auto drawoff ??

[twobears1224]

i have to ask a dumb ?? here..on a auto drawoff is the Solenoid Valves 110 volt or 12 volt??

delbert

[NH Maplemaker]

twobears, They are 110 volts. Jim L.

[Haynes Forest Products]

They can be both I have been in shacks with the whole thing wired to a 12 volt battery. But as far as you have a choice the selonoid if the controller doesnt have a 12 or 24 volt option you can use a simple relay to use a 12 or 24

[twobears1224]

thanks guys...and heres the pid i bought yesterday..
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110613032488&ssPageName=ADME:L:OU:US:1123

delbert

[Haynes Forest Products]

Now do you have a PHD in PID because I got one and after about 3 hrs with teck support I Took a hammer to it:mad: But Seriously I will try again with another one. I had a problem with the probe. The problem is finding the right one that is long enough and mates with the temp controller. Let me know how it works:)

[twobears1224]

lol@haynes....thanks for the encouagement on this project :lol:

delbert

[western mainer]

Look here
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=106
Brian

[Haynes Forest Products]

Guys it was me. I have no doubt that it will work if you get the probe mated up with the temp sensor. I would also get one that has a smaller range like 100 to 400 degrees. The one that came with mine was for a boiler and it was 200 to 2000 and I dont think it was sensitive for Maple. I got mine from Coldfusion. My ADHD-ADD-HDTV got the best of me and all out rage towards high teck got the best of me and after I thru it in the sink full of water and tripped the GFCI I had it with the PID:mad:

[Grade "A"]

With this sensor most controllers will read to the 10th of a deg. http://cgi.ebay.com/RTD-PT100-Temperature-Sensors-Lead-Wire-/250734979232?pt=AU_B_I_Electrical_Test_Equipment&hash=item3a60f828a0 , When you set up you controller under the temp sensor selection pick pt10.0 instead of pt100 and it will show you the temp to the 10th of a deg.

[Haynes Forest Products]

For my set of pans and the port that it goes in my probe needs to be about 16" long. You want the probe to be within 1/4" of the bottom. Plus you dont want alot of prob sitting outside the pan so you dont wack into it when you walk by.

[twobears1224]

ok,i got my pid in the mail yesterday and now i,am looking at valves.i,am thinking this is the one i want..
http://cgi.ebay.com/3-4-Electric-Solenoid-Valve-110-V-AC-VITON-SEAL-B21V-/290508150391?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43a3a29677

it says it,s good for 266 degrees..any opinions?

delbert

[twofer]

I bought a stainless valve from the same seller. The one thing I am trying to verify is if the Viton seal is food safe.

Linky (http://cgi.ebay.com/1-2-Solenoid-Valve-120-Volt-AC-VITON-STAINLESS-S21V-/300460764156?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45f4db6bfc)

[DrTimPerkins]

I bought a stainless valve from the same seller. The one thing I am trying to verify is if the Viton seal is food safe.

Viton can be food-grade (Viton GF-600S and Viton Extreme), but it depends on the formulation used. There are lots of different formulations. Tech info can be found at http://www.dupontelastomers.com/Products/Viton/viton.asp Basic info is below.

Viton® (FKM)
Viton® (FKM) is a brand name for the Fluoroelastomer manufactured by DuPont. It is well know for its excellent heat resistance, making service temperatures nearing 150 degrees Celsius (302 deg Fahrenheit) possible.

FKM seals are most commonly used with the following media: Hot Water, Acid, Alkali, Oils, Hydrocarbon, Salts Solutions,

FKM has a good resistance to: Hydrocarbons, Many Aggressive Chemicals, Diluted Acids, Weak Alkalis, Mineral Oils, Aliphatic and Aromatic Hydrocarbons,
Chlorinated Hydrocarbons, Sunlight, Ozone

Viton® has a poor resistance to: Ketones, Acetone

[Amber Gold]

I've gotten valves before from the same seller. Mine was a brass valve for my solar hot water system...high quality stuff and better than what you'll find at McMaster Carr.

Where can I find a 9" temperature probe? The 4" probes are too short.

[gmcooper]

Try Grainger for 9" temp probes.

[Haynes Forest Products]

I got a 1" valve from the same Company but went with the stainless body. I also spoke with the owner of the company and he installed a differant spring for Gravity. He said that some springs are differant for pressure applications.

When you order the temp probe make sure you check to see if its a 2 or 3 wire. My FUJI takes a 3 wire and the ones on Ebay the less expensive ones take a 2 wire.

[twobears1224]

i ordered a brass valve.i thought about stainless but brass is much cheaper and all the inside parts are stainless.
my pid can use a two or three wire probe.i,am still undesided on which probe to buy so,i haven,t ordered one yet.

delbert

[twobears1224]

i got my valve today in the mail..looks good and got here fast.now,i need to put the wire on it.

delbert

[Lwood]

Another good source for temperature sensors is Omega.
www.omega.com

I would recomend that what ever you do go with an RTD (PT100) type of sensor. The rtd has a much greater accuracy and repeatability than a k-type thermocouple (k-type is what most of these guys list for the sensors). A rtd is more money but well worth it.

[twobears1224]

lwood;thanks for the info.i,ve been doing some research and i was thinking what you said...use a rtd...there better for what we,re trying to do.

delbert

[Amber Gold]

gmcooper, good thinking, I didn't think of Grainger.

Would something like this work? The price is good.

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/DWYER-Temperature-Sensor-6CTY6?Pid=search

Would this one (or another) work better from Omega?

http://www.omega.com/ppt/pptsc.asp?ref=PRTF-11

[Haynes Forest Products]

Make sure that the probe is long enough. My probe I got with the Marcland is about 16" long and with the slight angle of the port on my probe ends up about 6" out into the syrup pan. The K type probe is more for boiler type application and will cause trouble. You dont want to have the probe so short that you need the liquid level so high. You want it about a 1/4" of the pan.

[twobears1224]

i,ve done some research on probes and from what i,ve read a RTD (PT100) type of sensor is what we should be using.now to find the right one.i,ve spent alot of time looking and i can,t really find what we need lengthwise.
right now i,am using a 2x3 syrup pan on the front of my arch.i found a RTD (PT100) type of sensor with a quick disconnect on it and i bought that.i also bought a weldament to run it thur the side of my pan...like the dial therometers.i have it ordered and i,am waiting on it now.

delbert

[Grade "A"]

I made a bracket for my sensor that clips to the pan. I can take the sensor out for cleaning and there is no extra holes in the pan.

[twobears1224]

GRADE A:i thought about doing that but i didn,t know how waterproof the wire end is on these probes.
heres the one i bought it,s short but i think it,ll be ok with the pan i have now.if you look at that page they have a link to the weldaments i bought.
i need to get my pans welded so i,ll just have those done too.

delbert

http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=15&products_id=107&zenid=d4191eeefb8b1a7e994ec80cfa4811a8

[Grade "A"]

GRADE A:i thought about doing that but i didn,t know how waterproof the wire end is on these probes.
heres the one i bought it,s short but i think it,ll be ok with the pan i have now.if you look at that page they have a link to the weldaments i bought.
i need to get my pans welded so i,ll just have those done too.

delbert

http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=15&products_id=107&zenid=d4191eeefb8b1a7e994ec80cfa4811a8

The sensor I have has the three wire wraped up in one coating so it is waterproof, I have used it for 3 years and still works great. Syrup normal will not boil up to the wires on mine.

[kiegscustoms]

This is a question for all you guys using a bracket to suspend your rtd above the pan. When I talked to the tech at auber he said you need about 2" of submersion for the probe to read correctly. Do you guys run your pans 2" deep and if not have you ever had a problem with your probe not reading correctly? Also the longest probe Auber sells is 4". Do you have a bracket that goes into your syrup pan and suspends that 4" probe 1/4 to 1/2" off the bottom? I run my pans fairly shallow so I was wondering if sending the probe in from the side would work better. I am getting new pans made and now would be the time to order another thermometer hole in them, but I would just as soon use a bracket not have any more holes in the pans.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Kiegs Why not have the holes custom for the right application. My temp probe is 14" long and is 1/4" diameter. It comes in at a slight angle so the tip is submerged i small amounts of syrup.. I can remove the probe when things are boiling so it wont leak.

[kiegscustoms]

I suppose now would be the time to do it, seeing has how the pans are still being made. Where did you find a 14" probe? I have the Auber PID But the longest probe they sell is 4". I will have to look at the spec sheet on the new pans because they are cross flow and I have 3 syrup pans coming. How deep do you run your pans usually?

[Haynes Forest Products]

Kieg I will get an answer for you I shot some pics to a supplier and will get the spec's It does fit nice in the port and it can adjust to the differant levels. Make sure that the port you put is is 1/4" NPT and that its high enough and at an angle to be above the syrup level and allow the probe to slide in and down. Its not at a 45 degree you will need to work it out. I will get the probe type and you can mock it up with a stick ojn the side of the pan to get the angle and height.

[kiegscustoms]

Cool- unfortunately the pans are in canada so I cant run up there to harass them:( I would like to get them to put them in so they are blended and shiny when I get the pans. I guess worst case I can tig them in myself when I get them. About how high is the probe port on your pans? Maybe I can go with that measurement and make it work. Thanks Haynes

[Haynes Forest Products]

Check out mt Photo Bucket it will tell you everything you need.compare the dial ther for size referance

[twobears1224]

if i have a day or two i can setup one of my dads crossflow pans and use my angle gauge to see what angle the thermometer sets at.?? his port is up high and the stem on the thermometer angles down into the pan.

delbert

[Grade "A"]

This is a question for all you guys using a bracket to suspend your rtd above the pan. When I talked to the tech at auber he said you need about 2" of submersion for the probe to read correctly. Do you guys run your pans 2" deep and if not have you ever had a problem with your probe not reading correctly? Also the longest probe Auber sells is 4". Do you have a bracket that goes into your syrup pan and suspends that 4" probe 1/4 to 1/2" off the bottom? I run my pans fairly shallow so I was wondering if sending the probe in from the side would work better. I am getting new pans made and now would be the time to order another thermometer hole in them, but I would just as soon use a bracket not have any more holes in the pans.

My bracket hooks over the top of the divider in the pan. I run about 1" to 1 1/4" deep, with the probe 1/4" off the bottom of the pan, so the probe is only 3/4" to 1" in the syrup. I have never had problem with probe giving bad readings. I do find that it takes about an hour for everything (pan, arch, ext.) to come up to temp, so I don't set the auto draw-off until then. Once it is set I find that my 2x6 will have small draw-offs about every 45 to 60 seconds.

[Haynes Forest Products]

The temp probe that I have is a 14" X 1/2 SS part number RBJBOTA140BA050 It is a 3 wire My controller is a unit that requires a tree wire. The cost is $50.40. The company number is 1-800-8844967

[twobears1224]

i got my temp probe.how do the factory built units route the wire thur the enclosure?? and how did you guys with home built units deal with it?? the wires look mighty small and i want them to last.they make a thur wall quick disconnect plug for two wire probes but i can,t find a three wire one.

delbert

[twobears1224]

well,i have everything mounted in the enclosure and wired now on to the pid programing i,ve been reading that stuff and well,i have a headace.. :confused: :lol: somebody thats good at programming needs to make a video. :D

delbert

[Haynes Forest Products]

TwoBears They are all differant and very confusing. The one on my unit can be ordered preset. I would suggest that you not use tha teck sheet that came with it and go to the internet for the easy read manuel. On my Marcland When I called and asked if there were any other instructions he said forget about reading the manf sheet. On my unit you dont have wires going thru the encloser. There is a screw bar with room for hooking up the probe. If you ever say a low voltage transformer for lighting its just like that. Because its for the prob there is no danger of elec shock. It mounts to the outside of the case/encloser and has tabs for soldering on the inside. You can get them from a Hobby Electronic stores like Radio Shack.

[twobears1224]

HAYNES:I was at radio shack on friday i saw what your talking about.i,ll have to get one.
the part that get's me is the pid spec sheet doesn,t even talk about the simplest thing we could use it for..hooking a same voltage valve to it.

delbert

[Haynes Forest Products]

I got into a pissing match with the a company that sells Pids on Ebay. It came down to me being to stupid to understand what a Pid is and how dare "I" for even trying to use such a fine instrument without the "Knowledge" That comes with being A Pid expert. He was also affended that I would expect HIM to do simple programming for someone that didnt have the common sense to look up the manual on "HIS" site for teck support. I was told that JUST because I spent $39.00 for the Pid that doesnt entitle me to his Knowledge for free and that his time is worth $85.00 per hr and it wont be spent helping me. He also informed me that any normal person would know that there isnt a symbol for the letter K (as in a K type sensor) and that it only makes sense that you would use the lower case h because it looks like K.

At about that time my HDHT ADD HTDT and HDTV kicked in and I tossed it in the sink of hot water tripping the GFIC with my 3rd wife in the background yelling Dang if you only paid $39.00 for the *%%#$#&*&* thing throw the )*(&*%^$% thing in the garbage. So I put it in a zip lock bag put it on the garage floor and smashed it with my BMF hammer :):):) YES I FEEL BETTER

[twobears1224]

LMAO@HAYNES!!! i won,t smash mine but it might take me awhile to get it right.i have a friend that works with pid;s ect but he,s down in sc..if worst comes to worse i,ll talk to him.

delbert

[kiegscustoms]

What do you have to program into the PID? I havent ordered anything yet but if it is that much of a pain in the ... that haynes is smashing his with a hammer and delbert has to go to a PID specialist I think I could find other less expensive things to smash with a hammer:confused:

[Haynes Forest Products]

Well its quite simple really. You have to program in the set point. The set point is the temp that you want the controller to actuate the draw of valve. Plus as an added feature you want the controller to also let you know when the temp has gone over by 3 degrees. It all sounds so simple and most likley is for Experts in Pids. My Marcland came all programmed with all I ever will need. I pluged it in and hooked up the probe and stuck it in boiling water. It showed the temp of the water and the set point. and when they both matched the indicator lite came on and the valve opened. When the temp went over by 3 degrees it showed another indicator lite. When the over temp indicator lite comes on it also opens a Normally Closed Switch. Can be used to turn off burners on oil rigs or blowers on wood fired rigs. See quite simple really. Its just that Im a IDIOT

[kiegscustoms]

I don't know if this image will come up but don't you just adjust your set points with the little buttons on the bottom? The green # is the set point and the red # is the actual temp, right?

[Haynes Forest Products]

Kiegs I didnt get past trying to get the thing to recognize the probe that came with it. So when you got it it came with the K type probe Right? But you wont be using that type so you need the right one. NOW how do you know what one unless you have the one you want. Do you know if it will work with a 3 wire because that is what I was told I needed. Plus you want the 3 point over temp set point to always be over the finished syrup set point everytime you recalebrate during the day. NOW you call teck support and they cant speak my type of English........... Im done, Finished, Cant deal with it and the reason I used a zip lock bag was so I didnt miss a single piece when I had the BMFH out and it made clean up a snap.:)

[twobears1224]

i have figured out how to change from a K type probe to a three wire rtd.i do have that programed in...that was easy...the rest..well!!! :confused:

delbert

[b_mclarty]

I bought a stainless valve from the same seller. The one thing I am trying to verify is if the Viton seal is food safe.

Linky (http://cgi.ebay.com/1-2-Solenoid-Valve-120-Volt-AC-VITON-STAINLESS-S21V-/300460764156?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45f4db6bfc)

This is from a post earlier on in the thread. I, too, am trying to find out more about solenoid valve seals. I have found valves that have Viton and EDPM seals but the supplier cannot verify whether either is "food safe". Apparently some types of both are and some are not.

I'm on the fence as to whether I need to worry about the seal material since the contact time is so short. Also, I have no idea what types of plastics are in my well pump or faucets in my house but I drink water that passes through them every day.

Can anyone tell me whether the seal material is critical or suggest a source for "food safe", 110 volt solenoids if it is?

[Haynes Forest Products]

mclarty I think most valves have a small amount of the seal material in constant contact with the liquid it is holding back. California is outlawing any brass that contains trace amounts of lead. Yes there is lead in brass its alloyed in to make it easier to machine the brass. SO is the old brass not food grade?:mad: I remember the old cabin water pump that had leather cups.......FOOD GRADE LEATHER?? Is Viton food grade.YIKES I cant take it any longer.

[jimsudz]

Here's a pic of my auto draw me and my brother built. Looking for a good source for a 12" rtd pt100 any suggestions? Haynes I bought the pid from coldfusion X I hope I can figure out how to set it up. How's your buddie Tech-marc:mad:

[Haynes Forest Products]

Jim Call 1-800-884-4967 ask for Alex He was a great guy to talk to. Yea the guys at Coldfusion really like me;) Did you see the web site with my threads:lol: We got down and dirty and I gave up:) The 3 wire for the Marcland is $45.00 and its in the 12" range keep me posted.

[Haynes Forest Products]

OH YEA the part number is RBJBOTA140BA050....That one is $50.40 RTD Resistance Tempeture Device

[Dennis H.]

Ok I have to ask this why use a RTD probe over a Type K or other??

[Haynes Forest Products]

Dennis Im just a follower when it comes to the high teck crap. If I cant see it move I have no idea about How, What or Why:emb: I know the K type I got with my PID was short and ment for total submersion in a boiler. I do know that the prob that I have only reads at the very tip. Some probs are Bi metal type and dont read as quick and dont read in 10th of a degree.

[twofer]

Ok I have to ask this why use a RTD probe over a Type K or other??

Higher accuracy and stability.

[gmcooper]

A couple years ago I had all the pieces and parts to make my own auto draw speced out from Graingers. Except for the the solenoid valve. When it came down to fine print I could not find one to match the flow, temp, and pressure(lack of). The closest one I found did not have force when opening(can't think of proper term) so that it could get stuck shut even when on. I tossed the whole list after that. Anyone made their own and have it in operation for a season or more?

[Sugarmaker]

gm,
The one I saw local they bought the valve (Marcland) and built their own electronics therefor saving some dollars on that side of the project.
Good luck!
Chris

[JoeJ]

A couple of weeks ago, there was a post about where they bought a RTD PT100 with an 8" probe. Could someone please repost where they found a RTD with an 8" probe

Thanks Joe

[NH Maplemaker]

JoeJ, Go to E-Bay and do a search for RTD PT 100 controller! I just did and 19 came up. Jim L.

[jimsudz]

Joej I bought my RTD PT100 10" probe with 10' cable from Omega .com for $49 including shipping. I Haven't been able to get it set up yet to tell you how it works.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Was on Ebay today and there is a PID controller that comes with the 3 wire 10" probe all for about 49 bucks:)

[JoeJ]

I went on Ebay to look at 150 listings for a RTD PT100 temperature sensor with an 8" probe and found everything but that. My pan is only 8 1/2" wide at the threaded port.
Could someone who has actually bought a RTP PT100 that is 8 inches long post the number of the sensor and where they got it from.

Thanks, Joe

[Monster Maples]

All you guys that were building these, how did they work?

[hotfire]

i have a cousin in pa that sell & repairs control valves , and he is working on one for me. not sure if he will make more if they work but i will let you know

[Monster Maples]

I ordered the controller already, I am waiting on ordering the probe for now. I am going to get the valve tomorrow. I am just curious to know if the ones everyone made this year worked for them. I would like to wire mine to the valve and to the auf and aof blowers also. That way when the temp climbs too high it will shut those down. Just thought I would check with everyone to see if they had to modify the design or something before I get too involved and then read where everyone that made them switched valves or probes, etc.

[Haynes Forest Products]

I used a off brand valve on mine 1" SS solenoid vale from Ebay and it worked great for a $48.00 valve. I did need to clean it a few times from crap getting stuck between the diaphragm and seat. No big deal

[Marcland]

An RTD is more accurate, stable, will indicate tenths of a degree F, is unaffected by ambient temperature changes around the sugarehouse and the controller. It generates resistance (ohms) in a very linear measurement versus a thermocouple that generates a non linear measurement (millivolts). It is important to get only the probe temperature reading from the evaporator and not have the controller give you a reading affected by temperatures in the sugarehouse. Remember that 0.1F is about 0.25 brix. So when you use a thermocouple you will see wider swings in temperature readings caused by actual syrup and "room" temperatures. Save yourself the wandering temperature hassles and go with th RTD...they actually cost about the same, and today's controllers can be programmed for either.