organic certification

[maplemaker]

Hello everyone I keep getting more and more people requesting organic maple syrup and I tell them pure maple syrup is organic thats why its labeled pure but some people still want it certified.I was wondering what the cost is and what rules do you have and how much more do you charge for a gallon?

[wglenmapler]

First all syrup is not organic--even Uncle Sam agrees. Think of all the "new" things introduced to the maple industry over the years that we found out weren't so great-case in point-furmaldehide. It gets alot more complicated than that too! There are even some new products today in use that wouldn't fly--even defoamers.

The best way to learn about certification is to go to one of the certifying agencies websites and look or ask for an application packet.

We use Nofa-NY currently.

The biggest advantage I see is an actual inspection of your sugarhouse.

As to prices-not much different on the retail end in the maple belt. Get away from the maple belt and some get much more. What are you charging for a gallon?

[DrTimPerkins]

Hello everyone I keep getting more and more people requesting organic maple syrup and I tell them pure maple syrup is organic thats why its labeled pure but some people still want it certified.I was wondering what the cost is and what rules do you have and how much more do you charge for a gallon?

Pure does not equal organic. The procedures to be followed, regulations, and certification costs (and experience in maple) vary depending upon who the registered certifying agency is. In some cases, part (sometime a substantial part) of the cost is reimbursed by state ag agencies. To the consumer, "certified" organic conveys a sense that a product is being made in an environmentally sound and sustainable manner, is made with good management practices (everything from forest management to canning the syrup), and no or low use of synthetic substances.

While much of the maple syrup that is made "could" be easily certified organic, it is not actually organic unless it is certified by a registered agency. They look not only at the chemicals you do/don't use, but also at the production practices to ensure sustainability, and require that you keep records of all your production. As mentioned, you need to use certified organic oil defoamers. The other thing you need (at least for NOFA) is a forest management plan.

Whether you decide to go organic depends largely upon your market, whether the benefits outweigh the costs, and to some degree, your philosophy. It doesn't mean you've got to become a long-haired granola-crunching hippie, but you do need to understand and respect that some people want an assurance that the products they consume are being made in a certain way, and you have to believe that there is nothing at all wrong with that. Give the consumer what they want.

I know some people argue that maple syrup is pure, and thus is by nature organic. Think that all you want, but to be certified organic (a legal term), you have to follow the definitions and regulations of the certifying agency.

We switched to certified organic production a few years ago at UVM PMRC. For very little change in our production practices (mostly organic oil and some specific production records), the extra bonus is very nice. The certifying folks have been very nice, and the education has been a give-and-take thing in both directions.

[lew]

NOFA NY (our certifying agent) has an office on Front St. in Binghamton. At the Cornell Cooperative Extension Building. Talk to them. We found they were by far the cheapest organization to deal with. Price depends on gross sales of certified product. As far as how much more you can get for your syrup, like wglenmapler said, not much in the syrup belt. A few dollars more per gallon, but then you run into "I can get it from your neighbor for $X and I really don't care about the organic certification so I'll just buy it from your neighbor cheaper, I just want good syrup". Bulk price of certified organic syrup is usually around $0.20 per pound more. Not quite $70 per barrel. My certification costs $600 per year. That means i would have to sell 9 barrels to break even, not worth it to me for the bulk market. However, if you have a particular retail or wholesale market that YOU control the price, then it is worth it. Right now you can still get 75% of your certification costs back from the government, up to a $750 rebate. I don't think this will last much longer due budget constraints. So when I figure if it is worth it financially to me to be certified or not I count on NOT getting a rebate. If I do, then I have a couple of extra bucks.

Selling certified organic syrup can be a tricky thing. Many people see the "Organic" label and automatically think that it is going to cost an arm and a leg. they won't even stop to see what the price is because they "already know it's high". It's a fine line to walk and you need to know your market. I have both organic markets and non-organic. All of my syrup is certified organic in the barrel so that I can market it either way. I love making syrup, but in the end I need to sell the syrup to make the money so that i can make more syrup, to sell more syrup, etc.

In the end, you need to sell a substantial amount of syrup to make it financially worth while to be certified. then you have to take into consideration the headaches of the extra paper work, the inspections, the added labeling (even the proper placement of labeling), the limitations of the equipment you can use, etc.

Don't get me wrong, certification is worth it for certain situations. But if you can already sell your crop (and possibly more) without certification, why bother with the headache. If you think that you can substantially increase your sales with a certification or create a new market, then go for it.

I don't mean to paint a picture of doom and gloom. For me it works. Like any other business decision, you need to know your market before you make the expenditure in time and money. I live only 20 minutes from you. If you want to talk about it let me know. My fingers are getting cramped and your probably tired of reading this long winded message.

[TF Maple]

As far as how much more you can get for your syrup, like wglenmapler said, not much in the syrup belt. A few dollars more per gallon, but then you run into "I can get it from your neighbor for $X and I really don't care about the organic certification so I'll just buy it from your neighbor cheaper, I just want good syrup".

Really great information from Lew. As far as the problem quoted above, you can just use a regular label on some of the bottles as if it isn't certified organic, and put a lower price on it so you don't loose the business. They won't know it is all the same syrup if you don't tell them.

I'm not certified organic but I try to charge $13 a quart for syrup, but if someone says I can buy it for $12 (my sister-in-law:mad: who uses a lot of syrup for cooking) I sell it for $12. Anyone who doesn't shop around pays $13.

[DaveB]

While much of the maple syrup that is made "could" be easily certified organic, it is not actually organic unless it is certified by a registered agency. They look not only at the chemicals you do/don't use, but also at the production practices to ensure sustainability, and require that you keep records of all your production. As mentioned, you need to use certified organic oil defoamers. The other thing you need (at least for NOFA) is a forest management plan.

This sounds like semantics to me. It either is organic or not organic. Certification just ensures that it is. I follow organic practices and if a consumer asks me, I will tell them that. I will also tell them that maple syrup is an organic product by its nature but that we are not certified organic.

Let me ask this. What would prevent the a group from becoming a certifier of organic high fructose corn syrup and corn producers from becoming certified organic high fructose corn syrup producers? After all, it is derived (just as maple syrup is a derivative product of maple sap) from a natural product that can be grown in sustainable means. Of course, they would have to produce the HFCS in an organic way, but again, what would prevent them from doing that? Then we could have cheap, certified organic, Vermont Maid!

Dave

[DrTimPerkins]

This sounds like semantics to me. It either is organic or not organic. Certification just ensures that it is. I follow organic practices and if a consumer asks me, I will tell them that. I will also tell them that maple syrup is an organic product by its nature but that we are not certified organic.

Dave....you're shooting the messenger here. Don't all laws and regulations eventually boil down to semantics? There are lots of different definitions of "organic" (just look in the dictionary). The purpose of the USDA organic food standard is to provide a commonly accepted definition for producers (and certifying agencies) to adhere to. You can't just make up your own definition, or use another definition that you happen to like better.

The definition of pertinance to this discussion is that of what can be certifield "organic" and thus marketed as "organic" in the food marketplace. Basically you can produce syrup in the same exact way, and if you've been certified as organic, you can sell it as organic. If however, you do happen to produce it in an organic fashion, but are NOT certified, you cannot make claims that your syrup is organic...whether you made it using organic practices or not. Conversely though, if it is organic certified, you can sell it as either regular or organic syrup.

It's similar to getting your car inspected. If you get stopped by a cop for not having an inspection sticker, you won't get far arguing that your car is in good shape and theoretically "could be" inspected if you wanted to and paid the fee. The cop will laugh (if you're lucky) and you'll end up paying the citation. Somebody other than you has to certify that the car meets the criteria to be road worthy by meeting a set of certain agreed upon standards.

In your theoretical example, assuming that the corn were made organically, it would probably be possible to make organic HFCS. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. Probably wouldn't be terribly marketable, and would cost a good deal more, but for altogether different reasons.

[wglenmapler]

I'm not trying to start any fires, but I believe we need to make some things clear.

Dave,

I'm sure you are actually following the same practices as an organic sugarbush-or at least the ones you know minus the paperwork/trail.

There are stiff penalties for labelling/calling your product organic when it is not certified. If you sell more than 5,000 gross you are required to be certified in order to call product organic--there is allowance currently for "all-natural" and what is termed locally "farmers pledge".

Here's a couple links to get you started as to knowing the regs-we should all be careful what we say about "organic" in print on the jug, in word, or even on our websites. You never know who your customer is!

http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/getfile?dDocName=STELDEV3004446

How Do I Know that a Product is Really “Organic”
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View
These rules are very detailed and carry a stiff fine -- $10000 – for ... penalty for calling a product “organic” that does not meet USDA's requirements, ...
fycs.ifas.ufl.edu/newsletters/rnycu07/rnycuswisher.pdf -

[DrTimPerkins]

There are stiff penalties for labelling/calling your product organic when it is not certified.

Excellent point. Basically the same thing as that cop giving you a traffic ticket because you self-certified your car's inspection sticker...but it'll hurt a far bit more. That ag inspector would be very interested in listening to your explanation, but would likely be less amused than the cop.

[DaveB]

Let me try to be clear again....I have NEVER called my maple syrup organic so let's put that to rest. As far as I can tell (and based on advice from my attorney) there is nothing wrong with saying that "we are not certified organic, but we try to follow organic practices". If a customer really wants a certified product, I work with a producer who does have one, however, it's very rare that someone does. Most people just ask about formaldehyde. They seem to think that if you are not certified organic that you use formaldehyde.

I'll agree that I was unaware that you cannot use the generic term "organic" now because it has a legal definition and I will not use that term now. However, a car inspection is way different from maple syrup. It's not rocket science.

Unless someone has figured out a different way of making it, maple syrup is concentrated maple sugar from maple sap. All you are doing is removing excess water from the sap. You can do that via an RO process or heating it. You either collect it in a tube or a bucket but some how you need to collect it. There's not much you can do to make non-organic (in the generic sense of the word).

Cars are way more complicated and can rust and break down and be unsafe which is the reason for safety inspections in some states. BTW, My state doesn't have them.

And yes, I keep excellent records and am probably more "organic" (in the generic sense) than many.

To get back to the original post, if you are selling less than $5K, you can call it organic. If not, you can pay the money/feed the coffer to get that little green circle. Depending on your sales, maybe you could work with a certified organic producer to fulfill your customers needs, either directly from him or through you if you keep the products separate and have the paperwork for traceability.

Dave

[wglenmapler]

"Balsam Woods Farm is nestled in a quiet corner of the hills of New England. Here, we make Real Maple Syrup on land that has been in the same family for generations. Our quality syrup is Mother Natures sweet gift that we share with you! Now with three generations on hand!
Here you can learn all about our award winning treat: real maple syrup. You can even shop our online store and purchase the finest maple syrup available.

Real Maple Syrup is a natural, organic product. As a sweetener, real maple syrup provides three times the sweetening power of cane sugar, but with it only 40 calories per tablespoon! "

source-www.realmaplesyrup.com

[maplemaker]

Thanks lew and everyone for the info.We are adding on a big bush this summer and all winter lol! We do have a big market for organic and i was just wondering what was involved.We will be heading to Front st to get some more info next week

[red maples]

geez guys calm down...I had that question come up last year if my syrup was organic and of course I said no. I explained the certification process to the best of my knowledge (which isn't very good) I did say that there are no other additives I only use canola oil as a defoamer and explained that process. But I did jokingly add in my trees are wild, free range, and cage free and I don't use any unnatural growth hormons or antibiotics. and they did have a good laugh at that. and bought 2 quarts and some candy enjoyed a little hot chocolate(which wasn't organic either). and on they went!!!

I think If your following the rules basically using proper containers to store your sap/syrup lead free pans, buckets etc. bottling and storage correctly, and doing your very best to keep your operation clean as possible, then your pretty close to organic, but until you can get the legal certification you can't call yourself organic.

[DrTimPerkins]

I think If your following the rules basically using proper containers to store your sap/syrup lead free pans, buckets etc. bottling and storage correctly, and doing your very best to keep your operation clean as possible, then your pretty close to organic, but until you can get the legal certification you can't call yourself organic.

That's a good basic summary. Where maple syrup is commonly made, a good share of people understand that it is a natural and pure product, and probably meets the organic standards. It is when you get further away that more people begin to actually look for the certified organic label, because they don't understand the process as well.

Interestingly, most of the bulk producers making organic maple syrup can't meet the 100% organic standard because they typically use pressure filter presses. It can still be certified organic, but not use the 100% organic label. This is because there is no source for certified organic DE (diatomaceous earth).

[DaveB]

That's a good basic summary. Where maple syrup is commonly made, a good share of people understand that it is a natural and pure product, and probably meets the organic standards. It is when you get further away that more people begin to actually look for the certified organic label, because they don't understand the process as well.

Interestingly, most of the bulk producers making organic maple syrup can't meet the 100% organic standard because they typically use pressure filter presses. It can still be certified organic, but not use the 100% organic label. This is because there is no source for certified organic DE (diatomaceous earth).

Really good points Dr Perkins. I've found that most of the questions that I get are from people that are further away. But I still get questions from the 'locals' at farmers markets but they know the right questions to ask!

Dave

[BryanEx]

Interestingly, most of the bulk producers making organic maple syrup can't meet the 100% organic standard because they typically use pressure filter presses.
Cool! Gravity filters rule. :D This is really interesting info Dr. Perkins given my business model. I never realized that a filter press ruled out 100% organic. I always thought it had to do with cleaners, defoamers, metals, and forest management.

[DrTimPerkins]

Cool! Gravity filters rule. :D

They do until you start to pack in glass. :)

Bulk producers just don't have a choice though....in order to have the process go fast enough, they pretty much have to use a filter press.

[DaveB]

I was just watching a Dirty Job episode where Mike went to a place that makes shampoo out of powderized rock. They are USDA certified organic. Here's a link to the company:

http://www.terressentials.com/

Can something like that powder be used instead of DE? Is there an alternative to DE in a filter press? I thought the concept was that the DE is fine enough to capture particulate matter but not pass through the filter paper so couldn't something else fill in for that?

Dave

[802maple]

They do until you start to pack in glass. :)

Bulk producers just don't have a choice though....in order to have the process go fast enough, they pretty much have to use a filter press.

Actually if you use 2 felts and a 3-4 prefilters in a flat filter tank it will come out just as good as a filter press, just not as fast. I packed in glass for years and never had any sediment.

[DrTimPerkins]

Actually if you use 2 felts and a 3-4 prefilters in a flat filter tank it will come out just as good as a filter press, just not as fast. I packed in glass for years and never had any sediment.

I agree that is is certainly possible to filter well without a filter press, but some producers just don't go to this trouble, and try to filter with one well-used (meaning worn-out) felt and, if you're lucky, 1 prefilter, resulting in niter in their syrup. I can't begin to tell you how many calls and emails we've gotten that basically say, "I've been making maple syrup for 20 years and never had a niter problem, and suddenly I'm finding niter in my syrup." Very often it's because they just started packing in glass. We tell them the correct way to do it (the way you describe), and frequently the response is "that's too much work" or "no, that's not it, must be something else."

And before I get slammed.....yes, there are plenty of good producers out there who are doing it the right way and have great results.

[802maple]

I know if I was a small producer I wouldn't have a filter press due to the to much work aspect. Back in the day I made up to 900 gallons a season and it was all filtered thru flat filters of whch i bottled nearly 1/4 of it in glass and never had any sediment. If you do flat filters the right way it isn't hard to get 50 to 60 gallons a day thru them without changing. Large producers certainly don't have much of a choice.

[red maples]

yeah the small amount that I make I filter twice and have no problem with sediment in glass. but yeah if I were a big producer I wouldn't wanna play with little filters either.

[BryanEx]

Interestingly, most of the bulk producers making organic maple syrup can't meet the 100% organic standard because they typically use pressure filter presses. It can still be certified organic, but not use the 100% organic label. This is because there is no source for certified organic DE (diatomaceous earth).

Dr. Tim... I wanted to revisit your statement above after reviewing so many maple web sites in the past few weeks as I have found many bulk producers now marketing 100% organic maple syrup. Examples include;

http://www.coombsfamilyfarms.com
http://canadianorganicmaple.com

The second web site I've posted is for a producer with 90,000 taps.

Is there now a DE source that's been certified organic or do these producers use an alternate filtering process?

- Bryan

[Brent]

There are pressurized high flow filters systems around that do not use DE.

By pure luck, I found one. This uses standard industial #1 size filters bags that you can get from Grainger or McMaster-Carr. The first year I had it I tried a few 1 micron absolute filters. The clearest syrup I've ever made. There are food grade filters for them. It has a standard Oberdorfer pump and vari-speed drive. I think it should pass an organic standard.

[BryanEx]

What company makes those filters Brent?

[DrTimPerkins]

Dr. Tim... I wanted to revisit your statement above after reviewing so many maple web sites in the past few weeks as I have found many bulk producers now marketing 100% organic maple syrup. Examples include;

Certification standards can vary (somewhat) by the certifying agency (since there are no organic standards for maple at the U.S. federal level). All those I am familiar with don't allow the use of "100% organic" if DE is used (with or without a pressure filter), but it could be possible that some might. Only way to tell for sure would be to request a copy of their organic certification documents and ask them about the use of DE.

[BryanEx]

Only way to tell for sure would be to request a copy of their organic certification documents and ask them about the use of DE.

I've actually done just that today. I didn't ask for their documentation but did ask about DE and the 100% organic labeling. If and when I get some replies I will update this thread with the info.

[Brent]

Bryan

they're made by Eco Chem Int. in Quebec. They have a full line of super-purification systems used in foods, make-up and chemical manufacturing products. I think this particular filter is the smallest product they offer.

http://www.ecochem.ca/products/mf-uf.htm

The rig I have is at the very bottom of this page.

There is valving on the rear so you can use this as a transfer pump by-passing the filter vessel.
It's built like a brick outhouse. I would guess 125 - 150 lbs.
When we used 5 micron filters we could go several days without changing the filter. They cost about $ 6 - 8 each.
We use paper prefilters off the evaporator, reheat in a finish pan to adjust density, run through this filter press into a water jacket canner. Love it compared to the waffle plate type press we have before this. I have no idea what they cost new. This one cost me $2000. Cdn used.

[BryanEx]

I am still researching this and it's interesting to see the fine lines set up between organic classifications. I found the following on Wikipedia;

In the US, federal organic legislation defines three levels of organics. Products made entirely with certified organic ingredients and methods can be labeled "100% organic". Products with at least 95% organic ingredients can use the word "organic". Both of these categories may also display the USDA organic seal. A third category, containing a minimum of 70% organic ingredients, can be labeled "made with organic ingredients".

On the Canadian General Standards Board web site I found the following quote in the organics regulations;

Simple filtration through cloth or paper, through a filter press or through food grade diatomaceous earth, silica power, or clay dust with a filter press to remove solids is permitted.

There was no mention of a difference between 100% organic and organic that i could find and I'm starting to think this is a difference between Canada and US certification even though they are reciprocal for cross border trade.

The second thing I wonder about is I have yet to read a post on Maple Trader that states someone is using silica or clay dust in their filter press. Anyone using either of these and if so, why?

- Bryan

[Mark]

I was thinking about growing some organic vegetables and am trying to find some food grade dirt to grow them in.

[Squaredeal]

We are certified organic, and last year found some OMRI listed organic DE. Unbelievably, I was told even if we used it instead of the run of the mill DE, we could not be considered 100% organic -I don't remember the exact reason. There are lots of things that I don't agree with with regards to requirements and the process to become organic, but the wonderful thing is that it is a choice and we don't have to do it. In the end it's worth it for us as we don't get to meet many of the people that buy our syrup and the organic label seems to make them feel better. It's all about the market and marketing.
There are many other differences -such as pipeline cleaning chemicals and silvicultural standards that differentiate USDA organic maple from Canadian organic maple.

[BryanEx]

If you sell more than 5,000 gross you are required to be certified in order to call product organic
A small producer who sells $4,999 or less a year gross can legally call their product organic without any type of certification? That's very roughly 100 gallons a year of finished syrup. I'll have to check Canadian regs to see if that's the case here as well.

[Brian Ryther]

Looking through the nyofa ny organic certification rules and found this one rule interesting
"Vacuum pumps are permitted to be used, with monitoring of the pressure levels at the tap. Producers should maintain as low a pressure as possible. Freshening of tap holes with use of same size drill is permitted."
Are they mis using the term pressure? Do they mean to say vacuum? If not then are they promoting producers to use vacuum for the transporting of sap and not for increasing sap yeild. Plus they allow for aditional wounding of the tree by reaming the holes.

[DrTimPerkins]

Looking through the nyofa ny organic certification rules and found this one rule interesting
"Vacuum pumps are permitted to be used, with monitoring of the pressure levels at the tap. Producers should maintain as low a pressure as possible. Freshening of tap holes with use of same size drill is permitted."

As before, different certifying agencies have different standards. They have varying levels of familiarity with maple. Sounds like this one needs some updating. If they're saying maintain the pressure (vacuum) as low as possible...that would mean a gravity system to me (although that is not real clear and I could just be interpreting it wrong). If so, this comes from the (incorrect) notion that vacuum is harmful to trees and is a hold-over from the interpretation of research that was done DECADES ago. Note that I didn't say the research was wrong....just how people interpreted it. Similarly, "freshening" of tapholes is no longer a recommended practice.

[Mark]

I try to keep as low a pressure as possible.

[DrTimPerkins]

I try to keep as low a pressure as possible.

Hard to tell exactly what they mean by that statement -- whether they mean to use vacuum, but not too "high" a vacuum level, or to use vacuum, but pull as low a "pressure" as you can. I interpreted it that they meant the latter, which is what some of the older recommendations say.

In general use though, "pressure" refers to a condition above atmospheric and "vacuum" refers to a (partial) pressure below atmospheric. In reality though, it is all a measure of pressure. Thus a "low pressure" could mean a "high vacuum."

[DrTimPerkins]

We are certified organic, and last year found some OMRI listed organic DE. Unbelievably, I was told even if we used it instead of the run of the mill DE, we could not be considered 100% organic -I don't remember the exact reason.

Some forms of DE are certified for organic uses in PEST CONTROL. Just because it is organic for one use doesn't mean it will be allowed in all types of organic production. I don't know of any DE that would allow the use of the 100% organic nomenclature and still be acceptable as a filter aid (mostly due to introduction of off-flavor issues), although as I said earlier...there are several certifying entities and they all make up their own rules to some extent, given that there is not unifying Federal organic standards for maple syrup.

[Brian Ryther]

The NOFA - NY allows DE for organic. It also allows any defomer that is not synthetic. It states "Non-synthetic defoaming agents, including certified organic milk and certified organic vegetable oils should be used. " Yes MILK. And this the 2011publication https://www.nofany.org/sites/default/files/certforms/generalforms/xx2011guidencemanual.pdf
Certified organic Maple should be outlawed until there is a unified up to date federal standard.

[U.S.M.C.Cpl]

I saw Organic Firewood for sale in my local shopper, is this also a requirment to make organic Maple Syrup??? I know its a stupid question but so is Organic Firewood!!!

[DrTimPerkins]

Certified organic Maple should be outlawed until there is a unified up to date federal standard.

That is not likely to happen anytime soon. Organic maple production is too small for federal standards to be devised and promulgated.....in other words....it is too costly for the expected return.....even for the Federal Government.

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

I saw Organic Firewood for sale in my local shopper, is this also a requirment to make organic Maple Syrup??? I know its a stupid question but so is Organic Firewood!!!

but is it certified organic, you can call the state health and turn him in:lol::lol::lol::lol:

[Brian Ryther]

That is not likely to happen anytime soon. Organic maple production is too small for federal standards to be devised and promulgated.....in other words....it is too costly for the expected return.....even for the Federal Government.

Then maybe county / state / province / education faculities should stand up and and take the lead in discrediting this odvious mis guided nomenclature for the sake of gouging the customer. What is the only reason a maple producer choses to be Organic, to command a higher price. Does it cost more to produce organic maple products? Not really. Is organic maple produced any differently then non "certified" organic maple? I should hope not. It appears the usda refunds 75% of the certification costs. The only good thing I see from organic maple is having a system in place to make shure you are not over taping, and not adding anything to make the final product not "synthetic." So the bottom line to me seams that organic producers are taking advantage of there customers. So my next question is how do we discredit the current system that is in place?

[CBOYER]

Just read that in 2010, 20% of syrup produced in Qc, is certified Organic, about 22,136,913 pounds. Right now Canada Federal is supposed to make a standard bottom rules for all provinces, and Quebec have the most restrictive one.

[BryanEx]

So my next question is how do we discredit the current system that is in place?

I can't say as I believe discrediting organic certification would be in any way helpful to maple producers. We (as in our producer associations) should be working toward fixing, updating, or simply educating the certification process. As a very small producer I will never invest the time and effort it takes to be certified but I do try to follow their guidelines as much as possible along with the "best practices" published by my Producers Association and Provincial Government. Another option is to join a grass roots type organization like Certified Naturally Grown (http://www.naturallygrown.org/) which is a far more reasonable way of showing your customers you produce both sustainable and healthy maple products.

- Bryan

[Revi]

Around here the big guys are organic. They have markets all over the country, and people like to buy organic products. Maple production is one of the few things that is organic anyway. The customer wants to buy something that has no chemicals in it. They want to see that organic label and know that there aren't any in it. People who buy Maine Maple Products or Strawberry Hill Farms are getting the best product, so why not call it organic? I think it helps us all out. We don't see any need to organic certify our little operation, but we are a Tree Farm. Tree Farm is an example of certification that shows we are managing our woods in a sustainable way. We can sell our wood to places that require a certification. I think organic is the same kind of thing. For people who don't "know their farmer" it says that the product is produced in a way that includes no chemicals.

[Brian Ryther]

I can't say as I believe discrediting organic certification would be in any way helpful to maple producers. We (as in our producer associations) should be working toward fixing, updating, or simply educating the certification process. As a very small producer I will never invest the time and effort it takes to be certified but I do try to follow their guidelines as much as possible along with the "best practices" published by my Producers Association and Provincial Government. Another option is to join a grass roots type organization like Certified Naturally Grown (http://www.naturallygrown.org/) which is a far more reasonable way of showing your customers you produce both sustainable and healthy maple products.

- Bryan

You are right Bryan. To activly discredit them would be just as harmfull as there mis guided methods. Thanks for the CNG link. I applied this morning.

[BryanEx]

You are right Bryan. To activly discredit them would be just as harmfull as there mis guided methods. Thanks for the CNG link. I applied this morning.

I was just certified by CNG this season for my maple production which cost $50 and several hours of time. I feel it's a viable option for small to medium sized producers but just like the organic certification they too need to improve their maple qualifications. Their information is current with regards to tap size and count per tree but their maple inspection is missing many areas that should be an important consideration (like lead solder for example). My hopes are to work with Caroline and Alice to improve the maple inspection form with less confusion over the produce section.

- Bryan

[Jim Brown]

We also joined the CNG program this year!

Jim

[doocat]

We joined the CNG roles last year. We are "organic" without all the red tape. We follow all the guidelines just don't want to put out the money for the "certification."

Craig

[BryanEx]

...there are several certifying entities and they all make up their own rules to some extent, given that there is not unifying Federal organic standards for maple syrup.

I think that is most likely the largest issue to deal with in order to give "organic" a true meaning. To me personally organic implies all-natural, environmentally friendly, and sustainable yet many requirements I've seen seem to go against that. Chickens can not be let outdoors for organic certification yet most consumers that pay for better quality food want free range birds. Once organic certificate is clearly defined federally with interpretations or additions based on State or Province (just like our current maple grading is) then we will have a certification with true meaning.

[motowbrowne]

Wait a minute, which certification agency requires that organic chickens not be let outside. Everything that I can find requires organic poultry producers to allow chickens access to the outdoors. I know that this requirement is often circumvented by exploiting loopholes, but I haven't seen anything that outright bars producers from offering outdoor access. I certainly think that it is odd that every certification agency does things differently, at least beyond ensuring that the basic usda standards are met. When looking at new products I often check which certification agency is responsible for certifying to help make a decision. I think in some cases, with some agencies, there is no point in paying extra for the word "organic" since it doesn't really mean anything (Horizon Milk for example, which is certified by the USDA), but with some agencies, producers are actually held to organic standards beyond just what is mandated by the USDA and are more aligned with what I want to support in agriculture. Obviously buying from someone you know is the best option, organic or not, certified or not, but that is not always an option, and in that case, being familiar with the standards that producers are upholding is a good step.

[BryanEx]

Wait a minute, which certification agency requires that organic chickens not be let outside. Everything that I can find requires organic poultry producers to allow chickens access to the outdoors.

That is correct and my mistake. I misinterpreted an article that was intended to be misinterpreted. It seems in the Province of Ontario quota poultry are not allowed outdoors but to cater to the organic poultry farmers the marketing board has proposed legislation to amend the organic requirement for outdoor time to include the phrase "where Provincial regulations allow" Essentially, the marketing board to trying to alter the organic certification to meet the needs of their members and their own ideas of what's best for the consumer.

[BryanEx]

A good article discussing the differences between certification organizations as it pertains to maple written by Tim Wilmot from the University of Vermont and published in Farming Magazine February 2010;

http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc/wilmot_organic.pdf

It seems the biggest issue is that the National Organic Program (NOP) simply states no banned substances and harvesting must be environmental friendly and sustainable... and that's as far as it's defined leaving it open to interpretation.

- Bryan

[Brian Ryther]

wow, just got around to reading the Canadian organic regs. The stand out questions for me were.... the non allowance of uv treatment of sap, microwaves are not alowed in the use of making confections, vacuum levels at the tap hole of +20" are not alowed. I do like the defoamer statment that does not allow anything that is considered a food allergens, eg soy, peanuts, sesame oil, but they did not touch on the milk issue. I also like the specific allowance of fermented sap as a cleaning agent. They do touch on the Sodium Hydroxide cleaning soap for ROs'. they said "the membrain flushing water shall be descarded in a manner that causes no harm to the environment." A little open for inturperation. (the solution to polution is dilution)

[Brent]

Brian

where did you get the Canadian regs from. We get a lot of folks asking if our syrup is Organic and I'd like to look into this.

[Brian Ryther]

Brent,
The all inclusive best maple reasource online
http://www.sugarbush.info/links/
Look for organic, then find the canadian link and start looking around there.

[BryanEx]

I noticed a few of those links were broken on the weekend so I'll have to do some updating. Canadian organic regs can be found in section 7.2 of this pdf file;

http://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/ongc-cgsb/internet/bio-org/documents/032-0310-2006-eng.pdf

- Bryan