Log the bush in summer or winter?

[markcasper]

We finally got someone to bid on our job that needs to be done. After 2 years and 4 bid tries. My situation is the bidder would like to do the cut next August-October time frame. I prefer it to be done in the winter on frozen ground. My forester is trying to convince me that late summer/fall logging is not a biggie provided that the soil is dry.

I am worried about compaction in the sugar bush by not doing it in the winter.

What are other peoples thoughts and experiences? I don't want to scare the guy off by limiting it to a winter only cut on the other hand. The job does need to be done as it is keeping me from placing new tubing and expanding into other areas.

[red maples]

My sister lives in VT and they logged in late summer/fall but the part they had logged only had access through a neighbor's property via dirt road. well when the guy started (this was last year by the way) the ground was dry. but 1/2 way through the project the got rain and the skidder and cutter ripped up the road and the created big ruts on their property and the neighbor made them shut down the project and refused access to that part of their property via the road. and they ended up loosing a little money because they couldn't meet their contract with the logger!!!

SO depending on your situation I would say wait until the ground is frozen.

[Thad Blaisdell]

I dont know how it is in Wisconsin but I wouldnt let anybody in my woods right now. It has rained and rained and rained here. Just my little tractor on the old roads is cutting in so much I hate to go on them. I cant imagine what a skidder would do.

[tuckermtn]

a sugar maker I know and respect a ton likes to do work in his bush in the summer/early fall because they get better regeneration of sugar maple. having said that you need to make sure ground conditions are right.

mark- is the logger going to use skidder/buncher/whole-tree or cut-to-length.

logging, like anything with equipment, is all about the operator...

[markcasper]

I believe he will be using a mixture of all. I went to the dnr office and consulted with the dnr forester that oversees my plan. Keep in mind that I have an independent private forester hired.

I told him the situation and he put his stamp of approval on the process, provided it is dry. Like say from August until freeze-up. We have crop fields along alot of the woods and tried to explain the reasoning of a winter cut and being able to utilize those fields for work areas after the crop is off.

One benefit to a fall harvest is that I will be able to retube some of the areas for tapping in 2012. I will be talking to my hired forester tonight and I guess give the ok.

I am interested in what prices are doing in the northeast.

My bid prices are the following:

Stumpage:
Red oak $150 /thousand

White oak-----$75

Maple---------$75
Ash---------all $75 /thousand
Basswood------$50 /thousand

Hardwood pulp--$10/cord
Aspen pulp-----$ 14/cord

[Brokermike]

I assume that is your cut of the proceeds cause here in VT you'd starve to death at those prices. If you're looking for new england MILL (emphasis MILL) prices Northern Woodlands is a good reference, or you can call around for a mill tally.

http://northernwoodlands.org/articles/article/mill-prices2/

[Thad Blaisdell]

For those prices I would cut it into firewood and sell it, you would get more. Hell I would girdle all of them for that price and let them die in the woods first. That logger is taking the lions share for sure. Is it a small lot? Or is there going to be a lot of trees?

[farmall h]

Yikes...might as well give it away! I haven't commercially logged since 2000 when I sold the skidder. Unless you have all junk wood those prices are wacked! Maybe they do things differently in Wisconsin?

[markcasper]

The prices listed is what I would receive. I then have to pay the forester, as well as the dnr stumpage tax. Basically there won't be much $$$$ left, but I don't have the time to cut it

I was told by the DNR forester today that those prices were good considering the economic circumstances we are in.

There is 16,000 feet of sawlogs, 240 cord of mixed hardwood pulp, 28 cords aspen.

[Thad Blaisdell]

How big is the lot you are cutting on? Is the logger the DNR forester's brother by any chance? I still would not give it away. It looks like you have the equipment even if it took you 5 years you would be better off to do it yourself.

[tuckermtn]

Mark- One thing I noticed in your summary was there was 16mbf of sawlogs and 268 cords of pulp. That is a high pulp-to-sawlog ratio. That is fine for sugarbush management, but for a logger, its a lot of potatoes and not a lot of meat. So the price of sawlogs might be low b/c of the higher amount of low-grade. There are other factors that make it hard to comment- distance to market, terrain, competition, etc..

having said that, here are some recent prices for stumpage in NH.

Oak- $275
soft maple- $80
sugar maple- $250
Ash- $110
hardwood pulp- $4 per ton ($10 per cord)

keep in mind the oak price was for this summer- when there was a spike in red oak demand.

[red maples]

I know you might not have time to do it yourself, but you wanna get something out of it. seems like the logger is getting a big chunk of this one. But like tuckermtn said its all about the market in your area I guess.

The aspen is pretty much junk except for pulp. so It would be good to get rid of that. but you would be better off buying a small processer and sell cord wood or something. just my 2 cents

[markcasper]

Thanks guys for all of your comments and suggestions! I value your input.

The acreage is 42 acres. The terrain is hilly, but not mountains. It definately is not flat. I just spoke with the forester and he said the guy will be using a processer and forwarder. There is about 5 acres where they will have to move all the wood up hill AND THEN BACK DOWN THE OTHER TO GET TO THE LANDING.

Their is alot of guys trying to sell firewood around here, so to me that is not an option. I have noticed 20-30 guys trying to sell firewood in the classifieds in the local paper. I have noticed prices for retail firewood moving DOWN into the $40/ a face cord range for dry oak. I have a well paying job in town and syrup business to tend to so I cannot justify doing the wood myself, nor justify the time it would take.

I am not aware of the logger being related to anyone involved.

I am between 2-3 hours away from any major pulp mills in Wisconsin, roughly 100-150 miles too far away. That probably doesn't help.

Yes...there is alot of pulp because 1) the woods was logged heavily in 1982
2) I am retaining most of the sawlog size maple-tappable ones.

3)There is a quite a bit of hard maple pulp areas where its simply overcrowded in that category.

4)Since the woods is enrolled in the Managed Forest Law, a harvest is mandatory and it is now 2 years late as it is.
I also must mention that out of 11 sales that my forester worked on, 7 of them received NO BIDS at all during the early November bid opening.

I will list the bids of a few others also submitted by my forester,

Sale #1
Mix hardwood stumpage--$100/ thousand
hard maple---------------$150
wh oak--------------------100
wh birch-------------------100
soft maple-----------------100

PULP
aspen-------cord-------$15
mix hardwood-----------$15
birch-------------------12

Total sale bid $2301.15

Sale #2

Stumpage a thousand

Red oak--------$400
Ash------------$150
mix maple------$100

PULP
mix hardwood-----cord--$20
oak pulp----------------$15
aspen------------------$30

Total sale bid $6050.00

Sale#3

Stumpage a thousand

mixed oak------$370
bur oak--------$200
mixed hardwood-$200

PULP
mixed oak------cord---$15
mixed hardwood-------$20
aspen-----------------$30

Total sale bid $77,810.00

Of the 3 sales above only one had 2 bidders. I did give the highest bids offered.
One last note regarding my sale is the forester mentioned that because its a sugar bush, that is a deterrent to bidders. I am paying him by the acre, so he could care less.

[tuckermtn]

around us, cut-to-length guys generally don't pay as much for their wood b/c their cost are so high- but with the right operator, they do an excellent job.

again hard to say without being there and knowing your markets, but I don't think your prices are all that out of whack...

my $.02 worth

[red maples]

yes there are quite alot of firewood processors here too they all started doing a few years ago when the oil prices spiked and full cords were well over $300. The prices have drop off considerably and I know guys that have regulars but with all the pellet stoves and oil prices back down a bit. they just aren't making money. I didn't think of that. So I guess if you have a reputible logger and by law you need to log off the land then if the ground is dry then go for it I think one thing you might want to put into your contractto avoid ripping things up is if its too wet they need to stop production. but if there is good drainage since its hilly then you might be OK. guess its just your call!!!

[Mio1]

I had a quote of 90 a thou a few years ago from a friend and he told me with the equip. damage he wouldn't do it if I'm going to make syrup.