starting large opperation,need info

[LARRY,at SWEETSTUFF]

I have been playing around long enough, It's time to get serious. Being new to this site I am realy hopefull that others with this same sweet love of making MAPLE SYRUP can help me become a profitable company.
I have a vague idea on the mainline thing however after reading some of your coments Ido not understand wet and dry lines what is the difference
please be patient as I have lots of questions. thanks a lot.

[Potters3]

Wet lines carry the sap back to a tank
the dry line allows vaccum to get up lines, normaly run a dry line from vaccum source up to a booster that is 1000' up the lines. That way the vaccum isn't fighting to get thru and you have even vaccum from the start to the end of your lines

[red maples]

one thing I recommend if you don't already have it is getting the "north american maple producers manual" It is my bible!!! I use it for everthing.

In the begining I was confused about wet/dry my self but its basically 2 lines run parallel to each other one to carry sap the other to add move vac(air) in the line, increasing or should I say help maintain the vacuum the levels farther out on the line. at times the dry line will carry sap usually when the wet line is frozen in the morning or if the wet line fills durring a heavy run(which is what we all hope for. The dry line ties in with the wet line with vertical tubes and Tees at various points in the line.

Hope this helps.

[Acer]

welcome larry,

please define large.

[Thad Blaisdell]

Larry, Think of your pipeline system as an intricate Road system. Your wet dry line is your interstate. Your mainlines are your highways. Your laterals are your back roads. And any lateral over 4 taps is what we call your class 4 road, which in our area means maybe passable----maybe not.

Now the Wet/Dry line. These two lines are one on top top the other... say 8-12 inches apart. The Dry line is generally one size bigger than the wet line. These are connected to the mainlines using manifolds. These connect Both the wet line and dry line to the main line. What happens at the manifolds is that the air is sent up to the dry line and sap to the bottom line... Each tree produces air and sap, 2 parts air (or so) to 1 part sap. Air will travel faster than sap. This allows for the sap to fill the lower pipe and move at a much faster rate of speed when the air is removed and sucked into the dry line.

How many taps are you looking to put in?

[red maples]

I like the road system aproach very good thad.

[DrTimPerkins]

...Now the Wet/Dry line. These two lines are one on top top the other... say 8-12 inches apart. The Dry line is generally one size bigger than the wet line. These are connected to the mainlines using manifolds. These connect Both the wet line and dry line to the main line. What happens at the manifolds is that the air is sent up to the dry line and sap to the bottom line... Each tree produces air and sap, 2 parts air (or so) to 1 part sap. Air will travel faster than sap. This allows for the sap to fill the lower pipe and move at a much faster rate of speed when the air is removed and sucked into the dry line.

I really like the road analogy. The only thing I think I'd add is that a new pipeline system is like a brand-new road, all smooth and nice. An older system is like an older road that needs maintenance....kind of rough and some trouble spots here and there.

Dual-line mainlines are a solution to the problem of transferring air out of the system as rapidly as possible, while allow sap to move freely. They've done a very good job of achieving better vacuum transfer further out into the woods.

Since a picture often helps...see the photo attached at the bottom of this post. The dry line is on top, wet on bottom (of the two parallel pipes coming towards the right--uphill). They are connected by a PVC manifold (there are other types of manifold systems, PVC manifolds are prone to breakage by freezing or if the mainline is hit by a tree or falling limb). A single-line mainline comes out of the manifold (towards the left in the photo). Laterals are attached at intervals to this mainline (and generally not directly into the wet/dry line system). Sap runs down the laterals into the single mainline, then down to the manifold. Sap runs down in the manifold into the wet line. Air (from tree gases and leaks) runs down the dry line. This system is designed to allow a different pathway for air and sap to achieve better movement of both in the mainline system. Generally you end up with somewhat better vacuum transfer to the woods (really air transfer to the pump). The other advantage of this system is that sap can flow down the "dry" pipe, especially when the system is starting to thaw and you have frozen areas in the "wet" pipe. Hope that helps.


Each tree produces air and sap, 2 parts air (or so) to 1 part sap. Air will travel faster than sap. This allows for the sap to fill the lower pipe and move at a much faster rate of speed when the air is removed and sucked into the dry line.

Mostly correct, but probably a fair bit high on the air production. Some gas does come from the trees, especially when it is warm. Probably much of the air moving in the system comes from leaks. But you are right that air wants to move faster than sap in the pipeline. This is the cause of some problems in the lateral and drop (5/16") lines, which were developed a long time ago for gravity-based sap collection systems. In that case, you wanted to have long, small-diameter laterals with a lot of taps on it to create natural vacuum. That isn't what we're trying to do now with vacuum systems, but is simply a hold-over from the old-days. To go back to the road analogy, lateral lines are kind of like trying to put both fast cars (air) and a bunch of tractors pulling wagons (sap) on the same road. It just doesn't work really well. Neither the people in the cars nor the tractors/wagons are going to be real happy about things. If you have a tight system, everything moves along slow, but fairly steadily (but you lose vacuum pressure at the end of the road because the air can't move fast enough). If you have a leaky system, you drop a bunch more of those fast cars (air) on the road, and some of them try to go really fast, but it means there is less capacity to move the wagons (sap) down the road....even though if you stood by the side of the road it would look like traffic was moving along well. In reality, with a leaky system you're not moving wagons very well at all. And...you also lose vacuum pressure at the end of the lateral line. You basically can't win either way you do it (although fewer leaks in that case is better than lots of leaks).

What this all means is that in terms of the lateral/drop line system, we either need either bigger roads (larger laterals) or separate roads (dual lateral lines, one for sap and one for air). We've done some testing for a couple of years on both of these approaches (and have submitted U.S. and Canadian patent applications for each). Both work quite well, producing better vacuum at the end of the lateral lines and about 20% more sap. This coming spring we'll be doing a large-scale field testing of the larger lateral/drop line system, testing 1/2" lateral lines compared to 5/16" for sap yield and vacuum transfer. Lastly, we want to be sure it is economically viable.

[LARRY,at SWEETSTUFF]

DR TIM PERKINS
Thankyou for this very valuable info, Sounds to me like you are the man I need to ask alot of questions. Do you have an address that I might use to ask for possibly some brochures and helpfull info regarding a large scale opperation? Trying very hard to go big and someday make a living.
thanks LARRY,at SWEETSTUFF

[DrTimPerkins]

DR TIM PERKINS
Thankyou for this very valuable info, Sounds to me like you are the man I need to ask alot of questions. Do you have an address that I might use to ask for possibly some brochures and helpfull info regarding a large scale opperation? Trying very hard to go big and someday make a living.
thanks LARRY,at SWEETSTUFF

Hi Larry,

Best thing, as I think others might have suggested already, is to get a copy of the North American Maple Producers Manual. There is another book that might also be helpful, Design, Installation and Maintenance of Plastic Tubing Systems for Sap Collection in Sugar Bushes: An instruction manual. D. Chapeskie and L.J. Staats, 2006, although it covers pretty much the same info as in the NAMPM, and is actually a bit more outdated.

If you have specific questions, either PM me, or better still, email me at Timothy.Perkins@uvm.edu

[JohnM]

Several friendly and helpful people in the association.

We had Tim Wilmot from Proctor Maple Research Center at our annual meeting in December. He presented on many topics including mainline tubing and we toured an member's sugar camp to see his vacuum system layout.

http://www.indianamaplesyrup.org

[shane hickey]

Larry, I started three years ago tapping trees I had 175 taps . I wanted to do this for a living and as a farmers son we were always looking for money from grants, I found thousands of dollars. I read the contracts carefully before I sign them to make sure that I could meet there standards, now after three years I have more then a 10 thousand I grew very fast in a short period of time. Maple syrup and farming is my income and I'm 27. I would start out at you afs office, or farm servive agency, there are loans a young producer can get with very little interest. then it wont be long you'll be making 100k easly in a year and only have to work a month and a half, In michigan I have insurance on my syrup yields the same insurance that I have on my crops. I do have to pay a premium but I had always been money ahead.
shane

[jason grossman]

larry, i design and install tubing systems for a living and i have done and seen a lot of things from 150,000+ tap operations to 200 tap operations. i really enjoy helping new operators, so if you have questions i would be happy to help you out. you can p.m. me here or at gbmp@hotmail.com.