Fall and/or Cherry Tapping

[Old School]

I am considering tapping some Cherry trees this fall as an experiment. There are some Cherry trees in my woods that wouldnt make good lumber, so I thought about tapping them to see what it tastes like. I'd heard you can tap in the fall or spring but not both, anyone else try this? Any reasons not too?

Somehow I missed the "Tapping Sycamore" thread until now. Cherry would HAVE to be better than Sycamore :)

[Sugarmaker]

OS,
Not a clue on this topic. Cherry flavored syrup? I will stay tuned for results.
I thought tapping in the fall was like snipe hunting? You heard a lot about it but never saw it done!:)

Regard,
Chris

[3rdgen.maple]

You think last spring was a bad season try tapping in the fall. It is alot more dependant on the weather seeing how we have not had a freeze in months. Ive tried it without success but tapping cherry trees. Theres a new one. Is it possible to get sick from tapping some trees? I know I tapped birch last spring and did not like the bitter taste at all. Sap even tasted not so good to me.

[TF Maple]

My GUESS is that it won't work because there are only a few types of trees that have sap runs, so most trees don't have sap runs in the freeze thaw cycle.

One thing you might look for, to determine if sap will run, is if the sap suckers tap the trees. Look for the straight line of holes that they make, if you see some like they do to maples, then maybe that type of tree will work. I'm thinking about trying ironwood trees because the sap suckers tapped them last spring as they migrated through to their nesting grounds. I believe the true name of the trees is Eastern Hopp-hornbeam. Sap was running out of them just like it did on my maples at the end of the sap season.

Just as a side note, Birch trees and grape vines run sap in the spring due to root pressure, so that is a different process than maple.

[Quabbin Hill Farms]

don't know about tapping Cherry trees but there are been a few articles written about fall tapping and I have done some myself. In the fall the sap is not as sweet usually only 1-1.8 % sugar conent while in the spring it can be as high as 3%, we don't get as many of the freeze thaw days in the fall (at lleast in eastern Ont. where i live) as we do in March /April so the quantities gathered are less. if you have an RO machine then the sugar issue is not a issue, if not your doing alot more boiling. I don't think there has been enough research to show if tapping in the fall and spring affects the trees. I have parts of my bush that are difficult to get to (too soft) in the spring so I tap them in the fall, and do the rest in the spring

[DrTimPerkins]

I don't think there has been enough research to show if tapping in the fall and spring affects the trees.

Fall tapping is not something that is new. A few producers seem to rediscover it every couple of years. In any case, as others have stated, the sap is not as sweet in the fall, there are fewer freeze/thaw periods, and at the end you might have tanks full of ice that can't be processed. It is definitely NOT a good idea to tap the same tree BOTH in the fall and in the spring, as this essentially doubles the amount of wounding in the tree. Similarly, the idea of tapping in the fall with a smaller spout and then reaming to a slightly larger size in the spring has been shown to NOT be a terribly effective strategy due to the fact that the reamed tapholes tend to dry out (clog up) very quickly in the spring, thereby reducing flow to a very large extent. For all these reasons, fall tapping is not especially common.

I could be wrong, but I don't believe cherry syrup is made by evaporation of cherry sap. Chances are you'd not get much sap flowing out at all (only a few types of trees actually produce much sap upon freeze/thaw...birches and maples mainly). Rather, I think cherry syrup is made by boiling sugar and fresh cherries (the fruit). The bark and pits of cherries contains a bitter cyanide compound that is mildly/moderately poisonous. Scape some bark off a small cherry twig and you can smell it.

[Thad Blaisdell]

The bark and pits of cherries contains a bitter cyanide compound that is mildly/moderately poisonous. Scape some bark off a small cherry twig and you can smell it.


I believe the leaves are poisonous also, as I remember We lost some cows that ate leaves off a black cherry tree that fell into the pasture many years ago. Or it could be that when they ate the leaves they ate some of the twigs on the end.

[western mainer]

Yes it is the leaves, we had cows and would only cut the cherry trees in the early spring before the leaves came out.
Brian

[DrTimPerkins]

I believe the leaves are poisonous also...

Yes, leaves too. I've heard of horses and cows dying from eating the leaves of downed or cut cherry trees.

[Paddymountain]

Years ago I worked for Asplundh trimming trees, we always had to carry cherry brush that we cut or trimmed out of pastures for that very reason. Always hated to see that stalk of brush at a light pole half a mile
away in some pasture,what a drag!!!!

[Dill]

I've always heard its the wilted leaves of a cherry that are poisonous. Not much in nature can harm a cow, sheep or especially a goat, but I've always heard wilted cherry leaves can be fatal.

[lew]

Don't think for a minute that a goat can eat anything and not get ill. They are not the tin can eating, stomach of steel animal they are thought to be. They are just a picky an eater as the next critter. It's just that we expect them to eat what a cow or a sheep eats, tender grass. Goats prefer to eat things that grow above our waist. They love brush, certain weeds(not all), and will eat grass only because that is what is available. They eat grass before they will eat clover. I have actually tried to kill the clover off in my pasture. Also, if given a choice, the goat would rather eat dry hay before living grass. They do love their grain, it's like candy to them. To see something really funny, take one hand full of grain and one hand full of old sumac leaves and put them in front of a goat at the same time. Her head will go back and forth a few times between the two before deciding which is better.

As far as cherry leaves, yep it contains cyanide and that'll put them down for the count. Also, goats are very susceptible to mold. A very small amount will give them a Thiamine deficiency which affects the nervous system very rapidly. We have noticed the first systems to be blindness then stumbling then paralysis then death. It can be reversed if caught early with large doses of Thiamine.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Yes, leaves too. I've heard of horses and cows dying from eating the leaves of downed or cut cherry trees.

I think it is only the wild cherry tree leaves that are a problem. Never know of anything being harmed by eating the fruit bearing cherry trees that you can buy in the stores. Hope I am not creating a confusion here, but wild cherry trees have fruit on them too and the cherries are very small and I have never known anyone to eat them.

[western mainer]

Up here we pick the coke cherries and make jam. The cherries are very sour.
Brian

[DrTimPerkins]

Up here we pick the coke cherries and make jam. The cherries are very sour.

I remember making chokecherry jelly as kids. Needs a LOT of sugar, but quite tasty. Later we moved to making wine. :) Keep your eyes out for bear when collecting though....they like chokecherries too. Lots of bear around where I grew up -- which was nice to see.

[DrTimPerkins]

I think it is only the wild cherry tree leaves that are a problem.

Pretty much any part of any true cherry (Prunus), including sweet cherry, contains some amount of the toxic compound....except for the fruit. Even the pits have it.

Somebody else mentioned wilted leaves as being more toxic. That is true, if you mean on a per unit weight basis (because there is less water there).

Great wood, nice fruit, but don't try to eat anything else from a cherry tree.

[jasonl6]

I know cherry leaves are toxic if injested by animals. We recently had some timber taken off and they fell a few trees in one of our larger pastures. They warned about putting cattle in there until the leaves were gone.

I also recall a local man losing a large number of his turkeys. Turns out the water source was contaminated by the cherrys dropping from the black cherry tree above the water.

J

[Z/MAN]

Great wood, nice fruit, but don't try to eat anything else from a cherry tree.[/QUOTE]

What about using the wood for smoking? We find cherry wood the best for smoking Kielbasa. Have been using it for generations.

[DrTimPerkins]

What about using the wood for smoking? We find cherry wood the best for smoking Kielbasa. Have been using it for generations.

I doubt that would cause any problems -- you're still kicking :) The compounds in question are most likely destroyed by the high temperature.

[twobears1224]

this is a intresting topic it really has me thinking.i do know wilted cheery tree leaves are bad for animals.i know people that have lost horses because they ate cherry leaves.i also know the chrrey pits are bad for you because of whats already been stated.now we do make chokecherry jelly about every summer and nobody has died yet after dozens of years and who knows how many gallons of jelly.
now on to the truck of the cherry tree.i,am not sure that i should tell this or not but,i,am going too.if anybody was going to die or get sick from a black cherry tree it would be me.i,ve worked with alot of black cherry trees logging them and the lumber.when,i was logging i used to take a small chunk of cherry wood and put it in my cheek kinda like chewing.it kinda started by mistake.i,de gotta enough sawdust and wood chips in my mouth and one day i just got to thinking and popped a little bit in my mouth.i think it was one of those hotter then heck summer days and i was about outta water..it tastes just like black cherry soda.now i,am not sying it,s a good or bad thing just that i,ve done it and i,am still here.
i do belive a cherry tree would run like a maple or birch.i know if you cut one down the stump will get all wet and very sticky at times.

delbert

[davrhods]

i read somewhere that animals with 4 stomachs were affected by choke cherry -death ,but birds would get drunk on the fruit.

[DrTimPerkins]

i do belive a cherry tree would run like a maple or birch.i know if you cut one down the stump will get all wet and very sticky at times.

Yes, they will run some....but definitely not like birch or maple does.

Birch and maple have a very unusual wood (xylem) anatomy, with air in the lumen (empty space) within the wood fibers, rather than water, which is in most trees. Upon freezing, the air space in birch and maple constricts, creating a vacuum that causes water uptake. Upon thawing, the air space expands, creating sap stem pressure. Cherry trees (and most other trees) don't do this because water doesn't expand/contract as much as air does.

All trees will have some pressure and sweet sap in the "inner bark" (phloem) that exudes when you cut them in the summer. The wood (xylem) of nearly all trees, including birch, maple, cherry, and pretty much every other tree, is actually under negative pressure (vacuum) throughout the entire time they have leaves on them. This is because of transpiration (water loss from leaves) "pulls" on the water column, stretching it like a series of rubber bands extending from the leaves to the roots, thereby causing water uptake through the roots. If you drill a hole in most trees in the summer, air actually gets sucked in (destroying that section of the wood for water uptake), although you might get a small amount of sap seeping out from the inner bark (phloem). The sap in the inner bark is actually moving downward, as the sugar is translocated from the leaves to the roots for sugar.

[DrTimPerkins]

i read somewhere that animals with 4 stomachs were affected by choke cherry -death ,but birds would get drunk on the fruit.

Birds don't eat the leaves....just the fruit. They don't have teeth to grind up the pits, so they pass through their gut pretty much intact. Other animals will eat the leaves, and/or grind the pits in their teeth, thereby releasing the toxin.

Guess all our mothers were wrong....sometimes it does pay to not chew your food thoroughly. :)

[brookledge]

That is why birds are so good at spreading seeds. I hate the fact that they spread bittersweet like they do. I was doing some work near a tower that had birds dropping the seeds and they were tingging of the metal. sounded like someone was throughing small stones
Keith

[MASSEY JACK]

Dr. Tim, this seems like a good place to ask about black birch. I have quite a bit of it on my property. When I cut them in the winter the stumps run sap in the spring and get a bright pink mold on them. It smells a lot like peppermint. My dad buys soda from a small bottling company in Willimantic Ct. They have Birch Beer soda.Tastes and smells like the black birch. I was wondering if you know if they get the extract for the soda by tapping the trees and making syrup out of it? Do you know anything about it? We used to make homemade root beer when I was a kid. We bought HIRES extract and whipped it up and put it in bottles to ferment or cure or whatever it does to become carbonated. It was really good root beer. I would love to see if I could make some birch beer with my kids. Any help is appreciated. Also, my boss brought some birch syrup back from Alaska for me. I thought it was bitter.

Jack

[twobears1224]

yesterday,i was visiting with some friends and they where telling me about a lady they know that is allergy to black cherry.she ordered some firewood and got sick after she handled it.at first she figured she got bit by something in or around the wood pile but later she found out it was the black cherry wood.

delbert

[DrTimPerkins]

I was wondering if you know if they get the extract for the soda by tapping the trees and making syrup out of it?

No, birch extract is made from the bark. Most birch extract is artificial flavor though, although with a fair amount of looking you can find the natural extract.

You can certainly make syrup from tapping birch though. It flows later in the spring than maple (flow comes from root pressure in birch rather than stem pressure as in maple), sap is somewhat lower in sugar content, and the syrup has a higher invert (glucose+fructose) content and is typically darker and stronger-flavored. Doesn't taste bad, as long as you don't try it thinking it is going to taste like maple syrup.

[Revi]

Black birch looks just like black cherry, so don't confuse the two when you are tapping. Cherry is poisonous.

We used to chew on black birch twigs as kids. They have a nice taste to them, which cherry definitely does not!

[red maples]

Cherry looks alot like older black birches not younger birches they have a smoother bark. but once it gets I guess bigger than 12" dia. the bark starts to break up and get shaggy like a cherry. the cherry trunks offen get all twisty too.

beware that the sugar content of birch sap is very low usually between .5 to 1 % so you will need that much more wood or oil to make syrup. I did it a few years ago. you will get excited beacuse you get so much sap so quick those things run like crazy. but then cooking it down takes for ever its very dark and has a distinct slightly bitter caramel/molasses flavor. good for cooking but I don't care for it as a table syrup but I have afriend that does!!!

[Brent]

Birch and maple have a very unusual wood (xylem) anatomy, with air in the lumen (empty space) within the wood fibers, rather than water, which is in most trees. Upon freezing, the air space in birch and maple constricts, creating a vacuum that causes water uptake. Upon thawing, the air space expands, creating sap stem pressure. Cherry trees (and most other trees) don't do this because water doesn't expand/contract as much as air does.


This explanation has had me thinking on more than one occasion that this is not the whole story. If it was just the air sacks expanding and contracting, why wouldn't we get the same action on a warm day, say 35 at night and 45 in the day time ???

It must have something to do with the smaller branches and twigs actually freezing.

Runs rarely are good 24 hours past the last freeze.

[DrTimPerkins]

This explanation has had me thinking on more than one occasion that this is not the whole story. If it was just the air sacks expanding and contracting, why wouldn't we get the same action on a warm day, say 35 at night and 45 in the day time ???

It must have something to do with the smaller branches and twigs actually freezing.

Runs rarely are good 24 hours past the last freeze.

This is definitely not the whole story (I didn't say it was), but it is a synopsis of 90% of it. There are lots of small refinements, but this isn't the place to go into it. There are pressure changes due to freezing of sap inside cells (the vapor pressure over ice is far lower than over water) and due to osmotic pressure. And trees aren't monolithic, parts of them freeze and thaw at different rates (north vs south, fine branches vs stem, etc.). Far too complicated to get into here. Look at the description in the North American Maple Producers Manual, but even that is a generalization of the dominant mechanisms without all the nuances.

Yes, freezing of small branches/twigs are involved.

A somewhat more detailed description of the process is at http://www.uvm.edu/~uvmaple/maplesapexudation.pdf Even that is just a quick overview. Recently there are some who believe that osmotic factors are more important http://tinyurl.com/23vlsfh

Actually, air temperature changes do affect sap stem pressure. Pressure will build during the day as it warms and ebb at night when it gets colder. This is due just to temperature change, and can go for a week or more during a thaw after a freeze, but very little sap will dribble out (some will continue to dribble) after 3-4 days. The pressure changes are there, but there just isn't enough moisture left in the tree by that point for the sap to run much because no uptake has happened (the freezing/recharge phase has not occurred). Watch http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc/?Page=treemet1.html&SM=cammenu.html next season (starts up in late-February usually) and you can see this happen. Of course, under vacuum things are considerably different in some ways.