Bee questions.

[red maples]

SO I am getting serious about starting a hive next year. Last year was getting syrup going and this years chicken, and next year bees.

1. I will be ordering bees what kind do I want to get I have been doing alot of reading and it seems that western european bees are pretty good beacuse they are more disease and mite resistent then other bees.

2. when is a good time to order stuff for bees and the bees them selves? I wanna make sure I have everything in time for spring. I could make a hive my self but I just have too many building and remodeling projects on deck I wouldn't get to it for a few years.

[brookledge]

Contact Sugarmaker on this site. Chris does honey and maple and should be able to answer your questions.
Keith

[red maples]

thanks keith

[stoweski]

I'm in the process of typing out a "What would Keith do?" list to give you some idea of what I would do if I had to do it all over. I'll PM you with it when I finish.

Keith

[gmcooper]

Brad,
We have about 40 hives and make and sell equipment and bees (nucs that we over winter). We have mostly Carniolans. They seem to work well for us with our winters and produce quite well.
Best advice I can give you is see if there is an active bee club in your area. Most are very good at helping new people.
If you ever want to talk bees dad is usually around the farm and always willing to talk bees.
Mark

[red maples]

The book that I am reading says that the western european bees are fairly new here in the states and and very much like the carniolans but are a little more disease and mite resistant. and they also weather the cold very well.

I would love to catch my own swarm and I am always looking for 1 but I have seen only 1 in my life time a few years ago in the parking lot of lowes. very cool I walked right up to it to check it out. people wouldn't even come out of the store or out of there cars. they aren't gonna sting you unless you piss them off and they are threatened!!!

I might stop up. I have to go cabalas soon anyway I will try to stop in. you guys are what only another 1/2hr 45 min. from there right . I'll give you a heads up first.

[gmcooper]

Brad yes we are only about 20 minutes from Cabelas. What book are you reading?

[red maples]

2 actually the first is
"beekeeping for fun and profit" by cindy belknap easy reading a little vague in places though but a good start.

and I picked up but haven't started reading yet is it looks good lots of pics I like pics.
"the backyard beekeeper" by Kim Flottom

[Lwood]

If you haven't found it yet, check out the forums at beesource.com. In my opinion it is the Maple Trader for bees.

[Sugarmaker]

My first hobby passion is maple thats why I spend most of my time here! probably hunting second and bees third.
Yes find a local bee club and join. They do a lot over the winter. Try to have at least one or two hives ready for April next year. You can buy package bees and 3 lb with a queen + shipping will be about $100.

I liked the russian queens that I ordered several years ago. They built up very fast. Plan to spend about $500 for the woodenware and basic tools to set up two hives.
If I can help in any way PM me!
Yes the bee forum is set up the same way as the trader.
Good luck with the bees! We love the fresh honey too!

I like to gather local swarms too!

Regards,
Chris

[red maples]

thanks guy... I did register on beesource.. its as busy as the trader in march right now!! yeah I pretty much plan on spending hopefully no more than $1500 on bee keeping supplies for the first year but I said that about maple too and doubles what I planned on spending to start that!!!!!:rolleyes:

[mapleack]

Bees are very interesting to have and work with and having your own honey is almost as good as having your own syrup. Bees are a lot of work, not to mention mites, CCD, etc. That being said I have one hive at the moment, and kinda wish I'd spent all the money I put into bee stuff into maple instead. I think I would've gotten a much better return out of buying tubing. But hey, its the learning experience called life, do what ever you are interested in.

[stoweski]

Made a hive for my father back in Dec '08. We outfitted it with bees in May '09. Checked them three times all summer after installing the nuc. That included bundling them up for winter.

Did some spring cleaning this year and have been up to check them twice so far other than the first inspection. Only thing my father has done is removed a super of honey for himself this July.

The hive has it's mites in check and has five supers still on top of a deep. Our plan is to let them 'bee' and don't interrupt them too much. Let nature take it's course and see what happens.

So far it's been the best hive to work with. Gentle bees, hardly any smoke has been used on them. They don't even know/care that we are in the hive. Not much work and they are doing great!

Wish all of my hives were like that! They can be a little bit of work but it's enjoyable on a cool (not this summer) morning when they're out flying and the smell of the hive permeates the air!

Good luck! $1500 will get you started with no problem and then some. I believe we spent around $1100 for everything our first year.

[red maples]

Good the less the better. I was hoping for $1000 but threw in the extra 500 just to make sure I had enough!!!!

[KenWP]

I had a hive of bees offered to me today. I am wishing I had of spent the 5 bucks last summer and bought all the bee keeping equipment at a garage sale they had. Owell hindsight is foresight.
I could have had a lot of free bees last week as the barn was full of them for some reason. They came in the barn and tried to go out the windows. I have piles of dead bees on the window sills now. I had no way to really help them as the windows doan't open on that side of the barn.

[Mike]

Break a window to let them out....Replace the glass after....Just a thought..

[BryanEx]

For those of you that keep bees... is there any money in it or is it just a labour of love? I ask because I've looked at bee keeping every year but when I add up the costs of equipment, nucs, replacing queens, CCD, packaging, etc and then look at what honey sells for locally I just can't see being "bucks up" as a small producer. Anyone turning a profit with 6 hives or less?

[red maples]

well it seems to be cheaper so far than setting up a small maple operation. I went to bee school this past fall and learned a ton. which reminds me I have to order bees. with the price for the bees school was also a membership for our local bee assoc.

but I got 2 full hives for christmas (4 deeps and 4 mediums) I have to put together and paint. and a bunch of frames to put together. I have my whole list of stuff. all together about $700 with out bees and a honey extractor but I will wait on that and just borrow someone elses for now as most people say its rare to get any honey the first year.

a few ways to save some money is to get hive boxes and frames unassembled and put them together yourself. Byan I know your up north there but there is a company in ME called humble Abodes http://humbleabodesinc.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1

and from what I have priced around they seem be about the most reasonable. but they are all in same ball park.

[western mainer]

We have 3 hives and will be adding 3 more this spring. To make money you would have to have 25-50 hives and rent them out. I make all the wooden parts to save money I also have my own sawmill and trees to saw out, like anything you can't count your time.
Brian

[Sugarmaker]

Bees are a second source of natural sweeteners. The honey sells well, we sell out every year. I could probably sell more if I had it. 6 hives produced about 350 lb of honey at $5.00 per lb retail. Will you get rich? NO can it pay for the hobby? Yes, after the initial investment.
Plan to be in constant need of bees, either package bees, swarms or splits to keep going. Losses have been real bad the last couple years.
I love the honey from our own hives!
Regards,
Chris

[FunnyFarm]

Plenty of money in bees... easy to sell the honey. I build all my own equipment at a fifth the price you can buy it for. I also do bee extractions so my bees are free and i make a profit for taking them out... and the maple trees don't make syrup in the summer. For us its about something to be done at every point of the year. between the syrup the honey a small market garden meat chickens and lambs the farm is actually beginning to turn a profit.

[stoweski]

Plan to be in constant need of bees, either package bees, swarms or splits to keep going. Losses have been real bad the last couple years.
I love the honey from our own hives!
Regards,
Chris

Losses have been significant this year. We're down 50%! Had 8 down to 4! Has been rather discouraging.

Will NOT be ordering packages from the south. I believe that's what lead to our demise. Want my advise? Don't order packages from Georgia - or anywhere in the south. Go local... or north of you if possible... and make sure they are local bees and not those being shipped up from the south.

And good luck. This year we paid for our new extractor and then some. We are totally out of honey... over 160lbs of it!

Keith

[BryanEx]

6 hives produced about 350 lb of honey at $5.00 per lb retail.

Thanks for the numbers Chris! So sales on 6 hives would be $1750 less packaging & labeling (not sure what that costs), replacing queens every second(?) year, and replacing entire colonies in case of CCD, plus start up costs of $1000 for everything I figure I wanted to get going. Once that is all done I then need to sell about 30 1 pound containers a month to use up my annual inventory. Your situation may be different but like my maple business, I have several very large honey producers in my area to compete against which means either a lot of effort to sell or finding a niche market somehow. I was able to do that with maple and I'm very profitable for it but I hardly want to try a "collect your own honey" business. :o

It just seems to me that like most farming, economics of scale play a big part in profitability and like most hobby farming breeding is where the money can be made. When I look at the costs of a nuc or replacement queen I can see profit, with honey sales as a by-product, in the same way that breeding poultry or alpacas (or whatever) is more profitable than the products derived from them.

I just don't know and have gone back and forth on bee keeping for three years now. I guess I just don't have enough desire to "make it work" based on my interest in doing so. For right now I'll just stick to my free-range decaying leaf fed maple trees and let my wife continue to lose money on her chickens. :lol:

[Groves]

We have only 1 colony, our first.

It got above 40 for the first day in many yesterday. I couldn't hear any buzzing, and plenty of dead bees when I removed the entrance reducer....

but...

an hour later, they must have warmed up enough to fly because they were out in force going to the bathroom and flying around. It will probably be another week before it's warm enough to come out again.

Every time I'm sitting in my warm house and think of how they keep the center of their cluster at 90+ degrees F all winter, I think wow, what a great creation.

We're not going to do the frame hives (Langstroths), but do vertical topbar hives (Warrés) and will add a Japanese hive (no bars, just spiles) in the Spring.

Many ways to skin this cat.

[gmcooper]

Beekeeping can turn a profit but like with maple everything has to go just right. It does take a lot more to keep bees now with all the issues with mites and averything else going on. Weather during the growing season also seems to play a bigger part with all the other issues. It sure ain't like when my great grandfather kept bees till mid 70's. Watching out for AFB and catching any swarms pretty much was his only concerns. Throw on some supers and take them off end of summer. I think we have lost 1 out of 40 hives as of last week, but looks like a nearby keeper lost 50% or more of his hives before Christmas.
Local honey sells well with local syrup.

[Lwood]

So sales on 6 hives would be $1750 less packaging & labeling

Your mileage may vary. lol

This can vary greatly. Depends on the year. Some are great years. Some years you may not harvest a single pound.


which means either a lot of effort to sell or finding a niche market somehow.

Most of my customers are my customers because I do not use any chemical treatments and use natural cell ( No Foundation, No plastic frames). Many people are coming around to the idea of reducing the ammount of chemicals that are introduced into the hive. There are many different schools of thought on that subject. Ask 10 different beekeepers and you will get 15 different answers.


I am a firm believer in survival of the fittest. Stoweski has the correct idea try to get local stock if at all possible. I have been breeding my own queens for a couple of years now. And the survival rate is up around 70 percent from when I was getting Bees from down south.

For me it is more a labor of love. But the extra cash that it brings in is always welcome. Then there is the reaction of people when you are catching a swarm. One guy that called me told my wife "There is something wrong with him." I'm not saying that he was wrong......

[Groves]

I do not use any chemical treatments and use natural cell ( No Foundation, No plastic frames). Many people are coming around to the idea of reducing the ammount of chemicals that are introduced into the hive. There are many different schools of thought on that subject.

Have your bees regressed in size or stayed the same?

[Lwood]

Have your bees regressed in size or stayed the same?

On the average they appear slightly smaller. But I would not say that the have regressed as far as small cell foundation would.

[Sugarmaker]

Nothing is for sure in these farming type hobby businesses. I like having the bees around, and plan to keep at least a few hives. Have had up to 15 strung out. Like my dad said about the dairy farm "you can work as much time and a half as you want too".
A bad year in bees can wipe them out. I agree that I like to get local swarms as I think they have a better chance for survival.
Chris

[BryanEx]

Okay... so saying 350 pounds of honey one season, do you retail it all to individual consumers or is there also a bulk sales aspect (bakeries, restaurants, etc)? If you do sell bulk, what percent do you charge compared to retail? It think if I were to do honey I would likely try for a few sales at less money than trying to sell a whack of plastic squeezy honey bear bottles throughout the year.

[The Birdman]

there are packers that buy bulk. Its @ 1.50- 1.85 a pound.

[Sugarmaker]

Bryan,
I try not to sell any bulk honey unless I just have way to much, which doesnt seam to happen lately. Our honey sales are about 50% retail and 50% wholesale. In 2 lb,1 lb, 1/2 lb some in glass, some in plastic squeeze bottles. I like the glass containers because if it crystalizes you can gently reheat it in glass.
Yes, just like syrup, the bulk honey brings in the money right now without the work of bottling, maintaining (crystalization) labeling, marketing, and being there for the sale. But like syrup if you want to maximize the sales dollars then you need to go the small package route. So what I do is to wholesale some to get the same effect. I package up about $200-300 dollars and then go pedal it at about $75 per stop. Makes a nice way to spend a Saturday in the fall. I sell some to local fruit and vegitable stands and they usually buy several 2 lb jars, and a half dozen each of 1lb, 1/2lb and 12 oz. By the way I can never keep the plastic bear bottles on the shelf! Also folks come in and buy both syrup and honey at the same time too. So we have honey ready during our maple weekend open house and sales are good. I guess I still promote the maple more. The other thing from a unique product type perspective is that honey is made all over the world and is shipped in. Syrup is made only within hunderds of miles around the great lakes. Guess you could call syrup a more local product?
Good luck with the bees.
Chris


Okay... so saying 350 pounds of honey one season, do you retail it all to individual consumers or is there also a bulk sales aspect (bakeries, restaurants, etc)? If you do sell bulk, what percent do you charge compared to retail? It think if I were to do honey I would likely try for a few sales at less money than trying to sell a whack of plastic squeezy honey bear bottles throughout the year.

[maplefarmer]

i have a few hives and can sell all the honey i get, usually 20-22 5 gal. buckets a year. if you are looking for bee forums, check out www.beesource.com and www.beemasters.com they offer alot of advice.

[Sugarmaker]

Do you think that was hint to us bee guys:)

[Lwood]

By the way I can never keep the plastic bear bottles on the shelf!

Sugarmaker, Try the 1 lb upside down squeeze bottles with the dripless top. I'll sell 20 of them to 1 of the 1 lb regular queenline style bottles.

[Sugarmaker]

Lwood,
I will look into that do you buy them from Mann Lake LTD?
Chris