How far is 2 far

[steve J]

I am getting ready to re do my lines and to expand from 60 to 150 on lines. My question is what about the one or two orphane trees that are 75 to 100 feet from a lateral is it productive to tap these and run a joining lateral so far?

Not knowing the answer to that question I have a second question what if its a group of 8 to 10 trees with a 75 to 100 foot break before the next group of trees? Also some of the trees in this group are slightly over a rise in the land my thought was to tap the ones over the rise higher up to compensate fore the rise does this make sense?

[Haynes Forest Products]

Well if you dont use tubing are you going to use buckets? Do you have vacuum? you say over the rise or do you meen on the other side of the rise and how much? If its a small rise tap them high and let the tube sit on top of the rise. Something is better than nothing:lol:

[Thad Blaisdell]

Just figure in how much it is going to cost to tap the tree. 100 ft is 1/5 of a roll of tubing. At $40 per roll that tree is going to cost $8 in tubing. If that sounds like too much money then its to far.

[maple flats]

Tapping higher IS what I do on one of my bushes. The mainline circles a rise and that line is 500' long. From near the far end of the main I have some laterals that climb high enough that the highest few are between 10 and 13' above the ground and I tap using an ext. ladder. When I add vac on this bush all will be at a level I can tap from the ground and I will use sap ladders, but that is 2-3 years away. I am just adding vac on my biggest bush next year and adding another 200-225 roadside gravity taps next year and adding an RO the year after. If in there i can do vac on this smaller bush (180) taps I will as I have bought a vac pump for it already but no releaser yet.

[steve J]

These lines will be gravity and most on the side of a steep hill. But once you hit the top of the steep it flattens a bit then a small rise with flat area on the back side of the rise. The reason I asked about orphan trees was I was not sure rather there be nough gravity pull for just a couple trees over that distance. And because of the steep of this hill and our normally high snow depth I will not use buckets on those trees.

[SapZilla]

On a warm spring day I would consider the sap coming from such a distance through a piece of tubing by itself to be spoiled by the time it reach it's destination. Put them on sealed pails with a dropline going to them. You should be walking that bush once a day anyway, may as well carry a container of sap with you.

[maple flats]

If you can get at least 2% slope (2 ft / 100) it will flow, more is better. The next point to consider is how many taps would be on this line? If too few the sap can actually start to spoil in the line. If you can get 6 or 7 taps you will have a faster flow and be better off. More than that on a slight slope would not be good either. What size are these orphane trees? if too small to get at least 4 taps I would tend to say no on the flat slope. On the other hand if they are big trees then yes.

[red maples]

I got some high taps too just need a ladder!!! but sap ladders will fix that this year!!!:) if you have vac...no problem less rise is OK. remember to leave no maple behind!!! but maple flats says it all!!!

[steve J]

Another question I have a section of woods that is not tied to my main sugaring area. This section will have about 25 taps running down a good steep about 100 feet or so. In the past I have had only about 12 taps and a collection barrel in this area. I would transfer the sap to 6 gallons water jugs and carry it back to the sugar house. The last tap is about 125 feet from my driveway. If I ran a 3/4 line up to that tap would that distance of main line negate the gravity vaccume I may have built up?

[Haynes Forest Products]

The only way you can get and maintain vacuum is with a full line of liquid. I dont think you will be able to maintain the vacuum in the line BUT if you run 2 lines with 12 each for about 50ft then you will maintain the vacuum and then it can gravity the rest of the way in the 3/4. You could also use 1/2 and save money. You can still convert over to vacuum and keep the 1/2" later on.

[PerryW]

If I ran a 3/4 line up to that tap would that distance of main line negate the gravity vaccume I may have built up?

If I understand you correctly, you are talking about installing a 3/4" mainline to replace the last 125 feet of 5/16" because you will now have 25 taps instead of 12 taps

Personally, I wouldn't bother using mainline for 25 or 30 gravity taps. I think the 5/16 line will produce some natural vacuum and the 3/4" would not and there will not be enough sap flow to overload the 5/16" line.

[steve J]

Ok to make the natural gravity work well the key is not only to have your 5/16 full but to have the main line full also? If that is the case then in the area were the bulk of my lines will be I must be carfull not to have to great a pitch of the main line coming into the holding tank because if I do that line will never be close to full . Is that correct?

[Haynes Forest Products]

yes and you dont want it to be a restriction either so having a NEAR level line so its full of sap will stop the sap flow from the 5/16s stopping the natural vacuum. All it takes is one air bubble to travel up the line and it will stop the vacuum effect. If you have ever siphoned water with a hose you know that if the line is to level and doesnt have a certain differential from intake to the discharge it peaters out and stops flowing.

[steve J]

Ok this is all starting to make sense as to why I have had flow issues. My current set up had plenty of pitch on the laterals although not enough taps per lateral and lines were long. but the Main line I had was only 60 ft in length and pitched steeply down hill to holding tank.

My new set up calls for the main line to be closer to 200 feet running horizontal to the base of the steep but I think the last 30 feet or so might pitch pretty good so I need to figure out how to take some of that pitch out of it. If I position the horizontal poly holding tank back away from sugar house 30 feet or so I can probably tame the pitch. These tanks typically have a ball valve faucet on the bottom made our of pvc. Is it possible to attach piping to that faucet and run it stright into the shack with another ball valve faucet on the end?

[maple flats]

Main line (and branch lines should be ideally 3-4% garde or 3-4 ft drop per 100ft run. On the other hand, latterals should be as steep as you can get them with the terrain you are working with and by raising the end taps if necessary. Avoid dips and high spots on either, constant pitch where practical. Latterals often vary in pitch to follow the land but never have ups and downs.

[Haynes Forest Products]

I assume that you will be elevating the bulk tank to get less angle from the woods and to keep it higher than the evap??? If thats the case your doing what alot of people are doing getting away from the small head tanks in the shack. Just make sure the float in the box can hold the pressure. Remember that the diameter of the pipe doesnt control PSI only flow rate. Yes when the evap is calling for a constant flow a ball valve can help restrict the FLOW helping with the pressure BUT only under demand conditions not in the closed setting.

[mapleack]

Steve, unless you have too many taps for the size, you cannot have too steep of a mainline. Yes if you have alot of taps on it , and vacuum, full pipe surging can become an issue. If you're only talking a 100 gravity taps then let it rip down the hill. Something you also must consider with putting your holding tank (head tank) away from the sugar house is that you're going to have problems with the line from it to the sugar house freezing because it will be full of sap. If the tank is inside, with a short line to feed the evaporator you'll skip those freezing issues. My two cents.

[steve J]

Right now I am working out of a 10x12 shack so having the main tank inside is not possible. But if I can get these lines to run the way I am told they should run I will probably have way more sap then I can handle and if that is the case then I will sell this new 2x4 with blower after the season up grade to bigger evaporator and build a good size shack on a slab. But I don't want to spend that kind of money until I can prove to my self that I can get the sap to run thru the lines effectively.

On these poly tanks how are you plumbing the lines from the ball valve to the sugar house. Are you using plastic pipe or are you putting a reduce on the faucet and useing water line to the shack?

[Haynes Forest Products]

As far as plumbing the tank I use copper and others use PVC black poly or anything that will hold water. I have a small amount of clear hose from HD so I can see the sap is flowing. Its best if you run the PVC from the tank without a ball valve unrestricted into the shack. Freezing is a concern so you dont want a valve outside. a faucet to me is a two valve unit on a sink. Are we talking a single valve like a hose bib?

[steve J]

ok when I said faucet on my 65 gallon tank I have a ball valve and I put an elbow in it so that it made a faucet to draw pails from. What I am think of doing now is buying a either a 125 or a 225 gallon horizontal tank putting it on the bank behind the shack this bank is about 5ft higher then floor if shack and about 5ft in back of shack I could build the tank up a bit higher there and it would come in well above my pre heater.

If I did not have a ball valve there to turn off the sap what would keep that kine going into the shack from freezing and splittingeither outside or inside the shack. ?

[Haynes Forest Products]

Why have 2 valves? you want one by the float so you can stop and start the flow. If you have 2 valves and you are cooking and shut the valve the one on the outside can freeze. After boiling all day my shack will stay warm and thinks dont freeze. PVC valves dont freeze as quick as brass. I would only put as much sap in the over head tank as your going to cook that day for that very reason.

[steve J]

I don't have a float at this point which may be getting added but I have never needed on in the pass and I never seen one work so I have no idea how that hooks up either . I don't liv eup there and often I can only boil every other day So potential freeze up can be an issue.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Thats why you want to have a storage tank without a valve that can freeze and then thaw dumping all your sap. Get yourself a clean pallet tank close the valve when its empty so you dont have sap in the ball valve so it cant freeze and break...........YES ball valves that are closed when they have liquid in them freeze and pop apart. Then transfer your sap into the head tank during the days you boil.

[steve J]

I am sort of surpised about these ball valves freezing and breaking as every maple supplier has these tanks shown in there catalog.

The tractor supply store sells poly stock tanks When this type of tank is used I am guess you cover it with a sheet of ply wood and then use some sort of pump to transfer the sap to a head tank?

[Thad Blaisdell]

The part that freezes and breaks is the ball itself. When the tank is empty the ball closes empty. When you empty part of the tank and close the valve the liquid in the ball can freeze...... and like the Batman cartoon .... Blam.... Pop.... broken valve.

[paul]

I like to drill a hole in the ball so when i close the valve it drains and doesn`t freeze. oh ya drill the hole on the drain side and not the tank side.

[steve J]

I had read About drilling the ball in another post here today. Since you have been drilling the ball have you had one break? I have had a ball valve tank for about 4 years never had an issue and there had been some cold nights. Do they make any other kind of shut off for these tanks?

[Haynes Forest Products]

You can get paddle valves. they dont confine the liquid in a closed area so they dont blow up.......Hard to find and they aint cheap but they do exist.

[steve J]

ah ok that sounds like an alternative now to find them

[Haynes Forest Products]

Ebay under SS valves keep looking.

[steve J]

I just spent the day up at my camp were I sugar and I have run a string line for the main and I don't think I can get this to come in at 4 to 5 percent pitch as there is just to much slope I am probably cloer to 7 or 8 percent will this be a big issue.

[Haynes Forest Products]

I love a good slope. Now I hear that sap running past latterals to fast can cause problems but I say hooy

[steve J]

Ya well i hope you are right with it running like that , I know this I am sure glad I did not wait to winter to figure all this stuff out as it is it will take me well into the fall to get everything done

[steve J]

one last question on valves there are ball valves that I have seen recently that are zinc or brass do these also have the same issue is PVC in terms of freezing and breaking?

[Thad Blaisdell]

If they are brass, make sure they are lead free.....

[Haynes Forest Products]

most ball valves are built the same as far as the liquid being captured in the outside of the ball that can freeze and braeak the valve or when the valve is closed with liquid in it the small amount in the ball will pop the side out.

I wouldnt spend alot of money trying to find lead free ball valves for incedental contact with sap

[steve J]

Well got most my llines in and now down to one last section in this area the hill rise farther back and there are some large maples near the top. But I have seen mention here several times that max length on laterals when using gravity should not be over 100 feet. For me to reach those upper maples it would appear to be 150 to 175 feet. Is it pointless for me to try and tap them?

[Thad Blaisdell]

How many taps are there?..... you say "some"

[DrTimPerkins]

...I have seen mention here several times that max length on laterals when using gravity should not be over 100 feet. For me to reach those upper maples it would appear to be 150 to 175 feet. Is it pointless for me to try and tap them?

Max lateral length on gravity is not a great concern (except the cost of material). In fact, if the sap flows steadily (or even steeply) downhill, it is good to have nice long lines with lots of taps (25-40) per lateral. This will result in the development of a good natural vacuum when the sap runs and higher yields from those taps. It is important in these instances to also have a good tight system with very little leakage in order to see the best results.

If you ever change over to a vacuum pump system, you'll need to reconfigure though.

[steve J]

Ok I should be fine as this is a rather steep hillside and I don't think vaccum will be in my near future