CV's Latest

[backyardsugarer]

Has the design changed on the check valve adapters? I see leader has them on clearance from 2009/2010.

It seems they are the way to go after reading the recent article published in the maple news.

According to the 4 year study on sap yield I can expect a 17% decrease in sap yeild this year with 2 year old tubing. (this being my second year using the same tap and tubing).

The study showed after 4 years on tubing that by using CV's and new drops there was virtually no decrease in sap yield.

How much are they each?(Stubby and adapter) I can not find the prices on-line.

Do you have to replace the stubby and adapter each year?

Chris

[mapleack]

They changed the composistion of the CV adapter to be sure there wouldn't be any more breakage issues. The stubby now has a beveled inside edge now to help it mate with the CV better without damaging the "fingers" that hold the CV ball in place. I'm going to buy the closeout CV's, but buy new design stubbys for the taps I'm converting over. You only need to buy the stubby once, but a new CV adapter every year.

[Randy Brutkoski]

The clearance on the cv adapter is .25 cents apiece. .10 cents cheaper than the original price. The fingers on the new ones are built better.

[sapman]

So the study used new drops every year? That would almost seem to make the use of CVs irrelevant. We know new drops and spouts make a lot of difference. I believe there were studies with old drops and new CVs each year, but don't remember off hand what the results were. Dr. Perkins knows, I'm sure.

[red maples]

they are I think around .60 with stubby and CV(that was bascom's price a few weeks ago) . check on bascom's website they have them with price. you can get the updated ones from bascoms but I think someone here said you need to make sure you ask for the newer ones or you will get the old ones.

[backyardsugarer]

They did use new drops and taps over the course of the study and it did help increase production but only about half of what the new drops with CV's were able to do. I would like to see the study about simply replacing the cv's every year because at the scale I am (600 taps) there is no way I will put new drops in my entire woods every year. I would like to get into a rotation of replacing 200 drops per year for a 3 year rotation.

Chris

[red maples]

thats a good idea. I was thinking of doing the same thing splitting up into 3 sections and changing out a section every year. I may start this year. (secomd tyear on this tubing) then I don't have to put out too much of my own money this year.

[markct]

i was wondering the same thing about why they were on clearance, i am glad to know thats the only difference, doesnt sound too critical, maybe just hit the stubby with a countersink to add chamfer if it seems to be a big issue. im more upset about the frustrating oversized barbs!

[DrTimPerkins]

So the study used new drops every year?

Sorry I missed this thread earlier....no, we did not use new drops in all the studies each year, and neither did Cornell Univ (Steve Childs). We've done some with new (regular) adapters, some with new CV adapters, some with used drops, some with new drops. Too much to explain here. Maple Digest has a couple of articles on the work. They are on our website http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc Hard to have all the answers since we've only been working with them for 3 yrs (1 yr with prototype, 1 yr with pre-production model, 1 yr with full production model). We're working as fast as we can to get all the answers....but it's tough when you have to wait 10 months until the next season comes along.

[DrTimPerkins]

Has the design changed on the check valve adapters? I see leader has them on clearance from 2009/2010.

Yes, there have been several slight improvements made to the CV adapter and stubby system for the 2011 season. These include a slight change in composition to a plastic containing impact modifiers to reduce breakage as well as slightly sturdier finges that hold the ball in place. The new version of the stubby has a chamfered connection to the adapter to reduce the chances that it will hit the CV adapter fingers and break them. The old stubby's will work with the new CV adapters and vice versa.


It seems they are the way to go after reading the recent article published in the maple news.

According to the 4 year study on sap yield I can expect a 17% decrease in sap yeild this year with 2 year old tubing. (this being my second year using the same tap and tubing).

The study showed after 4 years on tubing that by using CV's and new drops there was virtually no decrease in sap yield.

I would encourage everyone who wants the full details of this work to look over the UVM Proctor Maple Research Center webpage at http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc under the "Recent Publications" section on the right. Although the basis for this work is that microrganisms are what causes mid-late season slowdown in sap yields, this is not a new observation. This phenomenon has been recognized since at least the 1950s, but was apparently forgotten or ignored.


How much are they each?(Stubby and adapter) I can not find the prices on-line.

I'm not entirely certain what the prices are. I think I'd heard prices like $0.35 for the new CV and $0.25 for the 2010 version, but don't hold me to it. Local prices can vary a bit. You'd have to check with Leader and their distributors for the actual prices. Stubbies are $0.29 I believe.

I do believe that last yrs version does come at a significant savings. As long as they are water-cured (put a few tablespoons of water in the plastic-bag with them), they should be fine.


Do you have to replace the stubby and adapter each year?

You should replace the adapter each year to get the full benefit, but no need to replace the stubby each year.

We will be conducting several more studies on CV adapters during the 2011 season, as well as a bunch of other things.

[spud]

I am hoping Dr. Tim can answer some questions about his studies on the CVs. I read your article 3 times over because i found it to be very interesting. You showed in your studies that in 2007 you tapped your trees on the first week of January. The chart shows that you got 5 gallons of sap average per tap that first week. The studies then show overall you got 7 gallons of sap per tap more that year by using the CVs. As you might know in past letters i grew up right down the road from the PMRF in Underhill Vermont. We always used to get a week or so of warmer temps in early January but nobody would ever tap their trees because the thought was your holes would dry up way to early. I am wondering what you would advise a sugarmaker in your area as to when to tap? You stated that you would not be afraid to tap early with the CVs. How early do you feel you could tap your trees and still remain productive until first week in April? I am also wondering if you had spouts pop out or loosen because they were in the tree so long? You also mentioned that when you pulled the spouts in the spring the holes were still wet and clear. Was the sap quality still good enough to make quality syrup? So i guess the big question for you is ( If you were a sugarmaker in Underhill wanting to make the most syrup humanly possible from your sugarwoods when would you tap you trees? Also when would you pull the spouts? Would you run constant vacumm from start of season to end of season? My questions are more geared for the sugarmaker trying to make the most money out of his/her woods. The CVs seem to be a great product for all sugarmakers with pipeline and high vac. Thanks for your work Tim.

Mike

[DrTimPerkins]

I am wondering what you would advise a sugarmaker in your area as to when to tap? You stated that you would not be afraid to tap early with the CVs. How early do you feel you could tap your trees and still remain productive until first week in April? I am also wondering if you had spouts pop out or loosen because they were in the tree so long? You also mentioned that when you pulled the spouts in the spring the holes were still wet and clear. Was the sap quality still good enough to make quality syrup? So i guess the big question for you is ( If you were a sugarmaker in Underhill wanting to make the most syrup humanly possible from your sugarwoods when would you tap you trees? Also when would you pull the spouts? Would you run constant vacumm from start of season to end of season? My questions are more geared for the sugarmaker trying to make the most money out of his/her woods. The CVs seem to be a great product for all sugarmakers with pipeline and high vac.

Hi Mike,
That's a lot of questions. Will try to hit some of them at least.

In terms of tapping, we would normally watch the weather closely in late-Feb. Takes us about a week to tap and repair small problems. However research has shown that tapping early does not reduce sap yields, and this would be even more so if using CV spout adapters or new spouts/drops. Our research this past spring indicated that tapping in mid-January with CV adapters was not a problem. This year we decided (for our production bush) that we would just tap in mid-February unless the weather were really cold. We'll tap some research chambers in mid-January again to see what happens. The reason this is of interest is that very large producers have to tap early in order to get all their taps in by the time sap starts to run.

When to tap depends upon a lot of things. If I had my own bush with a few thousand taps, I guess I'd be ready to go by early-February (in this area) at the latest, and tap when it looked like good sap weather was coming up. With a larger bush, I'd tap earlier and not worry about loss of sap by taphole drying (as long as I was using a new spout/drop and/or a CV adapter).

We pull the spouts a few wks after the season ended. Much depends upon how the season goes.

We would run the vacuum most of the time, except for when things were solidly frozen up tight. We'd not shut it off until a good amount of time had passed after things started to freeze. Basically keep it on until there is no liquid left in the lines.

For the 2009 season, we got good sap from the CV sections until the very end. In 2010, after the hot weather in early-April, there was still some sap flow, and we could have made commercial syrup for a bit longer, but the sap quality wasn't great, so we stopped. Since we want things to compare to the CV areas, we don't put CVs throughout our woods. That means that even if the CV are still running, it is only about 1/5 of our total # of taps, so we don't have enough sap to boil. If we had all our woods with CVs, we would probably have kept collecting and boiling sap. This coming season (2011) about 1/2-2/3 of our woods will be CVs, so we may be able to keep going a bit longer than usual.

The CV spouts didn't pop out from being in too long. They will heave some, like all spouts will after a hard freeze. We haven't seen that they do this any more or any less than other spouts.

[spud]

Thank you for the information. You were saying that in your area you would tap Early Feb (no later) and keep an eye on weather. Although if large operations tap in Jan this does not hurt the amount of overall sap yield. If this is the case would it not be a good idea for a smaller operation to tap in early Jan? That way when you get that 3-7 day warm spell in early Jan (which happens most years) you could get an extra 5 gallons of sap per tap. Even a 1000 tap woods could make an extra 116 gallons of syrup with that extra sap. It might be alot better to work in the woods in early Jan because of less snow also. I found your studies to be very interesting that in 2007 you had sap flow the first week of Jan and averaged 5 gallons per tap in that time frame. I can't help but to wonder how much money was lost by other producers because they did not tap until Feb. Just the thought of a 1000 tap operation missing out on an extra $4000 in syrup gives me a sick feeling. I really like your work Tim and enjoy reading all your research and comments on the Trader.

Mike

[DrTimPerkins]

If this is the case would it not be a good idea for a smaller operation to tap in early Jan? That way when you get that 3-7 day warm spell in early Jan (which happens most years) you could get an extra 5 gallons of sap per tap.

Some larger operations do that. They have to start tapping in January, but if they get a decent run before they're finished, they'll stop tapping and start boiling. Most smaller operations don't want to have to deal with all the cold weather issues at that point. A lot of folks up this way have plenty of snow by January. No guarantee you will get that "January thaw" and the extra run either. If the weather was cooperative, you'd have to be sure to tap early enough. Overall though, there is no reason it couldn't work most of the time. There is the off-chance that some weird season could mean that you had temps very close to thawing, and some microbial activity that would start the taphole clogging process, but it wouldn't be warm enough for the sap to run much. In that case, if you didn't either have a new spout/drop or weren't using CV adapters, you might see some amount of early slowdown in sap flow from your tapholes.

In summary....might work, then again it might not....best to give us another year or two of testing before adopting this method.