Bricking and cement

[steve J]

in the pass I have dried brick but on the new evaporator I want to cement in the front wall near door and back near the chimney pipe as they are verticle walls vs slanted walls. Two question do you apply cemnt sort of like laying tile? an dthen place the bricks and fill in the cracks?

Also is ther a way to cut circular cuts. ie around the stack collar? Also the dor area has an angle iron frame that is not flush with wall. Do I cut small bricks for that or can I glue in some pan gasket to insulate that frame?

[Haynes Forest Products]

The metal and brick will expand at differant rates so you wont get a bond. We only mortered the brick in place and didnt worry about the air space between the arch sheet metal and brick. Gravity is your friend.

[brookledge]

The best way to cut the brick is with a diamond blade. You should be able to get a fairly cheap one for a circular saw. Otherwise a rental place like Taylor rental might be good. The brick is fairly soft compared to granite etc. so you don't need to buy a blade with a lot of diamond segment which will cost more.
Keith

[red maples]

the cheapest diamond blade I have seen is like $20 + I just used masonary blades...yeah its not granite they are softer...but for some reason my split bricks were very hard to cut!!!

[morningstarfarm]

I second the masonry blades....though i get the 4" ones for an angle grinder...much easier to use than a circular saw..i believe they are live 2 bucks each at home depot

[steve J]

ok I understand the not bricking to the sheet metal and thanks for telling me or I would have. but how about that steel angle iron frame around the door. Should this be insulated with anything so it does not warp? I was going to brick up to this fram since its welded to the metal and does not allow bricks to go over it easily?

[Haynes Forest Products]

Any insulation that keeps the heat and flames from the metal framework is a good Idea. All the new units are insulated to the hilt and yes things will last longer and more heat to the pans will result.

[red maples]

I insulated my door on my 2x6 and that makes a huge difference and I put some insulation around the front at least what would stay. but eventually the heat will take its toll to cast and iron. but it will take some time.

[steve J]

I have some of that 1.5 inch pan gasket I would think that would work if I uses some gasket cement on it

[brookledge]

I think you would be better off using stainless bolts. Either weld the head to the cast or drill a hole in the arch and using full thread bolts you can tighten up the bolt to the arch leaving the rest of the bolt sticking out. Now push the insulation over the bolt and place a stainless flat washer and the nut to hold it in place.
The type that Leader uses are special type where the locking device is just a quarter turn so it can be taken off and on with your hand
Keith

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I have an old 10" mitre saw and Lowes has the 10" Dewalt masonary blades for around $ 3. I just made about 60 cuts rebricking the upper half of my evaporator and used about 1.5 blades.

[steve J]

I am making progress on the bricking and I am pleased as it is really tight and for most part will require no cement on the verticle walls. But I have an area not sure how to handle. I have an 11 inch wide area above the door. the bottom one inche is steel angle iron that is welded flat against the steel front. So this area is raised plus a fair amount of weld spots and the a couple inches of metal up to the top rail. I am afraid that the blocks used in this area may no hold well. What have others done in this case?

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Any way you can attach a strip of 1" thick ceramic blanket to it?? It would protect better than brick and only weigh a few ounces.

[3rdgen.maple]

Not to throw a monkey wrench in your progress but did you by chance put in arch board between the metal and bricK? Putting it in first will hold the heat in the arch therefore making it more efficient. It also will protect the metal from the extreme heat. Bricks will get cherry hot in the firebox and that will transfer to the metal. Arch board is fairly cheap and well worth the investment. Or ceramic blanket will work personally i prefer arch board it really easy to work with.
I also seen a setup where a guy welded the bolt heads to the arch doors, installed the insulation and then put on a big fender washer and nut. I thought that was slick no drilling and bolts through the cast iron doors. Post # 7 from Haynes hit it on the head insulate it.

[steve J]

Were does one buy ceramic blanket?
I thought about the arch board but did not do it But you got me thinking about it at this point. Id that available at hardware stores or is it a maple supplier only product? Is it really 3/4 think ?

[3rdgen.maple]

I bought my archboard at bascoms. It comes in a 1" x 1' x 3' peice I think they are like 7 dollars and change. Well worth it. I checked around at local stores and found there pricing was extremely high. Im sure you could get blanket there as well. I highly recomend using something behind the brick.

[red maples]

I like the arch board because it is easy to work with. It cuts with a box knife easy to fit small pieces together if needed and best of all holds its shape very well. The only down side to working with both or ceramic blanket is they are both fiberous and if its a hot day and this summer has been hot every day and you sweat then both of these will stick and itch!!! I recommend wear a mask!!!

Bascom's has both but go for arch board!!!

[steve J]

Well I ordered some arch board from Bascoms Leader which I could have drove to does not carry it.

[3rdgen.maple]

I think you made a good choice getting it.

[Dennis H.]

So if I understand this correctly all you have to do is cut the arch board to fit, put in loose and then brick over top the arch board.
I assume that you want to use the full bricks for the fire box area right? Then I could use the halfs for the back of the arch correct? Or should I just use all fulls?
I kind of figure I will have to step the brick down at the top of the arch next to the pan rails, what kind of distance down should the step be? One brick height? Or should it be tapered/sloped?

So for jumping in here and asking questions, I need to start planning on how I am going to brick my evap in a few weeks.

[3rdgen.maple]

Well Dennis I used splits (half brick) on the hole arch. For quite a few reasons. They are cheaper for one, leaves more space in the firebox for wood, easier to cut and takes half the time for the arch to cool down at shutdown. The way Patrick told me to brick mine was use splits over archboard. He told me that with the arch board all your trying to do with the brick is protect it from damage. It protects the arch board from direct contact of the flames, damage from the wood, makes the arch itself last longer and best of all keeps the heat in for a better boil. Personally I would mud the bricks in place to hold them there. You really only need to put it on the edges where it makes contact with the other brick. Just dunk each one in a bucket of water as you go so the mud holds better. Oh and just a hammer and mason chisel works good and is fast for cutting brick. Score the brick and break them. Kind of an art to watch someone do it but with some practice it is the way to go. No dust, no clamping down bricks, quicker, less mess to clean up and your lungs will thank you.

[red maples]

Well I suck at hammer and chissel method of cutting bricks!!!! I did 2 messed them said forget it!!!

I used full bricks and 3rd gen and I have the same arch. I think It works good either way 1 thing I think I would change if I ever rebrick this arch it to use full bricks on the fire box and split on the rest. because the outer most flue is a little tight to the side of the arch. other than that I don't think it really changes that much I still get a good boil rate and I cut my wood an average of 16 inches and the thickness of about my mid forearm.

one thing I will add for this season arch is a well I don't know what to call it but a door block may be. One thing I noticed last year is this thing get one hell of a draft without forced air... so when the doors open even for a few seconds it cools off too much and creates too much mixing between the flue and syrup pans then I get long periods with out draw offs what ever. so what I did last year was to put a few wider pieces of wood right in front of the doors this blocked some of the air flow coming from the doors opening going just under the pans and pulled more from under the fire to keep the boiling more constant. but even with the insulated doors the arch front was getting too hot and turning red. So what I plan on doing is, I have a piece of 3/4 steel that is 1' x 3' and cut a piece 5-6 inches high to fit right in side the doors this way when I open the doors it won't pull as much draft from the doors and more from under the grates. We'll see I hope it works!!!

[3rdgen.maple]

Red full bricks are good too. I just did it the way the guy who builds them told me. Now that you mentioned it I remember him saying it was designed for splits with the flues being so close to the arch walls so he could get more flues in his pans and the bottom of the flues are to close to the arch bed for full on mine with the drain setup on it. I had the same problem firing my arch at first as well and in fact my dad still does. Here is how I attacked it to solve the "killing the boil" problem. I sorta double fire it. Have the wood ready at the door, open one door only fill that side up as fast as possible, shut the door, a few minutes later repeat on the other side. I also never fill it moe than 3/4 full at best. Works very well for me. I actually got scared last year when I had a helper with me and we set the egg timer for 6 minutes and between the 2 of us we crammed wood in as fast as we could. That darn stack was blazing orange almost to the roofline. But man where we drawing off syrup lol. An idea for you if that does not work is to attach a pivoting peice of metal on the inside above the doors. It will swing in when loading wood and fall back down in front of the doors after. If you set it up so it leaves about 3/4 of the firebox open and dont overfill it so the wood blocks it from falling back. Do you have a raised or drop flue pan? If its a drop I have another problem fix for you.

Ok noticed in your profile you got the drop. The biggest problem I had at first was the mixing of the pans. Consitant firing helps alot but what I noticed happening was when the flue pan is ripping it pushes sap back into the float box, then when you opened the doors the boil relaxed the float drops and fills the pan. I kept compensating raising the float at first to keep the sap level up under a hard boil, open doors, boil dies down, float drops, sap over fills pans. The constant change in sap level mixes the syrup and flue pan. Took forever to drawoff sometimes. What I did was buy an 1 1/4 copper elbow and a short peice of copper pipe. Soldered the pipe in the elbow and stuck the elbow in the opening from the float box with the pipe pointed to the back, the elbow fits snug enough in the opening so no need to solder it.. Problem solved the boil does not push sap back into the float box, never touched the float level again and was drawing off every hour from that point on. I would try that first before modifying the doors you will be amazed at the difference and how often you drawoff syrup with that change alone.

[red maples]

As far as the drain at the back of the flue pan I used split bricks back there. the only reason I used full bricks is because thats the way the prior owner had it so I did what he did. but it works good I will maybe re-brick ther back with split in a few years to maximize the boiling space better as I add in more taps. Live and learn!!!

I did do the elbow pipe trick you told me that last year and that worked great also help maintain the boil a little better beacuse it acted as sort of a pre-heater too.

I won't be modifying the doors in any way. the metal is thick enough to stand on its own so it won't need anything to hold it in place beacuse I want it to be removable for when I scrub the flues between boilings and clean any ashes, starting fire etc. with the angles of the side of the firebox it should sit in there nicely. If I find I keep knocking it over I will cement in a piece of brick loosly so I can still move it but when I did it with the wood it worked great!!! I rarely lost a boil and I was drawing off at more consistant intervals. and had way less mixing.

I fire exactly how you said. I set the egg timer (depending how the wood is burning ) anywhere from 3 to 6 minutes pressure and humidity seems to play a big roll on how this this thing burns. and last year there was alot of days of rain and cold when I was boiling. I have tried the double fire to and that works its just hard to keep up on when your by your self!!! and yes my stainless stack is a nice copper color now but it looks pretty!!!

But as long as that metal piece is movable and I can take it out if needed...then it can't hurt to try right.

How far over the flues to you keep you sap level? I run mine pretty low when its a full boil the sap is kinda just skidding over the top of the flues. which is about 1 inch+ in the syrup pan and try to keep the foam to a minimum as it boils faster.

One thing I have to do is increase the size of the line going into the float box from the head tank. what size is yours? I used 3/4 inch but it was just too small I was constantly having to hold down the float to let more sap in which was a bit of a boil kill too. but I did learn alot my first year and it does take practice.

[3rdgen.maple]

Man you mean to tell me I wrote all that and I already told you the elbow and pipe trick lol. Playing around and trying to improve things is all part of the fun so if you find something that improves things share how it turns out cause it may just get put on my short list. And yep you couldnt tell my stack is stainless steele either nice copper/brass looking now. I run the sap level in the flue pan at a scary level according to dad. Its probably about 1/4 inch above the flues when not boiling, and when it is the sap just rolls over them. So it leaves about 3/4 inch in the syrup pan. My dad runs it about an inch deep in the flue pan. He is alot more laxidazical (spelling) about firing and paying attention. As long as he is having fun who cares right. My pipe from the holding tank to float box is 1 1/4 and is a clear braided pipe so I can watch the flow for entertainment. Weather is a big factor for sure sometimes it is like someone hit a light switch and no matter what you do its a lazy boil and sometimes it is just the opposite. When things are right I can drawoff about 3 quarts an hour. Thing is when it aint boiling as hard as I like i probably get 6 quarts every 2 hours. SO all in all the same amount is made im guessing. Something to keep an eye on for next season.

[red maples]

yeah youtold me!!! HA. I always do mix a few bigger pieces wood in the mix when I need a little break usually when nature calls or have to run to the house quick or guests...or a quick bite to eat. slows things down a bit but burns longer with out firing!!!

I am gonna switch mine out to 1-1/4 definitly need that steady flow.

And oh yeah I am learnin' lots of tweeking to the tubing this year gotta add in 2 sap ladders to get a better slope and keep things flowing better and build a plattform for the tanks to get them off the ground so they don't get flooded out if we get a monsoon again. and adding iin more branches of mainline to shorten laterals to maximize vacuum.

[steve J]

Ok the arch board came in and I got it installed and recut most of the bricks but now I have another question. The rail is 1 inch wide and the arch board fills that area. do I bring my brick up to what would be level with the bottom of the rail or do I cut it a 1/2 inch or so short so the heat can get up under the pan better?

Also my building tend to move around some as frost leaves ground thus I am constantly releveling between boils that is why I dry brick. But with out rails to hold brick in place some I am nervous that bricks will fall during releveling. If I cement them is ir fairly easy to brick it apart at end of season so I can take them out to move the evaporator?

[red maples]

you should brick up to the rail one way or another. but use split bricks up by the rail you could also angle cut them as well.

I would cement them to hold them in place. I have to relevel though the season as well. I do have cracks between my bricks no biggie but mine only changes at the very most 1/4 to 1/2 inch and thats a lot...and how much do you need to change level?? shouldn't be that much that the bricks would fall???

[3rdgen.maple]

Steve without really knowing how your arch is designed I cannot tell you if the bricks will fall or not. Releveling should not have a big effect on your decision to morter them in but having to remove them to move the arch is another story. Best I can tell you is dry fit them and see what happens the first year. If a brick falls here or there just put her back and the next season you will know for sure if it worked or you need to make a change.

[steve J]

ok still one more question?
evaporator is a 2x4 the fire box goes 24 inches deep and is about 19 inches down from the top rail The back of the box goes up 10 inches and the proceeds back on a level plain to the back wall. Flow hole is 3 inches up from that metal bottom. My question is should I build a 5 or 6 inch false wal about half way between the back of fire box and the back of evaporator to force the heat up higher and closer to the pan?

[Thad Blaisdell]

On a 2x3 or 2x4 how many fire bricks are you actually talking about? My cousin built a small arch that size and he used ceramic blanket on the back end and it worked super great. Wouldnt that lighten up your arch enough so that you could cement in the brick for the firebox and still be able to move it around?

[Dennis H.]

Ok I am bring this posting back to the top.

I now have my evap ready for bricking and I need help getting starting.
It is a Lapierre 2'x5' raised flue.
The hand drawn pic that was included says that I 1st brick the firebox sides and the rear of the arch. 2nd I brick the slope of the firebox and bottom of rear of arch. 3rd I add zonalite to the rear of the arch and then cover the zonalite with either cement or anything to keep the zonalite in place.

I want to put arch board in to further protect the arch and to keep the heat in. Do I put arch board around the entire arch or just the firebox area?

For what I have read and understand once I add arch board I should only need splits for bricking right? Will I need bricks at the rear of the arch if I use arch board back there?

[Dennis H.]

I have been working on putting in the arch board, fairly easy going.

I have a raised flue so I need to bring the back half up to the pan rails.
The directions say to use vermiculite as fill and then cover with a formable refractory. Can I use arch board instead of the formable refractory?
I was think that Once I have the vermiculite in I could cut some of the arch board to cover the vermiculite so that it won't blow away.

I am also thinking that I will only need to brick the front of the arch and leave the rear half just arch board.

Anythoughts on this?

[Slatebelt*Pa*Tapper]

I just got my 8 lb 3/4" superwool max blanket(sf607) today and will be doing up my 20 x 66 pro.
mine is a drop but i plan to lay blanket every were i can and then go over it all with 1/2 brick. sides bottom everywhere possible.

[mike z]

I just finished putting in that same blanket. It installs very easy. I put full size brick in the firebox and spilts in the back. I got the full size brick used. I cut the brick with a masonary blade. I found 90% of the bricks cut real easy and the others sparked and didn't hardly cut at all. I just put those aside for another application and moved on.

[red maples]

If your firing with wood use the refractory its just that much easier to clean a smoother surface. I have a drop flue but either way you should still brush the flues out durring the season I do it before I fire it up everytime ...so your flames have a better contact with the bottom of the pan. Its enough that I like to sweep it out a bit. the arch board could also shift and move if not held down. it could also swell too.

I had some that were the same some bricks easy to cut other forget it. you grind down a blade on one brick!!!

[Dennis H.]

I have now started to brick the evap.
Here are a few pics of my progress.
I now have all the bricks cut and dry fitted for the firebox area and now have one side motared in.
I will need to pick up a few more bricks to finish off the back half. It took 36 splits to to the front. I had very little waste when I was done. Heck I had less waste than what I had on my barrel evap that I made. That thing took me like 2 days to brick I had all these bricks cut and dry fitted in something like 2 hrs.

I also posted pics of the evap with just archboard installed. that is why I only used splits for the bricks. You can see on the back half that part is not covered in archboard. That is where I will pour in vermiculite to make the ramp for the raised flue pan.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Very nice job!!!

[danno]

I was gonna say! Dennis, you're welcome to come do mine if I ever have to brick another arch.

[Dennis H.]

I now have the arch completely bricked and ready for the pans!!:D

I ended up bricking part of the back half under the stack. Then I used archboard to make the ramp but before I put the top piece on I filled it in with zonalite, it's the same thing as vermiculite.
Since I had a good bit of refractory motar left I decided to cover the archboard with it so that it will stand up to cleaning better than archboard alone.

[whalems]

I am going to be bricking my 4x12 in the next few days. This will be the first time i have done this so I have a few questions.

1. Do i put cement between the bricks or just "smear it over the face?

2. How thick on the face?

3. How long does the refractory cement need to cure? I see where some have used a heater inside the arch to help w/ the curing process but for how long? Days? weeks??

I will be putting 2 layers of 1/2 inch ceramic blanket under full bricks. Thanks for any help on this. Mike

[Dennis H.]

I used the premixed stuff. you want to mix it up real good before using it, it should be really smooth and creamy.
When I cut my brick I made sure that there was maybe 1/16-1/8" between the bricks. you really don't even need that much.
I put a little motar on the edges and wiggled the bricks into each other. I good thing to do is pre wet the bricks 1st so the bricks don't suck all the water out of the motar.
Clean off the excess motar from the joints.

To make it nicer looking, it's just me, I used a little water and my hand to smooth the face of the bricks out.

The pre mixed stuff cures by heat so you will need to get a fire going in there to cure it.

You will want to keep it above freezing till the motar dries. Some suggest using a heat lamp or a 100w light bulb in the fire box area to keep alittle heat in there. When I did my evap it was in the summer so it dried in hours. but you still need to fire it to cure it. I haven't tried it but I think till you fire cure the motar water will be able to effect the motar. Once it dries you should be safe with it sitting there till you can fire cure it.

[stoweski]

The pre mixed stuff cures by heat so you will need to get a fire going in there to cure it.

You will want to keep it above freezing till the motar dries. Some suggest using a heat lamp or a 100w light bulb in the fire box area to keep alittle heat in there. When I did my evap it was in the summer so it dried in hours. but you still need to fire it to cure it.

Crap. Guess I have to wait to mortar mine. At -7 tonight and highs hovering around 25 all week I don't see any days above freezing for a while. While a 100w lightbulb may work at 25 I don't see it working at -7! :(

How much of a fire is needed? How long? This of course will be my test boil too since this rig is new to me. Only thing I have left to do at this point.

Keith