Sizing mainline tubing for dual-line system

[GeneralStark]

I m setting up a dual line system for a sugarbush on a moderate to steep slope with potential for 400-500 taps. This year I am hoping to get 150-200 taps on the system but would like to size the mainline for potential future expansion.

I plan to run two pipes up the center of the bush with lateral 3/4" mainlines off those. The wet/dry mainline run will be about 1500' and each lateral mainline will be no longer that 500'.

My question is, what size tubing should I use for the wet/dry mainlines? Can I get away with 3/4" for both, or should I bump it up to 1"?

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

I'd go with the inch. Labor is the same either way and the additional material cost is not that much more. You want lots of room for both air and sap movement.

[Thad Blaisdell]

1" should be more than adequate. There are several possibilities that you could do though. You could oversize your dry line to 1.25 till you had gone past the first few mainlines then drop down to the 1" and on the wet line the last 500' you could drop that down to 3/4. Depends on what you are looking to do. But over all the 1" all the way would be the easiest to think about.

[vermaple]

I would stay with the 1 inch.

Gordon

[maple flats]

I am certainly not an authority by any means since I am setting up my first vac system before next season, BUT when I asked the same question 2 seasons ago as I was installing the wet line for a future wet dry set up at 1500' length with a max of 550 taps I was told 3/4" wet and 1" dry. I did the 3/4 wet and used it as a gravity system 2 seasons with no lats going directly into the main wet line, every lat enters a branch 3/4" line and then enters the main thru the lower half of my manifold set up which will be connected to the dry line before the 2011 season. Does this mean the tubing I have now at 3/4 is obsolete before I even complete it? As I read and asked lots of questions about wet dry in early winter 2008 everything said 3/4 wet and 1" dry for 1500' and 550 taps. Have the sizes proved to be inadequat in the recent past?

[jason grossman]

I would suggest using 1" wet and 1 1/4" dry line. The general rule of thumb is one size larger for the dry line. All depending on the rate of flow you expect out of your trees. it may cost a few more dollars than 1 inch all around but it will keep production up make a better pay off in the long run. also as stated earlier keep all of the 5/16 lines in you lateral mains and try to avoid putting them in the 1 inch wet.

[lew]

I installed a wet dry system 2 years ago on a 1,400 tap. All mainlines are 3/4 inch and about 100 feet apart. The wet line is 1 inch and the dry line is 1 1/4 inch. The first year we produced 27.5 gallons of sap per tap. Last year we produced 19.5 gallons of sap per tap ( with only 3 frosts occuring after we tapped). In the first year we had 3 runs that produced 3 gallons per tap in a 24 hour period and a couple of 2 gallon days. Last year almost all were 1 gallon per tap days. During both years I only saw sap come down the dry line when sap first started to run and the wet line was frozen. this occured for less than five minutes then all sap came down the wet line. I should also note that the first mainline "branch" is only 300 feet from the vacuum pump. I can't remember where I got my info on setting this up, but I believe I was told that a 1 inch wet and a 1 1/4 inch dry was good for up to 2,000 taps. By my experience I think this may be correct or pushing it just a little.

[bigtreemaple]

I would suggest using 1" wet and 1 1/4" dry line. The general rule of thumb is one size larger for the dry line. All depending on the rate of flow you expect out of your trees. it may cost a few more dollars than 1 inch all around but it will keep production up make a better pay off in the long run. also as stated earlier keep all of the 5/16 lines in you lateral mains and try to avoid putting them in the 1 inch wet.

Why is it a bad idea to let laterals enter the wet line directly? I have always heard this but never understood what the problem was.

[PATheron]

Bigtree- Theres two problems with putting the lats directly into the wet line. Number one first thing in the morning if the wet line is froze up the lats that are hooked into it wont be able to use the dry line to start running sap which is one advantage of the dry line. Number two, and way more importantly in my opinion, if you put a saddle on the main wet line sometimes saddles are prone to leaking and if that one does itll freeze the mainline into a solid mass of ice right at the saddle and shut your whole bush down sometimes for much longer than necessary. You still should have a dry line to use but it just causes extra problems. Its even worst if there is no dry line becouse then it completely shuts everything down. Thats the idea anyway. Try to put all the taps on the mainlines going to the trunk wet/dry. Theron

[bigtreemaple]

Thanks for the info Theron.

[Thad Blaisdell]

Biggest problem is when you try to wash it....... that is a NO-NO

[Amber Gold]

I have a similar setup...500+ taps, minimal grade (2%), and 4 branch lines coming into it. I'm going to run a 3/4 and 1" wet/dry. I'm going to have two 1200' and a 900' branch lines coming off of it and I want to make sure I get max vac. to everything. The wet/dry may be a bit overkill, but for the nominal expense, the vac. will get there.

Question I have is, what size vac. line do I need? Distance from vac. pump to releaser is 900-1000'. Two years ago I ran an 800' of 3/4" vac. line and lost only 0.5" from pump to releaser...I was only running 18" though...is high vac. different?? I'm thinking a 1" vac. line should be adequate.

[ennismaple]

Jason & Theron,

We're retrofitting one of our bushes by adding a 2nd dryline above the existing mainline. In the 600' section we're twinning there are a half dozen laterals connecting to the existing mainline - which will become the wet line. Do we just accept that those lines will produce less sap than optimal or is there a way to avoid this problem? Thanks.

[PATheron]

Marty- Tough call, thats what Ive done in the past. Biggest problem for me, like I said is if you get a leaky lateral and its sucking air through that saddle into the line sometimes the line freezes up solid right there. Now you still have the dry line but still it may take a long time to thaw that spot out. Well into the next run. Then your only relying on the dryline. My thought on that is that running on the dry is all right if thats all thats available but I dont think its as good as when it runs on the wet becouse seems to me it has to go full column to go up into the dry and the vac wouldnt be as good. Thats just my thought. Im into the same situation this year and Im removing the lats and putting them on a new mainline and plugging off the saddles for now. I may even go back and remove the saddles entirely if time allows. What I do on all my new bushes now is I run the wet dry and never put the saddles on them. Ill take taps that are right near it and run them to the nearest lateral mainline even if its a ways away. Maybe in your situation leave that line there and run a new mainwet line-expensive or plug off the saddles go to where theres a saddle about midway and t into your wet and dry and come out the middle like a booster and put a spider for the lats to go into or a stub piece of mainline? Just thoughts. Theron

[jason grossman]

well, i too have been in that situation and here is my advice, not very different than Theron's. for half a dozen lines i would leave them in for now. of course depending on if they are good trees or not. you will lose some production but does the lose outway the expense for the gain. as long as the saddles, taps, and 5/16 are tight and don't leak it won't be a big issue. if you remove the saddles you still have to deal with a repair dot and a clamp that may leak? as long as your wet line is not full all the time you will still get some vacuum there. retro fitting old mains is difficult in the future if you have funds available i would put in some new line and run all the taps into lateral mains. i am finishing a job in ny and there are some of the 5/16 that do run long along the wet/dry, so that i can put them in a lat main. the possibility of a leak on 4000' of wet/dry is not worth a few saddles. my 2 cents

[ennismaple]

Thanks guys. There's a few spots I can run the laterals against the fall-line of the terrain to get to a lateral mainline. That'll minimize the chance of leaks causing problems. Some spots the laterals would be so long I don't think it's worth it.

Marty

[Thad Blaisdell]

Are the laterals that are running into the wet line close together? If so you could just add a mainline right up beside the wet line.... just a thought.

[ennismaple]

Are the laterals that are running into the wet line close together? If so you could just add a mainline right up beside the wet line.... just a thought.

That's a good idea - thanks! The mainline could be only 20 to 30' long but would eliminate most of the laterals coming into the wet line. One more job on the To Do List!

[Thad Blaisdell]

Maybe you can use the existing pipe as the mainline and add in the new pipe as your wetline. That way you wont have all the splices..... a little more work but less connections.

[ennismaple]

The existing mainline is 1-1/4" and most of the manifolds are the cut-in type with 6-way star fittings. I'd prefer to leave it as the dryline for better vacuum transfer and put the 1" below it as a wet line. Anything I do in this bush should be a big improvement as it was difficult to wash the far end of the mainline due to poor vacuum transfer.

[BradWilson]

So are you saying that a 1 1/4" wet and 1 1/2" dry lines are too big for 400 taps. There are lots more trees that can be tapped in the future I'd rather not buy tubing twice.

[PATheron]

400 taps that are run on a steep slope will work fine with one one inch line. 400 taps on the level youll be fine with a one inch wet and one inch dry. If its flat and your going to have a lot more taps go for it with the big line. Itll work better the bigger it is up to some point. Only bad thing about really crazy oversizing things itll heat the sap up pretty bad if its black. Itll make a lot of sap though.