RO-vs-Steamaway and darker syrup

[Brent]

Last year we got a real RO going and ran most of the season
at 8%. We have a bit of an unusual problem here in that we can't make our syrup dark enough for most of our customers.

So I'm looking into a new rig with a steam-away, thinking that subjecting the sap to more heat for a longer time will help darken it. Maybe just run the RO at 4% or not at all.

Any thoughts on this ???

[maplecrest]

let the sap set overnite then boil and you will make darker syrup. steamaways tend to make darker syrup. but alot of money if you have r/o

[Thad Blaisdell]

You could always RO less.... 6% and not put any more money out......

[Brent]

Maplecrest ... last year we made 8% from the RO and let is set overnight, and tried letting some raw 2% set overnight.

We ended up with ropy syrup. It was far too warm here so the sap may have got too warm in the overnight standing. So many things going on at once it's really hard to figure what caused what.

I'm not so much concerned about increasing throughput as getting the product our customers want. Without screwing around we can only make extra light and light. To think that a couple years back I almost bought a UV system to help keep the microbes down and keep the syrup light HA !

[Brent]

802

I've been reading some archives and see your connection to the IntensOfire. I'm looking into a 5 year old unit. Do you know where that generation injected the air. My own work last year suggested that, like others in evaps and woodstoves have found, the more air over the fire the better.

So how much air do you think went in over the fire on the Intensofire, and would there be any big obstacles to putting more air over the fire if I bought the 5 year old rig ??

[heus]

Brent,
Getting rid of the Phaneuf? Say it isnt so!!

[Brent]

Yeh I there's a chance it might happen. I did ask Patrick for a quote on an 8x3 but he won't talk to me. Still groping for a way to make darker syrup ... fast.

[3rdgen.maple]

Brent is there anyone around you that doesnt have an ro that you can compare your results to? And before you had an ro what grade syrup where you making? Im not an ro fan at all myself for personall reasons but I can see where it contributes to a lighter grade syrup. Who the heck wants to hold syrup anyways to downgrade it. I know I sure dont. I make very little light and mostly medium grade and dark on my Phanuef rig. I wonder if you could keep the sap in the pans longer by running deeper and see if that helps any. Might not drawoff as soon but you would drawoff more when you did.

[Brent]

There's no one close to us to compare to. The first year here we used the kitchen and turkey fryers. Got nothing but extra light. Thought we were in heaven. Then 2 years with a Half Pint ... same stuff. Now 2 years with the 2x6, one with a mickey mouse RO the made a bit of 4-5% at best and last year with a 160 GPH RO and we still can't get anything darker than light. Never made one pail of medium yet. And the folks that seek us out want medium and dark.
We should be so lucky !!!!!

[802maple]

The 5 year old is just like the first ones basically. They have 3 adjustable dampers and you can adjust it to have as little or as much air over the fire as you would like and likewise with the underfire air. You can shut the air off to the bottom air and put all the air over the fire if you like. Hope this helps

[Brent]

Thanks for the feedback ... but I've made a pretty significant error ... the rig in question is a Leader Inferno, not an IntensOfire. I think it's airflow is all under the grate.
So if I want the effect that you understand, over the fire with pressure and turbulence, I'll have to do that myself.

[3rdgen.maple]

Brent not to question your knowledge but I had a guy close to me a few years back say all he could do was make light syrup and asked me to stop by one day. What I found to be his problem was he had no idea how to use a grading system. Once I showed him how simple it was he started making darker syrup lol. Funny how things work sometimes, years ago all you could sell was light and couldnt make it. Now all they want is dark and you cant make that. You watch and see in a few years you will be trying to get light again. For the life of me though I cannot see how you never make light syrup all year long. Are you tapping all sugars or are they mixed?

[Brent]

3rd gen I sure hope he solution is something as simple as learning something I don't understand yet.

The bush is only about 20% sugars. The rest is a mix that I have not yet figured the ratios of red and silver.

Got one of the approved Canadian Standards kits (which I think was made in Vermont) We have a visit from the Province of Ontario Ministry of Food and Ag who bought a few bottles to take away and verify our lead safety, density and colour grading ... no problems ... except they could only test our light and extra light (fancy in your area).

I have visited some other sugarmakers a couple hours drive from here and tasted and even bought some of their darker stuff. I just shake my head in amazement at my luck to get nothing but weak tasting light stuff.

[3rdgen.maple]

That my fellow maple producer is one of the great things about this site. We are all learning new things. I was suprised you have a mixed bush and still getting light. You can always make sugar and cream lol more money in it anyways but more time too. Oh NY does not use the fancy term either just light. If you ever figure it out be sure to tell us your solution.

[brookledge]

Brent
The inferno arch does have some air over. The top of the rail over the door has nozzles that inject air. however it puts the majority under the wood
Keith

[Brent]

I think I'm going to do the same mods to this as I did with the Phaneuf rig. A pair of stainless tubes just under the pans, holes pointing down. This year I've got a Gast regenerative blower that will give me more than 4 times the pressure for better turbulence.

[johnallin]

Hey Brent.... Just saw that you were going to a new rig. If you're going to be looking at Leader - be sure and say hi to Fred for me. Better people are hard to find. Any way, good luck with your search. John Allin

[Brent]

The rig IS a Leader ... a few years old 30 x 8 with steamaway. I may be dropping by Leader when I go get the 'new to me' rig, and pick up a syrup pan hood for it.

There's a picture of the new one, in the owner's shack, on our web site. Looking forward to having enough time at the end of a day to filter and bottle instead of boiling every night till 2AM and starting to bottle in mid April.

[Flat47]

The bush is only about 20% sugars. The rest is a mix that I have not yet figured the ratios of red and silver.


Reds and Silvers do indeed produce a more delicate taste. They also tend to run a lower % solution and have a shorter run.

[tapper]

Brent
That is the same rig that I have. You will like it!

[Brent]

Flat47

by the time all the sap gets to the sugar shack, the mix has always tested 2% or better, so I can't complain about that.

Tapper:
looked at your pictures. Looks great. It's going to be a dream to brick in compared to all the angles on the 2x6. I can only dream of a sugar shack like your latest creation.

By the way, I'll be tripping down to PA just south west of Erie to take my 2x6 to it's new home.

[tapper]

Brent,
I am 60 miles east of Erie. Stop by when you are in the neighborhood.

[Jeff E]

Guys, I agree the syrup grading will tend to lighter with the RO. 2 seasons ago all I made was light and medium.
This last season I did not make any syrup lighter than Dark Amber. It was a wierd year, warm and short.

Anyway, I am curious for those long time RO users, if they agree that they make all grades, it just depends on the year.

[Thad Blaisdell]

I talked with some long time sugarmakers who all have agreed that the RO has made syrup much lighter. Another thought was that the higher the concentrate the lighter it got.

[Jeff E]

This year I will be concentrating to 8%, then running that to a steamaway on the 3x12. It should be interesting. Last couple of years, I would recirculate sometimes and get the concentrate up to 15%. I did not like the way the evaporator performed with the higher concentrations. Niter build up in the flue pan...

I have limited experience, but I dont remember the grade changing much between 8% and 15 %.
I will pay attention to that. CANT WAIT, tapping is just around the corner!:lol:

[maplwrks]

I disagree with all of the above statements---Jeff is close to right on. I concentrate to 20% and almost never make light syrup. I will make a lot of Med A, but very little if any Fancy or Light A. Most of the folks that make the comments about RO making lighter syrup fall into 2 categories---1. they made a lot of Light syrup prior to RO,2. they don't know what they are talking about.
I am starting to recognize that maybe there is something to this "regions of syrup" that being said, that depending on soil conditions, weather patterns, climate, etc.... affect the amount of light syrup and the flavor of syrup made.
In my opinion, the biggest factor to making light syrup is cleanliness. As far as Brents' problem, I would buy a plastic tank and store my sap in it for a day or so and you'll make dark syrup.

[Thad Blaisdell]

Mike, a couple of questions for you..... Did you make fancy this year? Everyone I know made almost all fancy this year, and I would be very curious if you did't. Also did you ever boil with out the RO and if so was it any different? Also do you boil your syrup everyday? Your comment on cleanliness I do believe but I viewed your photos and I dont believe that is a factor for you or your sugarhouse.... very nice.

[Brent]

Mike
we're on the same track. I did put all my sap in plastic totes ... even ran some through the RO to 8% and let them stew over night. It didn't help make darker stuff but it did make me think of the guys that discovered plastics ... lots of ropy stuff. I can only guess that the temps were so high that the normal invert sugar active microbes found it too warm and whatever kind of bactria make sap alcoholic and ropy loved the warmer temps. We definitely fit into your category 1... made lighter stuff from day one. Never made any meduim let alone dark or commercial. We should be so lucky.

Maybe the new rig with the SteamAway will help. If it does then maybe we'll be selling an RO. Go figure.

[sapman]

Brent, wish I could trade barrels with you! I made too much dark this year. I think my reason, and I have an ro, is because I've been dealing with lower sugar % sap, and I have to concentrate longer, or recirculate, to get it to where I want. I bet if you recirc. your sap, starting with lower %, by the time you boil it would make darker syrup. First year with an RO, I did 2.5-3.75% roadside sap, and never made lighter stuff.

[Flat47]

Here's some interesting input from page 76 of the 1996 edition of "North American Maple Syrup Producers Manual" regarding color of syrup:

"First, the longer sap is boiled, the darker it becomes. Making high-quality, light-colored syrup requires evaporation time be kept to a minimum. Anything that slows the evaporation process (uneven fire, weak fire, excessive sap depth in evaporator, etc.) will produce darker, usually stronger flavored syrup.

Second, at low sugar concentrations, relatively little color is produced by a given length of boiling, while at higher concentrations more color develops in the same length of boiling time. The rate of color formation increases dramatically at around 25 Brix, which occurs when sap is well into the syrup pan. Thus, the length of time that sap is heated in a sap pan (when the Brix value is low) is relatively unimportant in the formation of color. As Brix concentrations increase in the syrup pan, color develops rapidly."

[Brian Ryther]

Just to add my experences to the topic. Last year was my first year with an RO. It was also the first year I made Light syrup. I think it had nothing to do with it. The time that the sap spends in the evap only change slightly. I went from 10 gallons of syrup per hour to thirty gallons per hour. So within an hour of boiling I only fed the evap 20 more gallons of sap to make up for the out going syrup. Not that much when you consider that my evap averages in the low 300gph of sap range. So time spent boiling was the same. It is my opinion that weather and soil are the biggest factors for color and flavor (especially early season when things are at there cleanest.)

[Brent]

Actually Dr Perkins of Vermont Univ extension has posted here that the key to color is the ratio of sugars in the sap. The more invert sugars, the darker the syrup. Turns out that invert sugars carmelize a few degrees lower than non-invert, and we just reach that temp making syrup.

So where does the invert sugar come from ?? According to the University studies, from the microbes in the sap. The more microbes, the more sugars get converted. The warmer the sap, the warmer the trees ( at the end of the season especially ) the more microbes, the more invert, the darker the syrup. So it does have something to do with boiling time ie time spend and near syrup temp.
If you're putting higher concentrations through, the exposure time to the higher temps (217 degrees) goes down, and you get lighter syrup ... that is compared to syrup of the same batch that was not put through and RO.

Further supporting all this is the phenomonan known as stack burn. If you put a lot of syrup in bottles or cans and pack it away in boxes that trap the heat, more carmelization takes place and the syrup ends up darker than when it was canned.

Another interesting thing I read about the microbes that do the sugar conversion is that at (oh oh alzimer's attack)
at a certain temp that I think was 50 degrees, the microbes double in population every 20 minutes. At first that's not a big deal, but as it accellerates the effect compounds rapidly. Furthermore if you concentrate your sap AND keep it warm, the microbes are exposed to yum yum, more sugar, so they multiply even faster. Put in a UV light and you sterilize them, or at least most of them, and they don't multiply and you get lighter syrup.
Keep the sap ice cold, lower multiplication rate, lighter syrup.

So I concentrated mine to 8% and it got warm, some even for 48 hours, and I still couldn't get what I wanted. My danged bush must be near sterile of the microbes.
And our customers want medium and dark. Bummmer.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

[QUOTE=Flat47;116228]Here's some interesting input from page 76 of the 1996 edition of "North American Maple Syrup Producers Manual" regarding color of syrup:

"First, the longer sap is boiled, the darker it becomes. Making high-quality, light-colored syrup requires evaporation time be kept to a minimum. Anything that slows the evaporation process (uneven fire, weak fire, excessive sap depth in evaporator, etc.) will produce darker, usually stronger flavored syrup.

Seems like this has been interested discussion and I have to even disagree with the producers manual. I made some a number of years ago in a batch pan and cooked it several different times, adding raw sap each additional time to the already cooked syrup and it still came out very light, could have read the newspaper thru it.

I do think that the longer you cook it, most of the time this will cause it to be darker but sometimes you get sap that you just can't seem to get dark syrup out of it.

[Brent]

Barndon
I get two things from your post

1) the notion that "light" means high quality is just plain wrong.

2) batch producers and flat pan producers have to luck in and have very little to no invert suger, or it will darken.

==================

would it be sacrilege for me to even think ( I'm already guilty of thinking it I guess ) to add some invertase to get some darker syrup ???

[DrTimPerkins]

....would it be sacrilege for me to even think ( I'm already guilty of thinking it I guess ) to add some invertase to get some darker syrup ???

Sacrilege? Perhaps.

Illegal....good chance of it....depending upon where you're from.

[Brent]

Certainly couldn't call it "pure" any more could you ???

Would it work ???

[DrTimPerkins]

Certainly couldn't call it "pure" any more could you ???

You'd have to look up the specific laws and regulations of your own local, state, or province. My off the cuff answer is.....maybe.

Invertase is allowed in some value-added "pure" maple products IN SOME, BUT NOT ALL AREAS. For example, NY allows the use of invertase in maple cream, VT does not. Varies depending on where you are and who is doing the interpreting of the regs.

If you add invertase, or more simply, allow microrganisms to "do their thing" for a period of time, you will increase the glucose + fructose ratio (slightly) resulting in a darker syrup (in most cases....there are always exceptions....maple chemistry is interesting in lots of ways).

To my knowledge, adding invertase to sap is in sort of a grey area, except for a bunch of places that very narrowly specify exactly what can be added to sap or syrup and state that nothing else can be.

There already is a product, "Extra Thick" syrup (note I didn't say "maple" syrup) that uses invertase (patented process) to convert a fairly high % of sucrose to invert sugars. The purpose of this is to allow the syrup to be taken to a higher brix level (thickness) without crystallization. http://www.naturalgrocers.com/smf_maple_extra_thick_og_by_shady_maple_farms_12_7 _oz_item_118062-p-9741.html

According to the laws of several states, this product cannot be classified as "maple syrup", hence the label "syrup". In other places, the law doesn't specifically disallow it, so it can be termed "maple syrup." It isn't bad....is definitely thicker, but doesn't taste like maple syrup and has a chemical profile very unlike pure maple syrup as recognized. It has a far stronger caramel flavor to it as well. I actually like the caramel flavor personally, but this is definitely not the same thing as maple syrup.


Would it work ???

Most likely would work just fine. Just don't let the old-timers hear you talking about your problems with not being able to make dark syrup. They'd probably think you're crazy and hit you up-side the head with a stick of firewood.

[Sugarmaker]

Brent,
Not sure who is getting your old unit but would open the sugar house for you to stop in to visit while in the southwest Erie area if it is convenient.

You can check the web site for directions and home phone. Work Phone is 814-868-5424 x 6274 during the day.
Regards,
Chris