among the states. However, light/medium/dark/extra dark, without the "B", would have been fine. All producers are still going to have a lot of explaining to do with their customers with this system. I can hear it now- customers huddled around the sample area, both asking and argueing, "Whats the difference between Strong and Robust"?, "This one's more Rich than that one!", "How is this Delicate"? And so and so on.

We'll see how it goes...

Steve

red maples

12-07-2010, 06:49 AM

according to the article the grade(color) and flavor would have to be on the label or on the bottle some where. they are working on the issues with the smaller and decorative bottle as there is not alot of room as it is!!!

remember at this point nothing is written in stone yet and they still have 2+ years until the 2013 unofficial deadline to get the changes in place. So with this article it will sorta give everyone a heads up. and I am sure your local Ag rep/insp. will be able to answer your questions as soon as they are educated on this.

DrTimPerkins

12-07-2010, 07:00 AM

However, light/medium/dark/extra dark, without the "B", would have been fine.

The problem with this is that consumers don't always intuitively understand that (normally) flavor corresponds to color. Therefore there is the need to put in a direct flavor descriptor. Now these descriptors weren't just pulled out of the air (or elsewhere)....they were determined through extensive (and expensive) consumer studies done in several areas. I'm sure we can all dream up descriptors until the cows come home, but the real way to do it is to ask the people who buy the product....the consumers. This is what the effort is all about...making it easier for the consumer...not making it easier for the sugarmaker. Although....I think it has some distinct benefits for the maple producers as well.

peckfarm

12-07-2010, 08:55 AM

It is a remarkable condition of the industry when 2 countries their provinces, states and research facilities responsibly regulate with such concern for both the producer and the consumer. The new grading system must be viewed not in relation to the existing one but rather as its own solution. From a fresh point of view not clinging to the old way of doing it, the improved grading system is a solid rock foundation from which every producer can now base a broad marketing system. That being said everyone can agree that there are improvements to be made.
Clarification on the batch designation is key. For example: if I blend syrup from 3.3.2011 with syrup from 3.21.2011 how would the batch designation then be applied?
It would also be a good compromise to let producers label with the new grading system and the old if they wanted to. This would aid the consumer as well and might be an effective transition tool.
Obviously there will be some sort of marketing of the new system to aid producers, how($) will this be implemented?
As mentioned in the digest, an expanded tasting/grading school would be very helpful and likely well received by the industry.

jasonl6

12-07-2010, 11:19 AM

We are new to maple syrup sales. We have always just made enough for ourselves and some for gifts for friends. We are in need of a grading system for this year as we are planning to make and sell more syrup then we ever use to. Is the new grading system able to be used yet or will i have to invest in the current system and in another 2 years invest in a new system?

I would prefere to invest in the new system now so i don't have to learn twice.

Jason

3rdgen.maple

12-07-2010, 11:27 AM

The way I understand it Peckfarm is it is not necessarily a designation of each batch coming off the evaporator but rather a designation of a batch of syrup bottled and sold. It was explained to me at VVS this is for a traceble record of that certain "batch" of syrup sold wether its blended or hot off the evaporator in case there is something wrong found and a recall of that batch can be made. So not only do we need a designated "batch" number but a record of who bought which batches. It in my opinion is a small task and responsible to do. Also someone can correct me but I do not believe there has ever been a single need for this in the past. With that said I think it is great that our industry itself can step up and show we are willing to take these steps and that government regulations are not needed as alot of time has been spent taking these measures. I personally love the new system. It is not only confusing for some consumers but I have corrected quite a few producers as well who do not lable their syrup properly themselves. A couple examples are a NY producer insist that he lables grade a light amber as fancy. Another one I know has no grading kit at all and just holds it up to the light and takes a guess at what grade it is. It is these people who only confuse the consumer as well. With that said educating these types of producers and getting them to be compliant with the new system is going to be another story and unless they get onboard and get a proper grading kit and lables it will catch up to them and make us all look bad when we read about it in the paper.

DrTimPerkins

12-07-2010, 11:31 AM

Is the new grading system able to be used yet or will i have to invest in the current system and in another 2 years invest in a new system?

No, the new system has not yet been accepted by the federal regulatory agencies or by the individual states and provinces. It'll be at least 2-3 yrs.

3rdgen.maple

12-07-2010, 11:40 AM

Just wanted to make another observation that in several post back Dr. Tim also noted that it is currently illegal to sell comercial grade syrup in a quanity of less than 5 gallons. I was told the same thing by an ag inspector a few years back. But if you guys go on ebay you will notice that there are producers selling the stuff in 2 gallon and less quanities right on the internet. Just another reason we the industry needs to get things straightened up before someone else does it for us by costing us even more money.

DrTimPerkins

12-08-2010, 07:51 AM

The general public is now used to the existing grading system (or at least most of them) and now we'll have to start over with new standards that will, potentially confuse them.

I wanted to follow up on this comment. Through doing education work at the Champlain Valley Expo, I can tell you that there definitely is considerable confusion about the different grades. It is true that there is LESS confusion among people in New England and in other rural areas where syrup is made, but in general, most people don't have a clue what the grades are or what they mean in terms of flavor. I'd be willing to bet that more people think the dark stuff is thicker rather than stronger tasting. I believe that the consumer studies done as part of this new grading system also showed that consumers don't really understand the current grading systems (and there are several) very well.

To go one step further, a sizeable proportion of the population doesn't understand the difference between table syrup and maple syrup. At the Expo we have an exhibit showing different table syrups and the amount of maple in them (you have to turn up a card under the syrup to get the answer). Many people (including some locals) come in and say, "this is what I buy", then flip it up and are surprised to find it has little or no maple syrup in it at all. The Vermont maple industry had a professional phone survey done about 10 yrs ago. One of the first questions was, "do you use pure maple syrup?" If they answered yes, they were asked to go to the fridge and get the bottle/jug out and give the name of the brand. The most common responses....Aunt Jemimah, Log Cabin, etc. Way less than half that said yes actually had maple syrup in their house.

In summary, I'd agree that if you do farm gate sales that perhaps 50% of your customers understand the grades to some degree....but as far as the general public goes, especially if you get outside the dominant maple producing areas....about 8-9 out of 10 just don't have a clue. That is the point of putting flavor descriptors on the label....we can't educate them all...but we can make it easier for them to make a better choice when they're standing at the store shelves trying to figure out what they want.

maplwrks

12-08-2010, 10:17 AM

I agree with Dr. Tim on this. After working at the Big E for a week this last fall, it was very apparent that customers wanted VT Syrup, but didn't have a clue what each grade represented in flavor.(or for the fact that there was different grades)

I personnally don't like the idea of an industry wide grading system for the simple fact that syrup from different regions of the maple world taste different. I also feel that the descriptors sound extremely tacky. There will be nothing that any of us can do about this, just make the best of it!

lew

12-08-2010, 11:19 AM

I have a problem with placing flavor descriptions in the label. What is robust to you may not be to me. It is too subjective. What do you do with syrup that is made with air injection. It goes against the grading system we have now, but the new grading system will not help either. I do not have any personal experience with producing the stuff, but have tasted samples of it. 5 different samples, all Light amber, almost the same color in each sample bottle. What a difference in flavor though. Tastes ranged from delicate to commercial. How do you include the color and flavor of a light amber syrup that tastes like commercial? How are you going to fit these long descriptive grade names on a small round label (like we have now)? There just isn't enought room on standard jugs to put another label in the flat area of the jug. And labels do not stick well on the curved, blank section of the jug unless it is small. Also, if consumers don't understand what the grades mean now, what makes anybody think they will figure out the new system? Years ago we tried out 3 different brands of jugs, all with a generic "Pure Maple Syrup" logo on the front. We placed all of the jugs side by side for sale. I couldn't wait to get rid of everything but the Sugarhill jugs. Almost every customer asked what was in the other jugs, even though they all read "Pure Maple Syrup". So, I don't think changing the grading system is going to help. I think it will just be more of a nuisance to the producer and the consumer. I've spent 20+ years educating my customers (some to no avail), now I will have to strat all over again.

I hear many people saying that this is good for the industry, I'm sorry, but I just don't see the benefit. Unscrupulous people will remain the way they are, and the honest will remain honest. New regulations WILL halp catch some unscrupulous people, but will trip many honest ones.

Am i the only one with these thoughts, or do others agree.

Sorry, just some rambling thoughts.

red maples

12-08-2010, 02:56 PM

In the article they stated they are still working out the details some of which you metioned there. I would say its way less than 50% of the people know about the grades/flavors. People ask me all the time "are you going to make grade B this year?" I just tell them its all about what the trees give me. they think I make each grade differently. Dark is the most popular because it whats in the stores and most availiable to the general public. And I am sure it usually blended with all grades to get a specific color flavor.

as for the flavors it is different not only from CAN to USA but state to state, county to county, and producer to producer and so forth and so on. I would put money on it if you went to 5 different sugarhouses any state or prov. each sample would taste different!!! similiar, but still different!!!

peckfarm

12-08-2010, 03:25 PM

I'm sorry, but I just don't see the benefit.
Rehabilitating or eliminating unscrupulous and even dangerously unhealthy producers might be a nice effect of the new grading system however it does not seem to be the impetus behind the push. One might draw a comparison to dairy production. %2 milk is %2 milk, left to their own devices some farmers might call it "kinda watery" or "fancy milk." The %grading standard allows for every milk bottler to have a client in any state, the competition then lies in marketing, production technique and distribution. With syrup the grading will have a standard and furthermore the industry would then have the opportunity to clear up confusion regarding non-maple syrup products. The success of each producer then lies in his marketing ability and the adoption of successful/efficient production techniques. Farm gate sales won't change at all. Bob likes med. amber/ AA medium/ Moderate Golden blah-blah-blah the name doesn't matter. What does matter is the consistency of grading that will allow for an expansion of the market and the clarification of impostors like Log Cabin. As I posted earlier, if one sells to clients off the truck or over the fence, keep the old grading or even label it "Golden Wonderful Fancyness" if you want to, no one is holding a cattle prod on our behinds.

Bucket Head

12-08-2010, 04:50 PM

Wait a minute! You can't use that. Golden Wonderful Fancyness is what I call mine!! Just kidding, but I do like it- it's clever.

Seriously, I'm not a fan of the "taste" lables, at least not yet. I'm alright with the other changes, so I'll have to wait and see how the taste part of it turns out. If the customer studies Dr. Tim speaks of show customers want those indicators, so be it. There will still be confusion with some folks, but there's confusion now, and were dealing with it however we have to with each customer. I don't mind explaining the colors of syrup to customers and I won't mind trying to explain the taste labeling if they ask. Lets see how the new grading system works- maybe we'll be pleasantly surprised.

Taking a step back and looking at the whole maple picture, there are other things in the syrup world that we should be debating and worrying about more than lables. Things like road salt and the long horned beetle that are killing our trees, or the new Food Safety Bill, that might put an end on us labeling anything in the future.

Steve

BryanEx

12-08-2010, 05:14 PM

I don't have a problem with descriptions providing they do not also specify a use like "for cooking". Yes, flavours will vary but it will act as a starting point to developing a brand loyalty with your customers. I prefer a Pilsner beer but pilsner beers can still vary in taste so I buy a brand I know I like. If that brand is not available I will still start with Pilsner and see how it compares.

lew

12-09-2010, 07:05 AM

I too agree that having the same COLOR grades throughout the maple world would be beneficial. BUt having FLAVOR grades is opening up a can of worms. Every year we all make wonderfully flavored syrup. But as many of you know, different areas produce syrup that has a different flavor. I'm not talking objectionable flavors, just different. In years past I have seen syrup competitions swayed because the judge was from a particular area of the state and had a preference for that areas syrup. Nothing wrong with that, but how do you label it correctly, "Weak For Lewis County but Robust for Chenango County". And when "Big Brother" comes to you and says that your syrup is not labeled correctly for flavor, how are they going to enforce it, or better yet, you fight it. "It tastes Robust to me". I think flavor goes back to the saying "Beauty (Flavor) is in the eyes of the beholder".

BryanEx

12-10-2010, 06:23 PM

And when "Big Brother" comes to you and says that your syrup is not labeled correctly for flavor, how are they going to enforce it, or better yet, you fight it.
Unless I misunderstand things, the grading is not based on flavour, it's based on light transmittal. The taste description is just an add-on generality for each grade as a starting point for the consumer. There is no arguing that the "maple" flavour increases as a syrup gets darker and that's all the flavour descriptions are meant to indicate (as far as I understand).

If you have ever sold at a farmers market and had every grade on display from extra light to dark and had a customer ask "What's the difference?", I'm willing to bet most would talk about how the maple flavour gets stronger as the syrup gets darker. Same idea with the flavour labels only they are trying to do it in print without being there in person to guide the consumer on their purchase.

lew

12-11-2010, 08:29 PM

Bryanex,

I hope that it is only based on light transmittal. But how do you label syrup that is light (NY grades) in color but has a Dark flavor, or vice versa. Now you can either blend it to hide it's inconsistencies, or if you don't pack enough syrup, you tell your customer that it is light in color and has a strong flavor. But when you add the flavor description to the label, it seems to me that you are telling your customer that your syrup is mislabeled. I do believe that making COLOR grades consistent throughout the maple world is beneficial. But adding the flavor description to the color grade won't help the consumer much at all. I think it was Dr. Perkins who mentioned that when a consumer study was done, they asked them if they had Pure maple syrup in their refirigerator, many said yes and when asked what brand it was, many said Aunt Jemimah. If they don't know real syrup from Aunt Jemimah, how are they going to tell the difference between delicate and robust flavor without actually tasting it. That can only be done by us, the producers, educating our customers. I personaly don't think a simple label is going to do it. I also don't understand why you would want to put a legally binding grade label on something that cannot be enforced. To me that is meaningless. I don't mean to sound as argumentative, I' m just not in favor of flavor labels.

mike z

12-14-2010, 10:52 PM

By putting your syrup in a Pure Wisconsin Maple Syrup container, aren't people going to assume it tastes better anyway? :lol:

DrTimPerkins

12-15-2010, 06:41 AM

....I hope that it is only based on light transmittal. But how do you label syrup that is light (NY grades) in color but has a Dark flavor, or vice versa....

You default to the lowest grade. If it is light in color, but tastes dark, it is a dark. If it is dark in color, but taste light, it is a dark.

That is the way it works in Vermont (and some other places) right now.

Haynes Forest Products

12-15-2010, 09:09 AM

I can now go stick it to the guy up in Egg Harbor Wisc That has all his signs say IF ITS LIGHT ITS RIGHT:lol:

I can see it now Two producers sitting around tasting their syrup arguing back and fourth TASTES LIGHT...................TASTES RIGHT..................TASTES DARK................WHAT........YES IT TASTES DARK...................DID YOU SPIT AFTER YOU TRIED IT....................NO.................DID YOU CLENSE YOUR PALETTE WITH CRACKERS........BITE ME................I USED BEER.................GET OUT AND DONT COME BACK.........................TAKE THAT BEAR BAIT AND SHOVE IT.................SCREW YOU ILL WHOLESALE IT...................YEA GOOD LUCK YOU DONT HAVE A LICENSE........I DONT CARE KEN WILL BUT IT..................:o

lew

12-15-2010, 11:26 AM

Dr. Perkins,

I guess that is part of my point. If the grade labels read "Light- delicate Flavor" and "Dark-RObust Flavor", Then my Light colored syrup with Dark flavor cannot be correctly labeled with the new system. If I label it "Light-Delicate Flavor" Then the color is right but the flavor is wrong. If I label it "DArk-Robust Flavor", then the flavor is right but the color is wrong.

lew

12-15-2010, 11:32 AM

Also, how are we going to "default to the lower grade"? Which grade will we follow, the color grade or the flavor grade? Which flavor is lower? Delicate or Robust? 20 years ago Dark syrup was harder to sell and most people (around here anyway) wanted light. Now our biggest seller is Grade B. As far as flavor goes, I would have to say that "Delicate" flavor is the lower grade because it is not as much in demand to a retail customer. Not so 20 years ago.

DrTimPerkins

12-15-2010, 12:49 PM

If the grade labels read "Light- delicate Flavor" and "Dark-RObust Flavor", Then my Light colored syrup with Dark flavor cannot be correctly labeled with the new system. If I label it "Light-Delicate Flavor" Then the color is right but the flavor is wrong. If I label it "DArk-Robust Flavor", then the flavor is right but the color is wrong.

Hi Folks,

Don't shoot the messanger here. I'm just relaying the information. I don't make the rules -- just telling you what I know. However.....there are always going to be unusual circumstances. IN GENERAL though, flavor follows the grade. Isn't that what we're telling people now? So to default to the lower grade is not wrong as a descriptor of the flavor, because the regulations allow (or require) this. The packers can blend to ensure that the color and flavor are correct. It isn't very typical that you have a really dark syrup that tastes light, although you might have a light syrup that has a stronger flavor (air injection perhaps). So in most cases, if you default to the lower grade you'd be accurately describing the FLAVOR of the syrup. That is what we're truly selling....the flavor, not the color. Consumers don't really care that it is light-amber for B because they want it to be that COLOR...what they are after is the FLAVOR. To take it to the extreme, you might have the lightest syrup you ever made, but with a strong or off-flavor. Are you going to sell that as light-amber or fancy syrup or is a packer going to pay you for that high grade? No...because it has other attributes (strong or off-flavor) that modify the grade. The syrup will be down-graded, perhaps all the way to Commercial syrup. Exact same principle.

Haynes Forest Products

12-15-2010, 05:04 PM

DR You made a very interesting point about the PACKERS being able to blend both tastes and colors to get a consistant product. Like wine and beer makers they also do that. But what about small guys that are happy with their product both in color and flavor and all spectrums inbetween. I think they should be able to sell under a hobby/craft designation. I constantly read in producers web sites about THEIR special flavors what will happen to them?

DrTimPerkins

12-15-2010, 06:21 PM

I constantly read in producers web sites about THEIR special flavors what will happen to them?

From my understanding, as long as the class color-flavor descriptors are included, there is nothing that precludes anyone from putting additional information on the label to market their syrup as they see fit.

BryanEx

12-15-2010, 06:40 PM

I may be missing something here but I can't say as I understand why there is so much turmoil over the flavour descriptions added to each grade. Personally I much prefer it over uses like "for cooking" but that's just me I guess. Put a bit of syrup in a sample bottle, compare colours, add the appropriate grade sticker and you are done... providing your syrup does not taste like benzene or sulfur.

southfork

12-15-2010, 06:56 PM

Thank you Dr. Perkins for the input. I am looking forward to the new system.

Homestead Maple

12-16-2010, 09:45 AM

On the card that IMSI is distributing to maple makers, it has the "Definition of Pure Maple Syrup" and the first paragraph reads;
Produced exclusively by the concentration of maple sap or by the solution or dilution of a maple product other than maple sap in potable water.
I wonder what it means 'by the solution or dilution of a maple product other than maple sap in potable water'?
Taking maple sugar and dissolving it with tap water to bring it back to maple syrup?
Also, the density that would be allowed reads;
Minimum soluble solids of 66% (66.5 - 67.5% for best flavour).
This would be a lighter density than some states allow now. I suppose maple makers would benefit from higher syrup yields, from their sap.

DrTimPerkins

12-16-2010, 09:58 AM

Taking maple sugar and dissolving it with tap water to bring it back to maple syrup?
Also, the density that would be allowed reads;
Minimum soluble solids of 66% (66.5 - 67.5% for best flavour).
This would be a lighter density than some states allow now. I suppose maple makers would benefit from higher syrup yields, from their sap.

Yes, that is exactly it. Basically it allows people to dilute back to the syrup from some other pure maple product (candy or sugar) or to dilute back if the syrup is too heavy. Let's say you make a batch that is too dense. Without this statement, it is too dense, and therefore can't be sold as syrup. This definition specifically allows you to add water to get back to the proper density.

The range of density covers all the states/provinces, but does not restrict states/provinces from placing further limitations on syrup within their boundaries as long as they fit within this range.

BryanEx

05-22-2011, 07:15 AM

Another article about the new grading standards has just been published in Farming Magazine. You can read the online version here;

http://www.farmingmagazine.com/article-6948.aspx

The one question I still have with the new standards coming is how best to set up and manage a batch code system as a smaller producer. How do I best mark my containers with a batch lot number so it's affordable yet looks professional and what exactly needs to be included in the record keeping?

- Bryan

3rdgen.maple

05-22-2011, 09:02 AM

Bryan here how it was explained to me and I was excited cause that was exally how I do it now.

Come up with a batch number system,,,,, easiest way is the date followed by a numerical number for example. First bottling of the day on march 12 2012 0312121. Second bottling of the day on march 12 2012 0312122.
Take that number and write it in a log book with how many containers in that batch. I was also told it is a good idea to write down the customers name and phone number associated with the container at time of sale so if there is a problem the process of tracking down where each individual container went is simple.

I use a P-touch lable that I make of a lable maker that laminates the lable as well with my name, address and grade of syrup along with a line that has B# on it and thats where I write it in with a fine tip sharpy.

Buckshot

05-22-2011, 11:48 AM

The nutrition labels that I purchased from Camp Can Aqua had a nice little box on the bottom of them that was labelled Batch Code. I just used a pen to write in my code.
My code was year/month/date/grade. Grade being XL for extra light, L for light, M for medium and A for amber. (Cdn grades) Eg 110303M.

I bottled in glass, so the grade letter added to the batch code would speed up a search of "bad" product. ie Once I know the product in question has a batch code ending in A - then I'm only searching through my amber stuff.
Also, I don't always finish and bottle my product on the same day that I drew it off. When finishing day comes around, I may have 2 different grades of syrup waiting in separate pails to be bottled. Thus giving me product
110303L and 110303M.

Happy to say that this was my first year selling syrup. About 30L was purchased by friends and co-workers. No problems...just happy customers.

U.S.M.C.Cpl

05-22-2011, 01:01 PM

So this would be a bad time to invest in a permanent grading kit??? Are they still going to have the kits you buy every year to grade??? Who is going to check for off flavor??? Sorry just a bunch of questions...

BryanEx

05-22-2011, 04:46 PM

Do not purchase a permanent grading set right now, the 2 year grading sets will simply be adjusted to the new standards, and I'm not sure about off flavours.

BryanEx

05-22-2011, 04:48 PM

I use a P-touch lable that I make of a lable maker that laminates the lable as well with my name, address and grade of syrup along with a line that has B# on it...
P-Touch... good idea! Does it adhere well to both plastic and glass?

brookledge

05-22-2011, 06:33 PM

The tasteing will be left up to the producer. So if you make light syrup at the beginning of the season and it has an off flavor from the snot in your tubing you need to label it as commercial. the hardest thing in my mind is when you make some grade A dark amber and it is a little strong so it should be graded B grade. light transmission is cut and dry either it is lighter than the test bottle or it is graded the next lower grade. But when it comes to taste then it becomes a determination based on your taste.
I guess the way i'm going to handle it is say to myself would I be happy if I were to have paid top dollar for the syrup I just bought. And remember that the customer will tell others if they are not happy. I have been making syrup for over 30 yrs and have also done taste testing of off flavors so I feel I'll be ok with the new grading standards.
Keith

3rdgen.maple

05-22-2011, 10:43 PM

P-Touch... good idea! Does it adhere well to both plastic and glass?

It sure does. I love the thing. Its a model #PT2430pc. Roll of lables can get pricy if you get fancy colors invovled but its so darn simple to use and prints the lable, lainates it and cuts each one individually. There are also different strength adhesive lables you can get for it. I got the strongest adhesive lable they had the first year and the past 2 years got the regular adhesive ones and they work just fine. Never had one come off or any moisture damage. In fact I usually clean the jugs and bottles after I put the lables on. One thing I did notice is that if you write on the lable with the sharpy while the jug is still hot it transfers alot better. Next year I will probably print the lables on demand and just have it print out the batch number as I go instead of the marker. In the past I just printed out a bunch of each grade and had them ready to go then wrote in the batch number.

Acer

05-23-2011, 03:47 AM

Where can I get a flavor grade kit, and how do I use it?

3rdgen.maple

05-23-2011, 09:05 AM

Where can I get a flavor grade kit, and how do I use it?

you already own one. Its between your nose and chin. You just put some syrup in it and then decide what it taste like.

red maples

05-23-2011, 10:01 AM

I heard its called many things most of which not suitable for this forum. but usually called a mouth in most parts of the country. :lol:

What I did was go around and buy the little 3.4 ouncers if they have them sometime you have to get a pint and try different grades I most got dark grade B so I could see where some of the producers have their cut off points on off flavors and I have to say it was all over the board!!! Some had great flavor what I would say was spot on.(but what do I know) and some that had such an off flavor bitter almost burnt flavor to the Gr B I feel sorry that producers customers that he is tricking into buying his products. that was a few years ago. but from my experience(chef) is you need to train your pallet to find the off flavors. and where they are coming from. burnt niter? spoiled sap? or what they call metabolism but thats on another thread somewhere and I haven't witnessed that yet. Check with the NH Agriculture Dept or you can check with the NHmaple producers assoc they have tasting/grading classes you can attend. and If they don't have them I am sure they can point you in the right direction.

As far as flavors in NH as long as it doesn't have off flavors and tastes like real pure maple syrup then its basically graded by color. And as far as grade B goes in NH there is no color limit to it as long as there are no off flavors which is good because the VT cap is a brown color and my syrup gets a deep red color the darker it gets so sometimes it even hard to tell from dark to B. there that was a bit longer than I expected it be!!!