XLE-440 membrane

[sapman]

After talking with Joe at Atlantic RO today, he felt that I should go with the XLE-440 in my situation. So I'm looking for others experience with this one.

Thanks

[Dan W]

I just recently spoke with Joe about this and am considering the XLE too. Can take a little higher pressue than the NF270 with the same output and at a cheaper price. I am discarding the 3 2.5x40 membranes that came with my RO and going with a 4x40 XLE. Any improvement with an RO is bound to be an advancement. We'll se how it goes!

[danno]

He recommended the same for me as well. He only seems to recommend the 270's when you have many, many taps and can afford to pass some sugar in return for very high flow rates. But, those on this site sure talk highly of those 270's and that they only pass at pretty high concentration levels. Russ?

Ya think he'll give us a deal if we all buy together? I need 4 - 4"

[mountainvan]

make sure they are fiberglass wrapped. I had 2 xle4040 tape wrapped and at the end of a year the tape was coming off.

[tuckermtn]

my RO came with the 270s in it...never been above 10% or so, but so far I like them a lot...very good flow rates and zero sugar passing...

[lew]

When you guys are talking about sugar passage at high pressure or concentration levels on the NF 270's, how high is high? In other words, how high a pressure will they take before sugar passage and how high of a concentration level before sugar passage?

[Russell Lampron]

I never run mine over 300psi and I get a trace of sugar when I get over 14% or so. Below that no sugar that is detectable with a refractometer. I open my valves right up and look to remove water not to get a certain concentrate level. I recirculate my sap to get to the higher concentration levels and get up to 18% or so. When I first start concentrating I am getting total flow of about 400 gallons per hour out of my 150gph machine. I can get 1/2 of the water out of 600 gallons of sap in about 2 hours. The sugar passage is worth it to me.

[PATheron]

I ran 270s in my seprotech last year. I ran mine no higher than 300 either becouse the pressure vessel I bought is only rated at that. I recirced the first time I used them to 18% and I tested it about every time it came up a percent or two and calibrated my refractometer and I could never measure any passage. I thought they worked real good and I know people say they pass but I could never see it personally. I wonder if they only do it if your single passing it and running pretty high pressure or something. If you recirc it its easier on the membrane and puts less stress on it becouse its bascially just an open flow situation. Theron

[802maple]

The sugar passage is hard to detect unless you take 20 parts permeate and boil it down to one part and then you can see if there is any sugar passage, the other thing to think about is what other minerals may be passing that should be there. I am not a scientist by any means but there are studies of minerals that may be passing. What do you think Dr. Tim?

[DrTimPerkins]

The sugar passage is hard to detect unless you take 20 parts permeate and boil it down to one part and then you can see if there is any sugar passage, the other thing to think about is what other minerals may be passing that should be there. I am not a scientist by any means but there are studies of minerals that may be passing. What do you think Dr. Tim?

You are absolutely right. Most refractometers (especially the digital types) are not terribly sensitive at the low end of the scale, so testing sugar passage as you suggest is the most reliable way. All membranes have different characteristics in regards to mineral (and sugar) passage. This is often described in the detailed literature available from the manufacturer of the membrane.

[Brian Ryther]

Back to the question, Does anybody have experence with the the new XLE that Lapierre is offering.

[802maple]

Brian,

Basically it is the Mark 1 that they have been offering right along, just changed the name and also most of them need a different plug as they are slightly smaller, so that it wouldn't infringe on copy rights. They are slower but don't allow valuable minerals and sugar to pass at higher concentration that some membranes do.

I like these membranes. I now some are willing to let a little sugar pass as to save time, but if you put the numbers in to play I am not willing.

Lets say that you are a 1000 gallon producer and your sap is averaging 2% if it would take 40.000 gallons of sap to produce that syrup. You will throw away about 30,000 gallons of permeate. Now if you put it thru one popular membrane that is known to pass sugar above 10-12% concentration and that membrane is allowing 1 point of sugar by( which is very hard to find unless you do the 20 to 1 test that I mentioned before) you will be throwing away 34 gallons of syrup at the end of the year. At a average retail of 50 dollars a gallon, $1700.00 is real money to me and I am willing to work a few extra hours to get it.

[sapman]

Since posting the question, I've talked to a few larger and well respected sugarmakers (by me anyway). They are basically telling me to go with the XLE440. Can't beat it for price, either. I'll be buying from Joe at Atlantic RO. Price is less than half what Leader wants.

[danno]

Tim - have you already put in your order? I'm about to order the same - why don't we combine our order and save on shipping? Don't know how quick you need them, my order may be a little slower as Joe and I figure out adaptors to use on my membranes.

Dan

[powerdub]

I hate to be a jerk on this but you are running a 6 x 16 from 2200 taps. With a 600 gpm RO I would go with a slower membrane to ensure no sugar is passing. Seems like you can afford the extra time. Heck after 802's post im thinking about the XLE, even if it gains 2 gallons its worth looking at. I guess what i'm getting at is some days when I concentrate at 6% I don't have enough sap to boil.

[802maple]

Long time no see, How are you doing Scott?

[Brian Ryther]

I do not feel that small rig / big ro is the best way to go. I feel that big rig and big ro will make you the most money. I should have well over 3000 by next season. I do not want to boil for more than two hours a day. And I want my ro to be able to keep up with the evap. That gives me the rest of the day to be in the woods checking lines. Big (used) evaps are cheap. Why not boil as fast as you can?

[802maple]

There are arguments both ways, but I say it is what ever works the best for the individual sugarmaker. I would go the small evap, big RO and not boil anymore with the right schedule and still get in the woods, but that is what works for me. Now having said all that, you can go to small on the evaporator depending on your amount of taps.

If you have a sugarhouse and a large evaporator it would be a bad move to downsize. But if you don't have anything I would go my way, properly sized.

A 3x10, 1800 gallon RO, will do 5000 taps and not miss any sleep easily. But that is my opinion and sometimes that and a dollar still won't buy you a candy bar. LOL

[Thad Blaisdell]

I am with 802 on this theory. Bigger RO and smaller arch. I have heard of a guy in Canada that uses a 30 x8 and RO's to 24% and makes a ton of syrup every year. I heard the tap count and was amazed just dont remember the number.

[sapman]

I like more RO and less evaporator, for the simple reason that I don't have much sweet left in the pans after boiling. Seems petty, maybe, but kind of nice.

[sapman]

Dan, I have not ordered yet. One producer I talked with always orders mid-winter, so the membranes are "fresh". Not sure if that really makes sense or not? What do you think, 802?

I will also need to figure out adapters for mine. But yeah, lets put our orders together and save where we can!

Keep in touch,
Tim

[PATheron]

One thing that seems to have been my experiance is you can never have too much R.O. I can kind of see Jerrys point on the big ro and small evaperator and Brians too. Down here Ive gone Jerrys route with more ro and less evaperator but Ive just never had quite enough ro to do like Jerry says. You need quite a bit of ro so you can do a large volume of sap up to those big numbers in a relatively short period of time or your always waiting to get started boiling. Jerry's right about this it doesnt matter how high you concentrate to itll work fine in the evaperator. Better really becouse it comes off so nice other than the first draw. You have to get a method down for that. I think down here where I live you need a pretty big ro and have it really down on how you maintain it. It has to be washed and rinsed properly. Its critical here becouse we get warm weather in season so much we process very poor quality sap. Its either that though or you dont make syrup. I went with a bigger evaperator this year for two reasons. Number one you can buy them for a song. Number two by the time I get up and check all my releasers and make sure they are working, recirc all day to get ready to boil. Try to keep any major leaks fixed. Boil a few hours every evening. Wash, rinse and properly care for the ro's your just exhausted all the time. Im going to over equip on everything. R.O., evaperator, sap hauler, whatever. If I can find a way to do things quicker and easier thats what I have to do to do the taps I want to run. Like Jerry says whatever works best for you personally is the thing to do. Hes totally right on the little rig though. If you have ro enough to feed 20% plus in a 3 by 10 youll be taking off 20 or 25 gallons per hour. Itll be easy too. Thats pretty rediculous numbers for that size rig. Theron

[Brian Ryther]

I figured some of you would jump all over my big rig comment. I am sure it is a case of "what I have is the best because that is all I know." Jerry is right in that if it is what you have then go with it. But like Theron says you can get a 6x rig for cheaper than 3x rig. It does take a lot of sap to sweeten the big pans, but at the end of the season when you push the sweet out it all evens out. The biggest problem I have with the big evap is the first draw. It is not for the weak of heart. Once I have syrup in the draw off box I get a 15gal draw in less than 5 minuites.
I guess I am thinking to over size everything. I am not replacing my existing membrane. I am adding another hp pump and tower. I am expanding my ro to a 1200. I am going to go with the XLE for the new tower.
Now the question is what order to put the membranes in. XLE first or second?

[Maplewalnut]

As you all know I am a RO greenhorn but I do a lot of filtration analysis at my real job. If the set up is truly in sequence and and not feed simultaneously from a single manifold I would think you would want to put your tighter membrane last in the daisy chain in this case in order to recapture any sugar that has passed through previously. This will put the majority of the work load on your existing membranes and keep your XLE440 from fouling faster than need be. Think of it almost as an insurance policy

My 2 cents

[maplwrks]

I agree---I would put the tightest membrane second. In my experience though, it won't be long before you put a high flow membrane in the second post also.

[802maple]

Again it is what ever makes a person happy. Getting a membrane in mid winter doesn't automatically mean it just came out of the oven. My opinion is a bird in the hand is is worth 2 in the bush. If you can get one now I would take it, they may not have one later.


Dan, I have not ordered yet. One producer I talked with always orders mid-winter, so the membranes are "fresh". Not sure if that really makes sense or not? What do you think, 802?

I will also need to figure out adapters for mine. But yeah, lets put our orders together and save where we can!

Keep in touch,
Tim

[danno]

Tim - was speaking with Joe the other day (trying to get my adaptors figured out), and he said he always keeps XLE's in stock and he mentioned their long shelf life. So either way, it will probably be sitting on his shelf or yours.

[sapman]

Brian, what membrane is in your first tower? NF270? Will both membranes want the same ph and temp to wash with? Does anyone know, is there really just two washing products for membranes? Just powder or liquid? Seems like the PVD1 is the only one I know taking liquid.

[Brent]

I figured some of you would jump all over my big rig comment. I am sure it is a case of "what I have is the best because that is all I know." Jerry is right in that if it is what you have then go with it. But like Theron says you can get a 6x rig for cheaper than 3x rig. It does take a lot of sap to sweeten the big pans, but at the end of the season when you push the sweet out it all evens out. The biggest problem I have with the big evap is the first draw. It is not for the weak of heart. Once I have syrup in the draw off box I get a 15gal draw in less than 5 minuites.
I guess I am thinking to over size everything. I am not replacing my existing membrane. I am adding another hp pump and tower. I am expanding my ro to a 1200. I am going to go with the XLE for the new tower.
Now the question is what order to put the membranes in. XLE first or second?
The Centre d'Acer in Quebec, their big association, found that the 270 membranes allowed too much potasium to pass and that it had a distinct effect on the final flavor of the syrup. They presented this at the Int Maple Assoc meeting a few weeks ago in Stratford, Ontario. They told me they would post the whole study on their web site
http://www.centreacer.qc.ca/ in English in a few days, but it's not there yet (Nov 20). You can find a link to English on the home page, but only a small amount of their research is available in English.

If their panel of tasters is correct (and believe it or not they taste test EVERY barrel produced in Quebec in their central storage facility) we shouldn't be using any NF270's. The 270's are NanoFiltration membranes NF-
All the true osmosis membranes passed the taste test.

I'm waiting to see the English study before I order my new membranes.

PS I do have slide presentations that were used at the conference. They give you an idea what they were talking about but
there are a lot of details missing and you're guessing at what they said in between. I missed the actual presention (**** !)
If there's interest, I'll post the presentation slides on our web site.

[sapman]

Well, that makes me happy I went with the XLE. I believe the PVD1 is also nanofiltration.

[DrTimPerkins]

The 270's are NanoFiltration membranes NF-
All the true osmosis membranes passed the taste test.

The vast majority of "RO" machines and membranes used in the maple industry today are NOT true reverse osmosis devices. In most cases they are nano-filtration machines using nano-filtration elements (not true membranes). True ROs operate at about double the pressure of NF machines, and are thus the machines and membranes are far more expensive (bigger pumps to get higher pressures, vessel chamber and plumbing is beefier to deal with the higher pressures). True ROs tend to be even more even sensitive to sap temperature as well. Real RO membranes are finicky, and don't take as much abuse.

The ideal membrane/nano-filter would retain only sugar, and not affect any other elements, and would operate quickly at relatively low pressures. Unfortunately we don't live in an ideal world, and different membranes/nano-filters have quite different characteristics (especially flow rates and rejection rates). Typically the faster the rate of sugar passage, the lower the rejection rate for other elements. Basically, by choosing a membrane/nano-filter with fast throughput, you're often trading off somewhere else. That may mean that you do get some small amount of sugar passage (not good if you can avoid it), and you may lose other minerals (especially potassium, an element with a small hydrated radius). Then again, you could end up with the same results by abusing your membranes and trying to rejuvenate them by chemical treatments.

While it is true that expert taste testers may be able to detect the difference in side-by-side syup tasting, it is quite unlikely that most people (even most producers) would ever know the difference. It is highly unlikely that your customers are going to be sitting at the table eating their pancakes thinking..."gee, this syrup tastes like it doesn't have enough potassium."

All things considered, it is up to the individual producer to know what it is they're buying and decide for themselves how to proceed depending upon their specific management objectives. Being informed is the first step.

(Most) Everything you (never?) wanted to know about RO/nano-filtration and membranes can be found at http://dow-answer.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/3428 Good evening reading.

[Brent]

Important points about the pressure and care of the membranes.
I hope the report from Centre Acer gives its blessings to the XLE.

[DrTimPerkins]

Hmmm .... dyslexia strikes again ....

Thanks...correction made.

[wiam]

How much faster are xle's over nf90's in 4 inch?

Will

[jpasulka]

The XLE-440 is a true Reverse Osmosis membrane. It is tighter than the NFs -- NanoFilters.

The Mark 1 is the same membrane and chemistry as the NF90-400, but with a smaller (1.125")permeate tube. That is why it has a slower flow rate.

The NanoFilters -- NF90-400 (sq ft) & NF270-400 are good membranes for sap with greater mineral content.

The XLE-440 is tighter, but has 40 sq ft additional membrane surface, for a better flow rate.

Which membrane works best depends upon the sap characteristics, which usually depends upon the soil and the type of maple tree. (joe)

[jpasulka]

Will,
The XLE-440 (8 in) is a popular membrane. However, I have sold the XLE-4040, but have mixed reviews on its performance.

The NF90-4040 is tighter than the NF270-4040, which flows better but can pass sugar at about 10-12% concentration.

Maybe by the end of this season, I will be able to provide an opinion. Stay tuned. (joe - AtlanticRO)

[sapman]

Did anyone ever mention what the max temp should be when washing the XLE? I was told only go to 105. Does this sound correct?
Thanks

[Brent]

go to this page on our web site
http://www.duffyslanemaple.ca/syrup-equipment/syrup-equip.html


at the very bottom are links to copies of Dow's instructions
for cleaning and startup.

read and re-read.

[sapman]

Thanks Brent! Good info!

[sapman]

The tables give differring ph depending on temp. Still not sure what combination is the best. I've heard ph of 10, so I guess the max is 113 degrees, according the that.

[doocat]

I have a question for the experts. We have two membranes. The first is a fluid systems and the second is a post we bought with a NF270. Right now we are running the 270 second because that is the way we bought it. We run to 15-16 percent. If I put the 270 in first will Fluid Systems catch any passed sugar or minerals?

Thanks, Craig

[danno]

The tables give differring ph depending on temp. Still not sure what combination is the best. I've heard ph of 10, so I guess the max is 113 degrees, according the that.

Tim, take a look at pg. 6-7, figure 2 on that Dow cleaning instructions Brent linked you to. For biofouling (sap), looks like the wash is not very effective until you hit ph 12. I've been trying to stay at ph 13/77 f.

[sapman]

That makes sense, Dan. Some say the soap doesn't really become effective til 113 or something. Not sure about that. Looks like the 12/95 f is what they want on there. Maple dealers will probably have a different take on this!

[sapman]

Craig, I think your idea of switching membranes around makes sense.

[sapman]

Talked with an expert today. He says ph 10.5 and just not over 120 degrees, letting the machine shut off. Yet another opinion!

[markcasper]

Does anybody know what the english reference for a CDL70-400 membrane is?

[markcasper]

I will rephrase this......what membrane is given the name and number of CDL70-400?

[Amber Gold]

Looking to buy new membranes and looking at two choices, the NF-90 or the XLE-4040. Below are excerpts from Filmtec's brochure. How can the XLE be the highest flowing membrane, yet have lower flow rates than the NF-90? Which is the better membrane? The XLE has more surface area, so would this be the better one, or does it mean it'll flow slower?

XLE-4040: This is FilmTec's highest flowing 4" RO element which ensures higher retention of trace minerals but at lower flows than the NF-90. 87 SF of membrane

NF90: This element offers highly stable sugar retention but at much lower flow rates than the NF270. 82 SF of membrane

[wiam]

Two years ago I ran 2 NF90's and got way under rated gph. Granted I had no idea how old or how well taken care of they were. Last year I put xle's in it and running to a higher % was pushing close to 300gph at a little pressure. Also my older ro can run at a higher pressure than most newer ones. I ran the nf90 at close to 500psi and have been running the xle at a little over 400. I had trouble with my machine heating the sap up with the old membranes and the higher flow rates seam to cure that. I did fill a 20qt pot with permeate last year and boil it down to just fit in my test cup. The hydrometer sat on the bottom so the xle's are not passing sugar running at 11%.

[Amber Gold]

I currently have ~8 year old NF-90's in the RO and ran them last season and was getting about 180 gph through the machine while recirc'ing. I tested and they didn't pass any sugar, but would like to get some better performance this season.

What should I expect out of a new set of NF-90's and what will the XLE's do?

William, so you were going straight to 11% in a single pass and getting ~300gph through it? So is that about 40gph of concentrate and 260gph perm?

[wiam]

William, so you were going straight to 11% in a single pass and getting ~300gph through it? So is that about 40gph of concentrate and 260gph perm?

Close to that. http://www.americanro.com/1772776.html Based on the price and the difference in flow rates in this chart I got xle's. Based on their performance in my machine I will probably buy them again.

[PATheron]

Josh- I run nf 90's, nf-270's and xle-440's. I have a pair or each just the way it turned out with what I decided to go with each machines and I think I like the xle's the best. I shoot for a concentration of 15% as a norm and the 90's are the slowest but no worry of passing sugar. The 270's are the fastest and tested as not passing sugar but if they are washed incorrectly I understand its easy to make them pass and Im always paranoid about it but the xle's are not known for passing and are inexpensive and flow in between the two Id say. So long storry short Id probly buy them over the others from what Ive experianced. Theron

[Amber Gold]

Thanks Theron, just what I was looking for, someone who's ran all three back to back.

William, that's a good link, but what's the difference between low energy membranes (the XLE-4040) and the nanofiltration membranes (NF-Series)? Also, when comparing flow rates, the XLE's are running 2600 gpd @ 100 psi and the '90's are 1500 gpd @ 70psi. How much is the additional pressure increasing the XLE's flow rates? Also, even with the higher pressures, the XLE still has a higher rejection rate than the '90's.

[markcasper]

Why does it seem that the Mark 1's came out and was suppossed to be the cats meow, have been hearing many people not wanting to go with them again. Am I missing something or wasn't the mark1 especially made for sap? And now it seems the xle's are the item of choice for a replacement?