Survey Questions - In 2 Parts

[DrTimPerkins]

Hi Folks,

One of the questions asked in the survey I conducted after the sugaring season asked about suggestions for research projects. Keeping in mind that we can't do everything, I wanted to answer/address some of the questions. Questions asked are in bold. My responses are italicized. I apologize for the length of this.

If you submit questions/comments to any of this, please quote just the section you are referring to, and cut out the rest.

Definitely would like to see work on a CST w/ check valve. I would definitely use these if the stubby could be eliminated. This is an area of interest, however Leader Evaporator has the exclusive license. If they wish to work in this area themselves, or sub-license to another company to do a CST-CV adapter (this is allowed under their contract), I am available to assist in that effort.

Would love it if you tried check valve taps on gravity lines. Cornell has done some work on this and found that CV adapters do provide some benefit on gravity systems. Check with Steve Childs for more information.

make clear checkvavles so we can see them work! i like watching sap move That is up to Leader Evaporator to decide. Making spouts out of polystyrene is more expensive and difficult, with far more manufacturing flaws. Cost is likely higher due to longer cycle time (fewer parts made per unit time.

keep improving tubing technickes That's the plan. We already have filed 3 new patents that are still in the final testing phases. You'll hear more about these over the next couple of years.

We are very interested in the research being done with laterals and drop lines (ie running 1/2" or 3/4" lines as laterals and saddling each drop - thereby making more vacuum capacity available for each tap hole. We are setting up another 8,000 taps this year and are quite interested in what the University learned in its research test of this set-up. (2) With the advent of high vacuum in the industry - our seasons no longer seem to end because the sap stops running - but rather, we can no longer boil the sap. It gets ropey, doesn't move in the pan, etc. For the last 3 years, we've had to dump sap - and that has been our indication of the season being done. Would be great to understand possibilities in this area. (3) We have seen quite a few different research programs coming out of Canada looking at expanding the market of maple. For example, they've been studying how to maple syrup that has a low glycemic index for diabetics - or how to re-claim the R/O water and market. We are specifically interested in the water piece. We all know that maple has good nutritional qualities with manganese and zinc - but thats not why people buy it. So the question is what would happen to the maple composition if these minerals were removed from the maple product and added back into the water the R/O already removed? If the maple flavor, composition, etc. remained consistent with what you have today, then the healthy minerals could be added back to the water - giving the water substantial value proposition to the market: The world's only tree filtered water, organically created on the North American continent only during a 4-6 week window in spring - AND its good for you (manganese & zinc). We are excited about all the research being done on the production side - and are equally as excited to see more on the actual market expansion side as well. We are continuing work on various ways to improve sap production. We currently are not investigating "health" aspects of maple directly, but may in the future depending upon funding. Whether one can sell RO water as "maple water" depends largely upon what regulators say.

I would like to see some studies done on Sugar sands maybe some have been done but if not i would like to see one done about the affects of frost and sugar sands i notice that when there is no frost in the ground the sugar sand is abundent but when the grounds is frozen there is little to none. We have done a survey of the composition of sugar sand. It doesn't specifically answer this question -- a difficult one to work on -- but it will improve the knowledge of the composition of sugar sand/nitre.

Would vacuum on our pans actually increase our boil rate drastically? Perhaps somewhat. Lowering the vapor pressure above the liquid using vacuum would decrease the boiling temperature and thus the amount of energy (heat) required to get a boil. The rate is probably more dependant upon the surface area for the water to evaporate from.

the fingers that hold the ball need to be a easier fit when joining them to a stubby. they catch and break the fingers that hold the ball and the ball falls on the ground or gets sucked into lateral lines. Not really a research question....more of an issue for Leader to address....and they have. The new version of the CV adapter has some slight improvements to the geometry to keep the ball in place, and to the composition of the nylon to keep it from breaking (without the need for water curing). Additionally, I believe some changes are in the works for the stubby to make it less likely that it will catch on the CV "fingers" and thereby greatly reduce breakage.

cheaper, reliable releaser If you find one....let me know so I can get my order in.

What is the effect on the tree of sap collection systems that remove more sap. At what point does it effect the health of the tree? Good question. To the best of our knowledge, we "believe" that there is no detrimental impact of current high yield sap collection unless you tap small trees (under 6" dbh). Dr. Abby van den Berg at UVM PMRC just got grant funding to start a 2-yr project aimed at answering this question more precisely.

Why sugar content varies year to year. What affects sugar content. My sugar content averaged 1.3% this year and was 1.2% last year. I'd like to know if it's tree genetics, weather, or something else. Thanks Basically the answer is genetics=yes, weather=yes, something else=yes. Very complex question, with a lot of information available, but not all answers are in. The widespread use of RO has made research on sugar content of individual trees much less attractive to funding agencies and scientists.

I am hoping research was done with cv's on gravity so I can compare my results. See above answer on Cornell Univ research.

A better locking system for the CV and stubby. See above answer about changes to CV and stubby.

[DrTimPerkins]

PART 2

Just keep doing what your doing. If there is a way to make the check valve spouts cheaper and better that would be great. We had a bit of an issue with a few spouts cracking and breaking, but percentage wise it would be a fraction of a percent. Perhaps you might look at differnt materials. Thanks for the comment. There are already changes in the works for both the CV adapter and stubby.

I for one would like to know more about leaving mainline and laterals out in the sugarbush year after year, it seems when a complete new system is installed, the first year is pristine, its all "down hill " from there the sap quality gets worse no matter how much in the woods sanitation is tried. We've done a lot of work on this, and will continue doing more. Basically sap yield will drop each year of use, to the point where it yields about 50% of maximum yield after 10 yrs time. You can never make an old system perform like new, but using CV spouts, new adapters, new drops, you can make them perform better. How much better depends on a lot of things, some of which we're still figuring out.

Some questions... What conditions negatively affect the proper function of the CV spouts? What are the ideal operating conditions for the CV spout? # vacuum, time of season, etc. If producers steralize and reuse the present cv spouts how much production will they loose vs using new each year? If a different material was used could the spouts cost effectively be cleaned and reused? Sorry....you've exceeded the maximum number of questions allowed. :) The real answer is...we don't know all the answers. The CV adapter is pretty new. We've had 3 seasons with it (1 yr with a prototype, 2 yrs with product), and we're still learning. What we do know is that no matter what you do you can't clean (notice I didn't say "sterilize") adapters to the point where they'll perform as good as a brand new one. For the small cost, it is worth the expense to put in a new piece of plastic each year.

Found them to be very sharp on your hands when being removed. Need to find a better way of holding ball in adapter. Changes being made to geometry to keep ball in adapter.

1.Clean vs not clean sap lines. ie: water cleaned lines end up with green algae vs vinegary sap without algae. 2.Effect of tree gases on vacuum. I had low vacuum at end of season with little sap and lots of gas. 3.Reason for low sugar content this year. Tubing systems show reduced yields over time due to microbial contamination. Cleaning will slow the process, but not stop it. We are looking at how much gas a tree produces under vacuum (not an easy question to answer). See answer above about sugar content.

I would like to see some studies with washing the line with the tap still in the tree on a check valve system and a study on the pressure load of the system by pressurizing the system and seeing at what pressure the check valve or the connection between the check valve and stubbie adapter failed and came apart. Thanks For Listening Using a CV prevents the water/solution from being pushed out. You need to pull the CV adapters to pressure wash, but can suck a solution down OK. Not sure why it matters at what point the CV or other adapter and stubby fail....more of a "field" issue than a research issue. If you put enough pressure on the system, something will fail somewhere.

RO for small producers. A couple of companies now make RO units aimed at the small producer.

comparison of vacuum pumps. LR, vane, water, oil cooled. See which one maintains high vacuum best as leaks develop. effect of high vacuum on small trees. This is easily looked up in the specs of the pumps....basically you just have to do a lot of homework. We've tried a number of pumps, and do like the liquid ring pumps, especially when used with a variable speed controller (saves a little energy, but more importantly, let's you know about the size of the leaks in the woods quite effectively. We did a study on effects of high vacuum. No discernible impact on the tree other than more sap is extracted.

check spouts need work. we had a bad season & had balls sucked down lateral to totally stop flow of sap. Don't know how for how long & how much sap we lost due to plugged laterals. This could happen if the "fingers" broke. These are not the typical spout. You need to take some care putting them in to avoid breakage-related issue. However, Leader Evaporator has made several improvements to the CV spout adapter that should greatly reduce the incidence of breakage and ball loss.

get them so they separate from the stubby easier If they come apart easily, they will seperate during the season (very bad). There are now tools made to help seperate the two part spouts. Also, you shouldn't pound them in too much when the stubby is mated to the adapter.

-effects of larger diameter tree to tree tubing, that allows sap to break inside line and flow, therefore transferring vacuum to each tap hole more effectively. We have been doing research on this for the past several years, and will continue to do more. You'll hear about it more in the future for sure.

Test niter levels in red maples vs sugar. maples from same bush Consumer taste test on RO syrup low conc, high conc and no ro syrup We've not done the comparison of red vs sugar maple niter....mainly because we haven't been asked about it much (we can't do everything). We have done a taste testing of sap, vs RO, vs high RO. No differences detected by the taste panel. That research is being written up for publication.

Do science not promotion Thank you for the comment. I assume you refer to my presentations about the CV spout adapter. The short answer is that when we find a product that tends to work well and provides an economic benefit to producers....we do tell them about it....whether it is something we've come up with, or another company has come up with.

I'd like to know if there are any means to extending early sap runs by doing things like making artificial snow and creating a deep snow pack in a sugar bush. Southern New England does not usually see more than a foot or two on the ground come March so I wonder if you could simulate more northern conditions with artificial snow. Not likely to work out economically.

Performance at different vacuum levels. Also turning vacuum on and off during warm period, how will it affect the performance. We are prone to extended periods of warm weather in Ohio. We have looked at yield under various vacuum levels. http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc/vacsap.pdf In terms of turning vacuum off/on during the season....don't. As long as you are getting some sap from the trees under vacuum, keep the pumps on.

[tuckermtn]

thanks for all the responses- one question- what is a CST referred to in the first question?

[DrTimPerkins]

thanks for all the responses- one question- what is a CST referred to in the first question?

CST = Clear Straight-Through spout

[Jeff E]

Dr Perkins, CDL is marketing a electronic device for chainging the properties of minerals in sap to make them not bond with the pan surfaces, similar to the water descalers being sold to replace water softeners.

Any research done on this for effectiveness, syrup quality?

[SilverLeaf]

RO for small producers. A couple of companies now make RO units aimed at the small producer.


Do you know offhand the names of those companies?

[DrTimPerkins]

Dr Perkins, CDL is marketing a electronic device for chainging the properties of minerals in sap to make them not bond with the pan surfaces, similar to the water descalers being sold to replace water softeners.

Any research done on this for effectiveness, syrup quality?

I believe you're referring to the "ANTI-NITER DEVICE TECHNO-CALK" http://www.cdl-dallaire.com/index.php?module=document&action=view&id=16

I would assume that CDL has done research on these, but I've not seen any (and to be very fair, I've not I requested any either). I don't know what the technology being used in the CDL device is, so can't speak to that unit specifically. However, the advertisement on the website sounds (to me) like a description of a "water ionizer" that is simply being used for sap.

The concept of water ionization has been around for a long-time, but is (in my professional opinion) largely pseudo-science. It is kind of like putting a magnet on the gas line of your car to align the molecules for better gasoline efficiency or putting a magnet on your wrist to make your arthritus better. Ionization can slightly acidify the water on one pole (cathode) of the device and makes the other end (anode) slightly more alkaline. Supposedly, alkaline water is said to be "miraculously" better for you. However, if these two streams of water are not kept separated, the water will almost instantly recombine a very short distance from the electrical field, meaning that what comes out of the unit is the same thing that went in. If you Google "water ionizer" you'll see that these things supposedly cure ulcers, diabetes, are better at hydrating you, kill microrganisms, etc. It'll pretty much solve every that ails you but world peace and your tax bill. The only thing they've been proven to do is lighten your wallet.

A typical residential water softener works by exchanging one type of ion for another, generally it replaces calcium/magnesium (lime/scale) with sodium or potassium (salt). These do actually work to make the water feel "softer", reduce scale formation in pipes, and increase the solubility/usability of soaps. These types of units do work, and there is a good reason they do chemically.

The actual process of scale/niter formation in maple processing is one of solubility. As you increase the "salt" concentration (yes, that sounds odd, but chemists refer to most things that are dissolved in solution as salts) through evaporation, eventually you reach the saturation point and something has to come out of solution (precipitate). In the case of sap, what comes out is primarily calcium malate (from calcium and malic acid in sap) along with entrained sugars and other stuff that make up niter/sugar sand (more info on the chemistry of scale/niter/sugar sand is in Table A2.6 of the North American Maple Producers Manual). The process of scale formation itself is pretty simple chemically, but it is a problem that is not easily corrected. That is also the case with many industries. Most other industries can just throw chemicals at it to prevent it from forming in the first place, or like the maple industry, they do a lot of cleaning to get rid of it, frequently using strong acids.

Now again....to be very fair, I'm not familiar with the actual device being marketed, and it might be that the CDL unit uses an entirely different process so that none of the above actually pertains to that device. If you're interested, you should ask them to explain how it works and do your own homework. I do know that Darveau (H2O Innovations) carried a similar unit about 5-6 yrs ago, but not sure how many he actually sold.

Beyond the question of whether or not it works , a seemingly more important question (at least to me) is, if it does work, would such a device actually be legal to use. Technically you are not supposed to do much to sap before/during/after processing (other than UV light exposure, filtering, or RO and evaporation) that might affect its chemistry. Under most current maple regulations such a process, unless given an exemption, might actually be considered adulteration.

[jason grossman]

Dr. Perkins, i would like to respond to one of your answers on the question of tubing life and that sanitizing in the woods doesn't matter, because you loose 50% of your production in ten years. I have a lot of first hand experience with many, many producers everywhere. I am aware of quite a few producers who are very proactive and have systems over ten years old and still produce the same amount after ten years as the did the first year! not a small 1 or 2 lbs per tap but in the 5 to 7 lbs per tap range. I think there is just not enough education on proper maintenance of a good system when it is installed correctly! i think you will find in the future that these systems when maintained properly will out produce published expectations.

[Beweller]

Regarding niter: In the Producer's Manual Table A2.4 has serious problems. Is Table A2.6 free of such problems?

[DrTimPerkins]

Regarding niter: In the Producer's Manual Table A2.4 has serious problems. Is Table A2.6 free of such problems?

The formatting of Table A2.4 is obviously incorrect, but it isn't that hard to follow. All but the first column in the lower section on "Individual Acids..." needs to be shifted to the right one space. The numbers listed there are all correct in that they follow the original document.

Table A2.6 is free of formatting errors, although the research it was based upon is fairly old. We expect to have a new publication on the inorganic composition of nitre/sugar sand out within the next year or so.

[DrTimPerkins]

Dr. Perkins, i would like to respond to one of your answers on the question of tubing life and that sanitizing in the woods doesn't matter, because you loose 50% of your production in ten years. I have a lot of first hand experience with many, many producers everywhere. I am aware of quite a few producers who are very proactive and have systems over ten years old and still produce the same amount after ten years as the did the first year! not a small 1 or 2 lbs per tap but in the 5 to 7 lbs per tap range. I think there is just not enough education on proper maintenance of a good system when it is installed correctly! i think you will find in the future that these systems when maintained properly will out produce published expectations.

Hi Jason,

Obviously a great number of factors affect sap production in tubing systems under vacuum. Anecdotally, having spoken with thousands of producers, and having read all the research on the subject, it is quite typical for production in a brand-new system to produce quite well the first year, slightly less the following year, and then slowly decreasing yields over time. In highly controlled tests, with adequate controls (comparing to NEW systems) to account for annual variation, that are statistically replicated, we have documented a very steady decline in production. I don't dispute that producers can continue to make good amounts of syrup even on an old system, or that the rate of decline can vary given different management (cleaning) regimes, however the POTENTIAL is that they would make considerably more with the identical system that is brand-new. If this were not the case, then why would people see increases in sap volume when using new spouts, or when changing to new droplines. A new system with good vacuum and decent trees can easily produce 30-35+ gal sap/tap (7-9# sugar) the first year. If production then drops to 5#, they are making 29-55% less than they COULD in the first season. What I'm saying is that there is the POTENTIAL to make that 7-9# of syrup EVERY year if the tubing were not contaminated. We've seen this in our research, we've seen it in our own sugarbush, and we've heard it from innumerable producers.

I am quite convinced, and the evidence is quite clear, that tubing system do experience a decline in yield over time, that it is related to microbial contamination of tubing systems (and tapholes), but fortunately, this decline is manageable to a certain extent.

If you truly believe what you've said, you would not replace a single dropline, or a single spout, or use annually replaceable spouts?

[jason grossman]

Dr. Perkins,
I DO believe what i have said!!!! I think the biggest problems today are education and use of cheap tubing materials and lack of cleaning. I do not know proctors daily procedures with experiments but do you guys walk the lines for leaks and sagging lines each day during season or clean lines afterwards for the next year.
I do not change drops, or spouts or use replaceables. I only change drops when there has been animal damage. My tubing is high quality and i keep it clean. My spouts are stainless and are cleaned right after they are pulled. I use them because the provied me a perfectly round tap each year, as you know reused plastic will not seat correctly and cause leaks. I do not doubt that there could be some microbes in my system, however I manage them, and in a year that was published to be the "worst ever" in ohio I still did and average to good crop! we boiled 19 days in the 29 days of our season. Like I said before I know a few producers who are proactive and did just as good with older systems around the states. I by know means know it all but i have seen a lot of what works and what does not and I can for sure tell you that syrup is made in the woods and not the sugar house!!!!

Jason

[PATheron]

Jason- Ive seen the pics of your setup and its very nice. How did you guys end up doing for averages last year if you dont mind me asking? We had a terreble year here too last year with very few freezes. We worked very hard to make our syrup with very low sugar and very warm temps. We ended up doing a quart. I thought we did pretty good considering the weather. Im continuously trying to upgrade my setup and like hearing about what everyone else is doing. Dr. Perkins- Do you think that the reason that there is such a decline in most tubing systems over a few years is more of a contamination problem or a general lack of maintenance with loose fittings, sagging lines, etc that happens over time reducing the effectiveness of the vacuum system and the amount of vac to the tree? I always kind of thought that that was the biggest problem that most guys have a hard time keeping an older system tight. Just wondered which problem you consider to be a larger factor in the decrease in sap. Theron

[farmall h]

Theron, I feel it is all about the squirrel chew and hedge hogs biting the tubing! I bet I used over 6 rolls of eectrical tape as I checked the lines this season. Darn things even nibbled on the newly installed tubing...go figure.:mad:

[DrTimPerkins]

Dr. Perkins- Do you think that the reason that there is such a decline in most tubing systems over a few years is more of a contamination problem or a general lack of maintenance with loose fittings, sagging lines, etc that happens over time reducing the effectiveness of the vacuum system and the amount of vac to the tree?

We strive quite hard to be sure that it is NOT a lack of maintenance. All of our lines are checked very frequently before and during the season. All our lines for any experiment are on the same vacuum system, and they are all pulling the same level of vacuum in the woods.


I do not know proctors daily procedures with experiments but do you guys walk the lines for leaks and sagging lines each day during season or clean lines afterwards for the next year.

Lines are checked frequently throughout the season, and we take care to check ALL lines, not just those that we suspect are leaking. That ensures that the treatments are equal. One problem most people have is they can't really compare yields from year-to-year. We overcome this problem by having one section of woods we retube EVERY year (all lateral lines, tees, drops, spouts). That tells us the MAXIMUM level of production for any particular year, so we can compare how other treatments produce in relation to that. In terms of cleaning, all treatments within one experiment are cleaned the same way, so cleaning is not what is differences we observe.

I have no doubts that you, or others can produce what is considered excellent yields from year-to-year. We've produced over 0.5 gal syrup/tap each year for 7 yrs on the same system without retubing. What I am saying is that you COULD make more, up to 0.7-0.8+ gal/tap if you had new tubing and a good vacuum system.....at least the first year. After that production drops a little each year....not real noticeable given the year-to-year variation, but it is real.

[PATheron]

I cant tell in the field whats going on like you guys can at your center becouse I have nothing to compare my results too year to year like you say. All I can do is just try to improve my setup all the time on what everyone finds to be helpfull. Theres one thing about the bacteria that I dont understand. Ive never cleaned any of my tubing just becouse its such a job to do and Im always working on other things. I have to work all the time on my stuff just to make it happen with the number of taps I run on the side plus working full time. The last three years Ive tapped in january and finished in April so my taps run a long time. I do run new spouts every year and leave the vac on all season. My holes seem to stay open a long time if I didnt have the bacteria in my system would I get more sap? Maybe the last weeks of the season Im not getting as much sap as I would if I had new drops or the check valves? Im kind of confused becouse my stuff does seem to run forever Im just wondering if maybe the bacteria is causing me to get less sap in the latter part of the season. Ill be honest my problem is just keeping my tubing as good as the year before. I have tons of squirrell chews and that sort of thing too. Theron

[jason grossman]

theron, to answer your question as easily as possible. i live in the woods!! during sugar season i hate to boil or be in the sugar house. i check all lines every day and fix leaks and problems. when i don't find any i look harder!! i spend a lot of time in the woods in the off season also. we did 5.35 lbs per tap, with 17"hg and a rotary vane dairy pump!!!! this year that will change as we go deep vacuum 28.99"hg with a two stage 5hp 3 ph sihi , with a variable speed drive. so if the season is good we will be close to a 11lbs for a new average. Also to interject my 2 cents again i think the biggest problem is lack of maintenance and education ( which includes cleaning lines).

[lew]

Jason,

If proper maintenance and education is the problem, what may I ask is your cleaning routine? You've mentioned that you walk your lines daily checking for leaks and sags, etc. But what is your cleaning routine? We clean with compressed air and water as soon as possible at the end of season. We do it as soon as possible not to just get the tubing clean, but more to beat the blackflies hatching.

[PATheron]

Jason- I know Im not staying on top of my lines like I should during season. Im loosing a lot of production do to that. I try to do the best I can but once we start getting a lot of sap in March I cant keep up with the woods becouse dad and I are so busy in the sugarhouse. That should change this year with my new evaperator. I should be able to keep up much better with the thunderbolt with very little time boiling. Im hoping that will let me do a far better job in the woods. Last year we did around 1400 gallons on a 3 by 10 evaperator and that takes some time in the sugarhouse. Thats pretty interesting you did that good last year on so low vacuum. That does show what can be done just having everything perfect. Theron

[DrTimPerkins]

this year that will change as we go deep vacuum 28.99"hg with a two stage 5hp 3 ph sihi , with a variable speed drive. so if the season is good we will be close to a 11lbs for a new average. i think the biggest problem is lack of maintenance and education ( which includes cleaning lines).

Jason,

You should definitely get a good boost in production. Doubtful you'll get to 28.99", but best of luck and interested in what you find. You may see that finding leaks above 23-24" of vacuum is very different than finding leaks at 17" vacuum. Things that worked great at 17" are disasters at high vacuum levels. You'll definitely start to see different types of failures of equipment above that level of vacuum as well. The stuff just can't handle the stress for an extended period of use. Some mainline will collapse at very high vacuum on a hot day. We have our mechanical releasers rebuilt every other year to avoid (reduce) problems. Electric releasers also tend to have serious issues at really high vacuum levels.

I too would like to hear about your cleaning regimen. There's been a fair amount of work done on tubing cleaning, but no really clean answers (in my opinion).

[jason grossman]

lew, theron
to answer your questions on cleaning, i wash my lines (air/water) at the end of the season and sometimes during the season if there is a stretch of weather that looks favorable to bacteria( ie heat and sun) as soon as the season is done i waste no time and wash and pull taps. When the bush is done i go through and vacuum down sponges on the mains. amazing how much more crap comes out. then i vacuum down a mix of food grade iso alcohol and water (perferably permeate) then close up for the year! i know it sounds like a lot but i get good results and i boil every drop. i know a few people that still let the first days of the first run hit the ground to "clean the lines" at a dollar a gallon how can you waste sap!!!!! i learned most of that from the canadians, so say what you will about them but they know their stuff and the federation says it is ok for organic so that's go enough for me.If there are other ideas i would like to hear them also. there is always a better way somewhere!!
Dr. perkins, I'll let you know how deep vacuum goes next spring. I build systems for a living and i have never (knock on wood) had any problems with any of them holding 26"hg. it is doubtful to reach a perfect vacuum, but with the pump rated 28.99 i'll get as close as i can. i expect some failures and will be ready for them. my tubing is high quality so i do not expect collapses and i use all stainless fittings so i do not expect leaks like plastic fittings. i also use the highest quality hose clamps on my tubin. Home depot and chinese clamps never hold enough. I look forward to the challange and success!! I know we are limited by the equipment on the market but i think it's getting better and as the push to deep vacuum gets bigger the equipment will get better. until then i will go to the edge then back off a little and run there. By the way thanks for joining the site i do appreciate your knowledge and insight on topics.

[DrTimPerkins]

I know we are limited by the equipment on the market but i think it's getting better and as the push to deep vacuum gets bigger the equipment will get better.

Absolutely. It has certainly improved in major ways over the past 15 yrs, and even within the past 5 yrs.


thanks for joining the site i do appreciate your knowledge and insight on topics.

Happy to be here and provide input where I can, and to learn from others when I can't.

[PATheron]

Jason- Im not sure what your weather was where you are last spring but ours was very warm without freezes. Im really surprised you were able to hit those averages with your vac level. I try run around 25" of vac and I kind of thought that was the only reason I would still get sap day after day even after a week and a half of no freezes. I didnt think that 17" would keep it running in those conditions. Were you getting better weather than we were or were your taps performing like that too? Theron

[jason grossman]

Theron, We had the same weather as everyone else. when we tapped we had a 4 foot snow pac on, it held the runs down except for the 4 or so hours during the middle day when the sun came out. The snow was around for a week or so then it all melted. then it was warm with very little precip(snow or rain) for the rest of the season. I think we do good every year because of our location, elevation, and flat out desire to make syrup! this year we did a lot better than every one else because i tapped early( but i still missed one good run in feb.) walk the tubing and fix problems all the time and i did not shut the vac pump off! literally it ran for the last 18 days of the season non stop. so i was getting every drop i could, don't believe everything you hear about burning up vane pumps!, ours is a tank! So the biggest thing i learned this year is that the 30 extra dollars it cost to run the pump that long was well worth it! If you have pumps on electric they should never shut off except for deep freezes. but next year with the 3 ph variable speed drive motor on the new sihi it will run all season long! Jason

[PATheron]

Jason- That must be the trick just not shutting them off. I had a dairy pump on 400 taps and it didnt do so good but it has a gas engine and it does go on and off plus half of those taps are on a two pipe ladder. It kind of was the best I could come up with last year for those so it was what it was. I ran a deleval 75 on them and I could keep over 20 but with the gas its more of a pain. You will get huge numbers next year if your doing that good of a job with 17". If your running, I assume a 30 cfm ring pump on 800 taps you will be able to have drops off everywhere and youll get more sap than you did last year. My first year I had a 60 cfm pump on 1500 taps and we came down out of the woods when we were tapping and there were drops off all over the place and we still had 15". With those high 20 numbers if its over freezing its going to be running like heck. Freezes arent even necessary. Be honest with you last year I kind of liked not having all the hastle of things freezing up. Do get a lot more sap with the right temps though. Its a lot harder to get the big avgs with a lot of taps. I have 4 releasers running all the time plus the 400 on the dairy pump you have to run gas to. Its pretty hectic. We truck home 2000 taps worth too. Last year was the first we had 5000 and it was a pathetic year so I would say if we get a good one were going to be busy. Im working in the woods right now seven days a week getting ready. Plus the shed is being totally revamped to accomidate the new evap. Nice thing is when the sap starts running were going to kick on both machines, work up a batch and fire up the rig for one to two hours and done. Thats going to be way easier then before. Im hoping we can do a 55 gallon drum per hour. Theron

[Homestead Maple]

Absolutely. It has certainly improved in major ways over the past 15 yrs, and even within the past 5 yrs.



Happy to be here and provide input where I can, and to learn from others when I can't.

I wish you could have had more time to tell us about what you are researching at Proctor when you were at the NH Maple Producers meeting Saturday. You have so many interesting things to talk about and you do a fantastic job of presenting your research. You hit upon a few things about vacuum and it would be interesting to learn more. Thanks for your talk Saturday.

[DrTimPerkins]

I wish you could have had more time to tell us about what you are researching at Proctor when you were at the NH Maple Producers meeting Saturday. You have so many interesting things to talk about and you do a fantastic job of presenting your research. You hit upon a few things about vacuum and it would be interesting to learn more. Thanks for your talk Saturday.

You're welcome. Glad to come over, present our work, and chat a bit with producers. It's always hard to try to fit everything in during the time given (I was told 45 min). Thanks for the comments.