More artificial syrup issues!

[wdchuck]

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/article/20100908/NEWS03/100908035/Welch-seeks-probe-of-natural-syrup-product-labeling

http://www.logcabinsyrups.com/products.html


Having already dealt with this product on my customer's shelves, I'm officially pissed off! This stuff is a "blend", meaning about 2% maple, as a guess. The problem, in my opinion, isnt necessarily the product itself- Hell, there are plenty of fake products out there, and they arent really the competition anyway. The bigger underlieing issue here is that Log Cabin is now using the type of container that has always been associated with our 100% genuine real maple syrup. It isnt that much of a stretch for a consumer to grab this off the shelf thinking its a bargain when it's probably just more of the same ol' high fructose corn syrup crap. The only solution that i can come up with is to ask my clients to keep this seperated and diffentiated from my real maple, and so far, they are totally on board. But still, this just pisses me off!.....What do you guys think?

[DrTimPerkins]

Having already dealt with this product on my customer's shelves, I'm officially pissed off! This stuff is a "blend", meaning about 2% maple, as a guess. The problem, in my opinion, isnt necessarily the product itself- Hell, there are plenty of fake products out there, and they arent really the competition anyway. The bigger underlieing issue here is that Log Cabin is now using the type of container that has always been associated with our 100% genuine real maple syrup. It isnt that much of a stretch for a consumer to grab this off the shelf thinking its a bargain when it's probably just more of the same ol' high fructose corn syrup crap. The only solution that i can come up with is to ask my clients to keep this seperated and diffentiated from my real maple, and so far, they are totally on board. But still, this just pisses me off!.....What do you guys think?

It is a very cleverly designed product, although misleadingly so in my opinion. Size/shape of jug matches that of maple syrup. All "Natural" ingredient labeling. No HFCS. Maple leaves faintly stenciled on the package. What also seems to be happening is that the company appears to be "purchasing" shelf space right next to maple syrup. Typically (at least in this area), the table syrups and the maple syrups aren't right tight together on the shelves to provide a little differentiation. Through BOTH the packaging and immediately adjacent placement on the shelves, it is very hard for all but the most discerning customer to tell that this stuff is NOT maple syrup.

[maplecrest]

i was wondering why sugarhill was so backed up on making jugs and now i know why. for filling those orders . vermont maple sugar makers ***. jugs ha orders have been backed up in production so my county supplier has told me.

[red maples]

your wrong its 4% and I think that the log cabin all natural is made of syrup from brown rice? what ever....anyway ...I brought this one up when it first came out. I have to say I do like the flip top design...but I don't like the fact that it is in a traditional real 100% maple syrup container either. Around here the supermarkets have it all together no separation.

But I am not really pissed off about it. If you have someone that likes real maple and they have any sorts smarts hopefully they will realize that anything from the fake companies is indeed fake or at the very least a blend.

[Homestead Maple]

I've worked a maple booth at a NH fair for a few years and it really has surprised me how many people know so little about REAL maple syrup. To me this stuff that Log Cabin is now marketing will draw a lot of people away from the real thing and it will become 'good enough' for them. Like others have said here, the word "Natural", the very clever packaging, will have a lot of people trying it that will probaly never try real maple syrup. You'd be surprised how many children that have grown up on Log Cabin, Aunt Jamima and the like, do not like the taste of real maple. I think this "stuff" will draw people away from real maple. Has anyone read the label on this to see what is natural about it? It doesn't say 100% natural!!

[802maple]

We have to be very careful when we are going down that path of what we are telling or regulating as to what someone can put their product in, as alot of the containers that we presently use, especially in glass is a container that was used by the "fake syrup companies". It could backfire on as to the fact that we are trying to steal their customer base.

Also we have to be careful about what is natural and what is not. It certainly could be said that our product is not natural. The sap from the tree is natural but the syrup we make from that sap is processed in anyway you look at it. I know you guys are going to jump me now for saying such trash, but all I am saying is be careful what can we open, it may be full of worms

[red maples]

there people that have grown up with "pole Syrup" me being one of them. my parents didn't have alot of money and the syrup we did have was kept in the freezer in the metal can and only came out when for sepecial breakfasts and honestly I hated it because it tasted like metal. I I prefered Mrs. Buttersworth. So sue me!!!!

But now I know better. There are alot of people out there that would be fine with log cabin all natural blah blah blah!!!! Would I buy some to compare maybe. this way I know what I am up against...but am I really up against anything??? who knows. Nothing wrong with a little competition.

As for the container I still wish they would have picked something other than the maple jug. But on there part I am sure they looked at the legalities of it!!! they can afford .......wait just a minute

here is a link check it out!!!!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100909/ap_on_bi_ge/us_maple_syrup_flap_3

[DrTimPerkins]

i was wondering why sugarhill was so backed up on making jugs and now i know why. for filling those orders .

That's exactly the point. These are NOT SugarHill jugs, which are used exclusively for maple syrup, but they look almost exactly like them. I would imagine that SugarHill, which owns a patent on the design, is not at all amused.

[RileySugarbush]

I wonder if any of those complaining are selling the mersh that makes up the 4%........


I do agree it is tricky marketing on their part though.

[RileySugarbush]

And Dr. Tim,

Is Sugarhill's patent on the appearance or the materials and manufacturing of the bottle?

[DrTimPerkins]

Is Sugarhill's patent on the appearance or the materials and manufacturing of the bottle?

I'd have to look it up to be certain, but am just headed out the door. Sorry. Either way, it apparently didn't stop this company from copying it. Sort of a David vs Goliath problem legally.

[allgreenmaple]

Interesting link to go with this...http://www.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0WTfbCvU4lMy8EA1E.bvZx4;_ylu=X3oDMTJwbGU0MnV uBGNwb3MDNgRlZAMxBGcDYWQ4YmU3MDY1Zjc2MTBjZTIxNWFiM zE4YjY1NGQ0NjYEaW50bAN1cwRzZWMDaW5fbmV3cwRzbGsDbnd zLXRpdGxlBHRlc3QDNzAx/SIG=12npotppv/EXP=1284154671/**http%3A//news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100909/ap_on_bi_ge/us_maple_syrup_flap

[red maples]

yep thats the one I just posted funny thing though I just went to the store for a few things and the log cabin natural syrup was not on the shelf???? hmmmmm???

[TapME]

Maybe all of the pure maple syrup that we sell should read and it was stated here " made from the sap of maple trees 100% all natural and pure maple syrup". They can't get out and do that even with there new botling and/or packaging. We just have to set the bar where they can't go.

[Dennis H.]

They can say that it is made with sap from maple trees, well just the 4% that is in it!!

[Thad Blaisdell]

Maybe all of the pure maple syrup that we sell should read and it was stated here " made from the sap of maple trees 100% all natural and pure maple syrup". They can't get out and do that even with there new botling and/or packaging. We just have to set the bar where they can't go.

The real problem is the similar bottle. You know that consumers are lazy. They will grab and go only looking at the price not what they are buying. Their brain will tell them that it is the same thing.

[TapME]

the bottle is an issue but as with any industry if you sit back and do nothing than you just conceed that part of the bussiness away. Maybe it's time to do something different on our end "THE REAL MAPLE SYRUP" on the bottle is what comes to mind right off. The other thing that may be an issue and I have not heard it here is how much of a price increase was there with the new location and bottle form the old look. They don't change things in bussiness without an increase of some kind. Let me ask this question, when was the lat time that pure maple syrup bottles were given an overhaul? Be proud and stand tall and sell the 100% pure from maple sap maple syrup.
Thad, can't help you on the lasy costumer, they are everywhere in every part of the world.
I hope that the pattent on the bottle holds, but more than likey it came from over sees and is copy. I would test the bottle if that's the case and find the lead in it.

[Dennis H.]

The whole is just wrong. I mean they knew exactly what they were doing when they designed the entire product. Then on top of that they are now paying the stores for better placement next to the real "MAPLE SYRUP".
So we actually have a problem with the stores also. They are selling out to the "FAKE" syrup producers to get that little bit of extra $$ in their pocket. We should be going after them also to let them know that we won't stand for it.

My personal opinon about wording on products is that it is just hogwash. Any person can word it to make it sound like their product is better. Remember "Where's the Beef" They say it is 100% beef, well what beef is in there and people may end up saying the same of our product if we start throwing "100% real Maple Syrup" Don't get me wrong I think we need something like that but it needs to be done in a way that they will be no confusion about the contents of the jug contains only maple syrup made from sap from maple trees. There still will be those that $$ talks and will only buy the Fake stuff because it is cheaper.

Does Hillside Plastic's have any ground to stand on with patents if the jugs are made over seas? I don't know all the laws with patents. I think this would be the best way to stop this whole thing is buy MAKING them change the container.

[red maples]

I like the classsic bottle/jug myself. Well in anycase I think whole thing will bring publicity to the maple syrup industry. BUT I hope it is done tastefully though I personally don't want any negative aspects to come out of it for the maple industry and I am sure no one else does either. One problem that I see is, and I was about to touch on it and I think it was Dr. Tim said something too. they are a big comapny with money to spend on legal fees. I am sure they have spent a bit of money on there advertising and marketing this product. I hope they withdrawl the jugs and go another route. but their "all natural syrup" is quite cheap retail around $4 for that container Quart size I think. Vermont country store catalog...$29.95 for a quart jug Vermont gr A med. + $9 shipping so almost $40 for a quart of syrup...holy cow!!!! No offense to any maple producer out there, and we are all aware of convient, supermarket and tourist trap mark-ups, but that is one thing that hurts us and an industry. Some people see maple syrup and just right off turn there nose because it is so expensive. I'm not saying give it away and my prices are competative for my area, but thats crazy.

As for a remake of our current jugs (I would like a new slick flip top) but I think there are a number of ways Advertise and keep it cost effective and that is the way to go I personally don't want to re-invent the wheel.

The NH maple Assc. put in alot more money into advertising this year and did a 30 sec commercial for maple weekend. Vermont does alot for the promotion of maple I mean its one of the first things you think of about vermont its their thing!!! There is alot of free advertising that most maple producers don't take advantage of. I do have a website...needs work but I do it for fun. And I advertise on facebook ...thats free. I have already sent syrup to some people on there(mostly friends but still sales). my website I think cost $70 a year that works out to less than .20 cents a day. and I have had almost 2000 hits since I started back in march I think it was. anyway there are alot of options for marketing on a shoe string. I also reciently sign up to be in the rest-stop flyer for the Nh assc. as well $25 and 9000 copies made can't beat it.

If your not a memeber of your state Maple association. You Should be because they do so much.

Enough rambling for me!!! sorry I got a bit long winded!!!

[802maple]

I think the biggest thing we can do is worry about our own house. I have found over the years is that positive promotion of your own product is much more effective then negative promotion of the competition. All of this complaining of their product only gives the customer the feeling that you have something to worry about from their so called fake syrup. Like I said before, if we go down that road of regulating their containers, they could turn that right around on us because of the fact that we use containers that are very similar to theirs and stop the use of those containers. Remember these guys are not just "fake syrup" producers they make many other products that use glass or plastic that we may also be using.

Now this is really probably going to upset some of you, but if your syrup will risk the chance of not being purchased again because someone bought a similar container of corn syrup and they decided they liked it better. I will say that you have a bigger problem then their container.

[red maples]

yep!!! a much bigger problem!!! :rolleyes:

[TapME]

802; I'm with you stand tall and beleive in your own product by talking the high road. I do that every day. If they question the price I explane the work that goes into making the product, that helps most of the time.
Talking about containers is one thing but here's another. What is the average age of your costomers? All of mine are or should I say my generation or one younger than me. This raises a question. Is there marketing done to the younger generation? How will they know what real maple syrup is.

[OGDENS SUGAR BUSH]

we need to forget the the word natural and think PURE MAPLE SYRUP, and advertise it

[Thad Blaisdell]

Maybe we should buy a bunch of corn syrup and mix it with our maple.... make ours 8% and advertise that we are twice as good as the other brands...LMAO

[red maples]

absolutly we need to believe in our product. all I am saying about the price is the crazy mark-ups thats all. I was worried mine was a little high...but everyone I sell to said they like the price. I have a pretty good array of customers most of them seem to be in the 30-45 range I guess.

I do agree with Dennis on the wording....its all hog wash. I personally don't think we have much to worry about. All of my customers are return customers so far. So I guess I am doing something right!!!! And once you go Pure maple I am sorry but if you go back to corn syrup something is wrong!!!

[RockFarm]

I agree with Ogdens Sugar Bush. Just label it PURE MAPLE SYRUP. It's short, sweet ;) and simple, and it's something that the sellers of the fake stuff can't say. The fake maple sellers might be able to fool people once, but anyone who values the difference in taste won't be fooled again.
Just my opinion.

[wdchuck]

All good points here people! I've never really seen the fake stuff as MY competition anyway- my market knows the difference and is willing to pay for it. My problem is with the fake being put into a container, that sure as hell looks like the ones that have traditionnally been used for the real thing. My stores have been great on this issue- I dont even think they're planning to carry that particular product. They have enough shelf space already dedicated to the fake stuff, and they appreciate my local product being available on their shelves. And true, this packaging is not illegal, but it sure as hell looks to me like they're pushing into a grey area to get a litlle extra market share at the expense of real maple.

[red maples]

SO I purchased 1 of these log cabin all natural.

Container size is 1 pt 6oz or 22 fl oz. or 650ml
Price $5.49
ingredients: Syrup(brown rice, sugar, maple[4%]),water, Natural flavor, xanthan gum(natural thickener) caramel color, Citric acid.

taste/ flavor: .....absolutely terrible!!! If anyone buys this stuff and actually likes it, then they have the pallet of a mule!!!! I have had alot of the fake stuff and this stuff is by far the worst.

where it was on the shelf: right next to real stuff qts of McClures syrup I think for $23

I don't think there is anything to worry about with product. 1 thing in my favor the seal was not on properly. I was gonna take it back anyway!!!!;)

[C.Wilcox]

I was gonna take it back anyway!!!!;)

I don't currently sell my syrup so I really don't have a dog in this fight, but maybe when you take it back you could tell a small white lie and say that you thought it was the real stuff based on where it was on the shelf. ;)

[red maples]

you know I thought about saying that. but I was gonna ask them to consider to not carry this product for the various reasons.

1 thing on the label that I thought was a funny read "We use only the finest All Natural Ingredients in this Authentic syrup." OK what is so Authenic about rice cooked with sugar and water with a hint of maple....nothing!!!!

[wdchuck]

I think our the most productive thing we as producers of the real thing can do is to be vigilant for this product being placed on the shelves next to the real stuff, and then go directly to the store manager and ask that it be placed in an appropriate location- I've done it and it was received well........Also I ran into a buddy of mine yesterday, lets just say he's a high placed member of the media- and they are totally on board with us!

[jgrenier]

I read on the internet that Ben & Jerry's is removing the "All Natural" labbleing from there containers because of the use of corn syrup and other unnatural ingreadents. Is't this the same situation as this fake maple syrup.although I think that the simalar jug is the real problem. I would post the link but not sure how to do that. anyway you can find the artical on yahoo news.

[Homestead Maple]

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2010/09/28/ben-jerrys-drop-natural-labels/

Here is one news story on it.

[wdchuck]

Good point JGrenier! I guess it is the same issue...My first thought was that this Ben and Jerry's issue was payback for Senator Peter Welch' s call for an investigation into the Log Cabin syrup labeling.......****, that makes me sound like one of those conspiracy theory nutjobs, doesnt it?......But ya never know......

[Homestead Maple]

September 25, 2010
Maple producers see nothing sweet in look-alike jugs

By Jo-Anne MacKenzie jmackenzie@eagletribune.com The Eagle Tribune Sat Sep 25, 2010, 12:27 AM EDT

Consumers would have to be saps to mistake Log Cabin All Natural Syrup for the real thing, maple experts say.

But maple syrup producers in New Hampshire and Vermont are steamed about the new product, which is packaged in plastic jugs nearly indistinguishable from the ones used by maple syrup producers throughout New England.

The outrage boiled over in Vermont earlier this month when the state Department of Agriculture and U.S. Rep. Peter Welch complained to the Food and Drug Administration about the look-alike product.

The Green Mountain contingent claims while Log Cabin doesn't violate Vermont's maple law, they believe it does violate the FDA regulations regarding the use of the word "natural."

Probably not, said Richard Uncles, director of the division of regulatory services for the New Hampshire Department of Agriculture, Markets and Food.

"In the common or usual meaning of that term, the ingredients appear to fit that definition," Uncles said yesterday.

That doesn't mean Uncles isn't troubled by the striking similarities between Log Cabin's product the sweet stuff produced from pure maple sap.

"What I think all of us who work in the maple industry are troubled by is the marketing scheme that places the product in close proximity to real maple products," Uncles said. "In Shaw's in Concord this morning, it was right smack in the middle of the real maple syrup."

It was at the Londonderry Market Basket, too. But when consumers check the prices, they realize they're very different kinds of syrup.

"The most telling thing about this is it's $5.98 for 22 ounces of (Log Cabin) and the maple product next to it — 16 ounces in a plastic jug — is $15.98," Uncles said.

Londonderry resident Hank Peterson, a longtime syrup producer, got steamed up when asked about the Log Cabin product yesterday.

Speaking from the grounds of The Big E, Peterson acknowledged there's no violation of New Hampshire law, but he takes exception to the "all natural claim" — and to the packaging.

He said consumers could easily be confused and once they compared prices, go for the much cheaper Log Cabin product and its "all natural" label.

"I think what they're trying to do is make a buck," Peterson said.

Maple syrup is big business in New England, more so in Vermont than in New Hampshire, but still important to the Granite State.

Vermont led all states in maple syrup production this year, making 890,000 gallons. New Hampshire ranked fifth this year with 87,000 gallons. But it's still important in the state's agricultural production.

SDLqIt's about $3 million or $4 million in farm gate value, a relatively small part of the state's agriculture production," Uncles said. "But it's tied to northern New England culture, it's tied to foliage in tourists' and consumers' minds. It's a key part of the agrarian tradition in New Hampshire, Vermont and Maine."

That's a tradition the New Hampshire Maple Producers Association wants to protect. In a strongly worded press release Thursday, the group said, "Log Cabin is now bottling its imitation maple syrup in beige plastic jugs like the ones maple producers have been using for decades."

Well, not quite. The Log Cabin product only claims to be "all natural syrup," not maple syrup. But it smells like maple and one of the ingredients is pure maple syrup, albeit just 4 percent.

"The Log Cabin Co. can imitate our jugs, but they can't come close to imitating the 100 percent pure maple syrup that we produce," said Peter Thomson, president of the New Hampshire Maple Producers Association.

Uncles said Log Cabin producers are coy and knew what they were doing when they started marketing their syrup in the look-alike jugs. But, he added, he doesn't think there's anything illegal about it.

And he also doesn't think the average consumer would be fooled.

"I think a person would have to pretty naive to believe this was a pure maple product," he said. "You can put grape Kool-Aid in a fancy wine bottle with a natural cork, but I don't think a reasonable person would mistake it for French burgundy."

• • •

[wdchuck]

And channel 3 WCAX just gave us some more up to date coverage
http://www.wcax.com/global/story.asp?s=13232974

[Homestead Maple]

http://www.dailyrecord.com/article/20100928/UPDATES01/100928085/1082/ENT/Mountain+Lakes

Vermont put the pressure on them, so they are changing.

[brookledge]

I looked at the ingredients on the new log cabin tonight at the store and noticed it says right on the label "No corn syrup" . So while Ben and Jerry's are removing the words "all natural" It seems that log cabin did their homework and it does not contain any ingedients that would make it un natural. I will never buy any even to taste it so unless someone else does I will never taste any
Keith