New Evaporator

[MilesTeg]

First of all I'd like to say hi, this is my first time posting but I've been veiwing the trader everyday for 6 months now.

A little background info before the question. We decided to upgrade this year from a leader half pint to a leader 30X8 max flue pan and a vacume system. I have to say i wasn't ready for all of the work this upgrade has sent my way.

Ok my first question is about fire bricking the new arch. Like i said its a max flue pan with a traditional wood fired arch. First i wanst ready for the arch not to have a base on it. Let me explain underneth the firebox area there is no sheet metal there so how do i brick it? We will probably use a blower blowing into the ash pan access door if that makes a diffrence and thinking ahead we will probably be futting on an air tight front arch with a real blower next season.

The next question is should we just use mortor and fire brick or is it worth doing the blanket or board underneath the bricks? And ive also heard of people not mortoring the bricks after the ramp they just loose fit them and work sand in the cracks is this coomon practice?

I cant think of any more questions at the moment but im sure you'll be hearing form me again. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Most arches do not have sheet metal on the bottom of the ash pit. Mine merely rests on the concrete floor which serves as the bottom. Unless your evaporator is resting on a wooden floor, you will not need firebrick on the bottom, just the sides.
I used to just have firebrick lining. I added archboard when I built my new sugar house and moved the evaporator. It makes a huge difference. I used to scorch my legs standing beside the evaporator. Now I can put my hand on the side during a full boil. Only mistake I made was using whole brick all the way to the top. I should have used splits on the top row.
Welcome aboard!

[bobbyjake]

If you don't brick in the bottom and you have a concrete floor (even if they are just laid in there dry) you run risk of the concrete breaking all up due to the heat. If you don't get it real hot, then it might not, but our concrete floor was reduced to powder where our firebox sat.

With a conventional arch, you are really going to need to get it hot to get the performance out of the Max pan, so protect the floor.

[MilesTeg]

That was my thoughts too. This rig will be sitting on a concrete slap so what would be the best way to protect it? Should I put it on a piece of metal or brick the inside?

Next question I have is does anyone know of a cheap place to get a roof flashing for the exhaust pipe? I'd really like to go through the peak of the roof but we could also do a regular one angle flashing if we had too.

Thanks for the info guys!

[Sugarmaker]

Miles,
Congratulations on the new rig.
Sounds like many more taps in your future to feed a MAX pan 30 x 8.
Sounds like you need whats called a roof jack for the roof. Do this right the first time it is very important feature. Most of the evaporator companies have ready made ones that may work for you. Give them a call, have the pitch of the roof and also whether the evaporator is on center of the peak or offset to one side of the peak. These things, plus the size of your pipe will help them get the correct roof jack for you.
We want to see pictures:)
Regards,
Chris

[MilesTeg]

You guys asked for pics so here are some! Once again if anyone sees anything please pitch in and give advice!

http://i896.photobucket.com/albums/ac168/KeithPolisse/PA270112.jpg
http://i896.photobucket.com/albums/ac168/KeithPolisse/PA270111.jpg
http://i896.photobucket.com/albums/ac168/KeithPolisse/PA270110.jpg
http://i896.photobucket.com/albums/ac168/KeithPolisse/PA270109.jpg
http://i896.photobucket.com/albums/ac168/KeithPolisse/PA270108.jpg
http://i896.photobucket.com/albums/ac168/KeithPolisse/PA270107.jpg
http://i896.photobucket.com/albums/ac168/KeithPolisse/PA270106.jpg
http://i896.photobucket.com/albums/ac168/KeithPolisse/PA270105.jpg
http://i896.photobucket.com/albums/ac168/KeithPolisse/PA270104.jpg

[bobbyjake]

we've used a piece of corrugated aluminum in the bottom and laid a piece of arch blanket under it (pinned the arch blanket up so it didn't sag down and touch the floor). Our arch sat on 2" firebricks, so it had some clearance under it as well. The corrugations (run them front to back and not side to side) were a nuisance to clean, but it was light weight and no one saw it and because it was aluminum it didn't corrode too quickly from the acids in the ashes.

We've also just dry laid half bricks in the bottom when the arch sat on the floor.

Both work fine for what you are trying to achieve. You just need to keep some of the heat from the slab.

[Thad Blaisdell]

I am looking at your first pic. How did you connect your lateral to the mainline. Looks like you connected with a saddle? or just a hook for now?

[C.Wilcox]

MilesTeg-

Nice looking operation. I am jealous of your spacious sugarhouse. Judging from the cans on the shelf, I guess the coffee of choice is Folgers? :) One thing I did notice is that the deck for your feed tank appears to be supported by a 2X's nailed to a 4X post. That looks to be a pretty big tank and will be awfully heavy if full of sap. At the moment it looks like the only thing supporting it is the shear strength of the spikes in the 2X. Have you used it like this in the past? If not, I'd recommend adding a shoulder stud on each of the legs from the 2X's to the floor just as a bit of extra insurance. Things could get ugly if that collapsed while you were boiling.

[MilesTeg]

Bobby
Im leaning towards now is to put fire brick on the bottom section but my concern with that is when the angle iron starts to expand that it is going to push into and ruin the concrete so I still might put some kind of metal under it.

Thad
Right now they are just hook connectors right now im going to install the saddles at a later time. The only reason for this is that im borrowing the tooling and I fiqured 3 tools on loan was enough so when i give those back im going to pick up the punch tool. Now where our laterals come into our wet/dry system were going to try to use "Canadian" method with "Y" fittings and basiclly making a bull wip upto the dry line. I dont know if anyone on here has tried it or what they think about it.

C.Wilcox
Ya im def not complaining about the room it's going to be nice in there when were boiling. About the tank platform i really want to say don't get me started but here we go! I'm a civil engineering student right now and let me tell you i dont like the setup at all. So it's been an on going arguement between me and the old man (dad), because he's been a carpenter his whole like so theres 2 diffrent train of thoughts there. We are going to put footers in to tie into our retaining wall and run some cross bracing. But i guess well find out if we can get that tank filled with sap /fingers crossed.

[C.Wilcox]

Your dad is probably right that it will hold, but I always like to be on the conservative side for things like that. Getting bathed in 300 gallons of cold sap and possibly wrecking a beautiful new evaporator for the sake of pride and a couple 2Xs would be hard for me to take. I would definitely feel shame for a long time afterward. :)

Either way, it looks like it's going to be a really nice setup.

[Thad Blaisdell]

Now where our laterals come into our wet/dry system were going to try to use "Canadian" method with "Y" fittings and basiclly making a bull wip upto the dry line. I dont know if anyone on here has tried it or what they think about it.

I am actually going to use a combination of several methods I have seen. I am going to take a 2 inch T PVC I am going to put reducers in all three sides, 3/4 for the lateral coming in, bottom will match the size of wet line, top will match the Dry line. Then I will take a connector that has the T part that is threaded and thread it directly to the bottom of the PVC "T". The top I will do the loop to the dry line and then connect the lateral. This method I believe will incorporate some of the better aspects of both a manifold and the Y fitting method. The problem I have with the Y fitting method is when the sap enters the wet line how does it displace the air that is there? How does that air move to the Dry line? I dont see how it can possibly move back up the Y and into the dryline if the sap is coming into the Y....??? especially on a big run. My idea would drop the sap straight down onto the wetline with the Dry line straight above so I believe there could be some transfer. Any thoughts anyone?

[Sugarmaker]

Miles,
Thanks for the photos, They tell us a lot about your operation and I see lots of expansion, and good things happening!
I thought the same thing on the tank support. (Sorry dad) But I would also add some additional bracing/support just to play it safe.
You have a lot of moves to make to be ready. Hope you and your Dad have a great time working on this project.
Regards,
Chris

[danno]

Welcome to the trader MilesTeg -

Our sugarhouses look allot alike. You're in the next county east of me - we've spent allot of time on Bradley Brook over the years. You asked about a place to buy a roof jack for your stack. I've always used Krell Dist. in Syracuse. http://krelldistributing.com/

Prices are reasonable and they carry many sizes/styles.

[brookledge]

Do you have any other storage for your sap? The reason I ask is that is a very big feed tank for the size evaporator you have. With the heat from the steam it will heat up the sap more than you would like causing the bacteria to grow much faster and should you keep sap in the tank for a prolong time it will deteriate. It doesn't mean you can't use that tank but I would not fill it and have the sap sitting in it for along time. The thing to remember is you want to keep sap as cold as possible right up to the time you boil it.
It is not going to rot in a few hours but it might cause you to lose a grade.
another thing to keep in mind is how easy can you get into that tank to clean it. The inside of the tank will get all slimmy from the bacteria and will need to be cleaned frequently.
So one recomendation I would make if possible use a smaller feed tank and put that tank outside to be used as a storage tank. Or another option would be close the area off so the steam will not heat the tank.
Keith

[MilesTeg]

Thad
Next weekend I'm planning on finishing plumbing the lateral into the wet dry system. I'll make sure to take some pics and post them.

About the tank ill give a little more info on it its 1550 gal tank and yes i know thats too big. The reasons we went so big is for expansion. Were looking at 400-500 taps this year once again i know this is really going to be pushing that 30X8 to the max. That is another one of the arguments i lost with the old man, but you have to give him some small victories! He's already talking about expansion again so thats why i went so big with the tank. A little more about the tank platform its built with 2X12 and 2X10 tied into 5 4X6 and 2 6X6. I am going to be putting some angle bracing on it when I have time. I'm really praying that it will be enough. As for the heat getting to the tank im not too worried it's hard to tell from the pics but the stack will be almost 5 ft away and we still haven't built our plastic hood leading up to the cupola yet so no steam will go any where near it. Cleaning the tank will be a mess i can fit into the opening but I'm going to have to climb onto the rafters to get there fun fun!

Danno
Thanks for the info ill give them a call!

[Sugarmaker]

Danno,
These rigs crank out some heat and that tank may get pretty warm at 5 feet away! WOW 1550 gallons x 8 lb per gal = 6.5 tons, agreed you want good support under that tank.
I have a 400 and a 350 elevated tanks with a wall (just board and batton) between the tanks and the stack, about 5 foot away, and it still gets warm up there after boiling for a couple hours.
Are you boiling the 13,000 taps of your dads too?
Yep tank cleaning will be a challange for you too.
Chris

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

As long as you have a band around the bottom of the 4x4's or X bracing on each side, they will be fine. I have a 320 gallon Lappierre round bottom tank and it has a 4x4 post on each corner. It is a completly free standing tank platform and the tank sits close to 6' off of the floor. each side is X braced good and I fill the tank to the top and never feel unsafe about it.

[dean]

Only mistake I made was using whole brick all the way to the top. I should have used splits on the top row.

I was wondering if you could clarify this. I am in the process of bricking my evaporator and looking for all the info I can bet.
Thanks

[adk1]

Well, Iahve made up my mind. I am going to order a custom WF Mason 2x4 with blower. I cant find a decent used evap around, and I can get this one new for a heck of a good price. I jsut dont see how I can go wrong. I havent heard anything bad about these evaps. The yseem to be the right size for me, will probably start out with 50-60 taps my first year and see how it goes. Hope to have my first year be spring 2012. that is my goal. I need to make this work if Iam ever going to do it myslef!

[Maple Ridge]

It sounds like alot of experiance here. I have a question and I hope someone can help. I purchased a new evaperator this year, and fired it up for the first time yesterday with water in the pans. I could not get the syrup pan to boil. The flu pan boiled fine. I am thinking of bricking the opening at the base of the stack pipe to close it up a little. Would anyone have any ideas on this?

[adk1]

well, the flue pan must be gettign the most intense fire/heat due to the design. How long did you ahve it running?

[Maple Ridge]

Over an hour. I tried cutting back on the draft but all that did is slowed down the boil. I tried shutting the stack cap a little and again not much lick. I bricked it up the way the instruction said. I might need to reduce the amount of space between the bottom of the unit and the base of the stack.

[ADKMAPLE]

maybe add aniother layer of firebrick directly under the syrup pan to get the heat/flames up higher

[MilesTeg]

Just a thought how much wood did you have in it? I keep mine as high as the door or until I can't fit anymore in. Do you have forced air or air under the grates?

[Maple Ridge]

Air under the grates. I put the wood to it (that did,t sound right:lol:) I mean I had quite a bit in it. The draft would just suck the flame to the rear.