Hauling Concentrate

[Amber Gold]

I'm moving into a new 2000+ tap sugar bush next year that's a 15 min. drive each way...figure 1 hr round trip to haul sap including pumping time. It'll be setup w/ vacuum so I should average 2000 gal per day to transport.

Last night I thought about hauling concentrate. I think the property owner wouldn't mind if I ran an RO at his shop where the storage tank is going to be. He could start the RO sometime in the afternoon and get it concentrated to the mid-teens. I come home, get the truck, pick up the load in a single trip, set the RO on wash cycle, go home and boil. The downside is the RO isn't at the SH, so if I get sap from another location it makes it difficult to get it concentrated. I guess I could get a small RO for the SH, but that's another expense.

Is anybody else hauling concentrate? Are there downsides to it? Is bacterial growth an issue? Thoughts in general?

Thanks

[Maplewalnut]

Josh,

My two cents

Two issues I would worry about. One is just the RO running remotely without supervision. Its one thing to put it on wash after everything is buttoned up and the money product is in the barrel. Its another to have to run and run while concentrating sap.

The other thing is I would be nervous having someone else run my RO especially remotely. The guy maybe a great guy but no one is going to run it and make decisions like you. I'm skeptical by nature but I assume he really has no vested interest in your success and would be doing you a favor by starting it. (When he is home, when he gets to it, etc.)

I would say take as many variables out of the mix this year especially with a new bush. Put in the time yourself and then reevaluate where you can add help or purchase better equipment next year.

As far as hauling you know the drill. If your using totes or plastic you may get a slime layer forming if not rinsed out routinely. Stainless is better at keeping the slime down but a bear to haul full of sap weight wise.

Mike

[Thad Blaisdell]

I agree, I would wait a year. It sounds all good to have someone else turn on the RO for you, but then it needs to be rinsed....... then washed......then rinsed.... You may find that your time is better spent hauling sap.

Another question may be how much sap can you haul? 1000 gallons or 300 gallons? That may make a huge difference in your decision.

[brookledge]

Not a good idea. Too many problems can happen with someone else just starting and walking away. Setting up your other tanks(permiate, concentration) will take up space also.
Keith

[Russell Lampron]

I think it is best to have the RO at your house. Haul with 2 tanks if you can. One in a trailer and one in the back of your truck. That would cut down on the number of trips back and forth.

[Amber Gold]

My truck is rated for 2400+/- lbs in the bed and 16,000 lbs GCWR. I have a F250 5.4L w/ the 3.73 rear axle. So that basically equates to a 325 gal tank in the bed or a 1000 gal tank on an equipment trailer. I'm not sure if it would handle a 1500 gal tank which would put it about 20,000 lbs GCWR. Also wasn't sure what it would be like to haul a vertical 1500 gal tank on a trailer stability wise.

I'm looking at 2 trips per day on average. If I wait till I get home to go pick the load up, I wouldn't start concentrating until about 5pm. I think I'm getting a 500 gph RO, so that would process that sap while I get the second load. I probably wouldn't get all sap at the sugar house until 6pm and that's assuming I can leave work at 3pm every day which may/may not happen. I think I would need to concentrate to the mid-teens to keep boiling times reasonable on 2.5x8, so I'm not sure how long that would take. I'm figuring the evap. wouldn't be fired up until 8pm while the RO is still polishing off the remainder of the sap. If I haul concentrate, I come home w/ sap ready to boil and I'm done by 8-9pm, not just getting things going.

I'm open to suggestions to keep everything going as smoothly as possible.

[maplwrks]

My 2 cents--- I haul my sap 14 miles one way. If it was possible, I would concentrate it on site and truck concentrate. If you have someone who can start the RO, teach them the way you want it run, and go for it. The savings in time and gas will be well worth it.

There are a number of large producers in northern Vt. that truck concentrate by tractor trailers, you shouldn't have any issues with quality, if you give everything a rinse everyday.

[Amber Gold]

Once you've been through running a RO a few times it's pretty simple isn't it? The property owner lives there, the RO would be in his woodworking shop, or just outside, and he's retired. I'd imagine most days he'd be home to start the RO and run wash cycles as needed

If hauling concentrate, how do the logistics work? When you pick up the concentrate, can you set the RO on a wash cycle and drive away? I'm wondering how much babysitting's involved. The property is on my way to/from work so I can check on it in the morning on the way in...basically make sure the wash cycle went OK. Then on the way home, I could check on things, go home pick the truck up, come back pick up concentrate, set a wash cycle and go home. I'm boiling 6-7pm.

Another issue I thought of. If I get sap from another location, it would make it difficult to get it concentrated or it wouldn't get concentrated. There's a lot of roadsides around town I was considering hiring someone to tap and haul those for me. It wouldn't be this year, but maybe next. Maybe the option would be to have the remote RO doing the bulk of the work and a 150 or something at the sugar house...something in the future to consider.

[Homestead Maple]

There isn't any baby sitting to my RO. I bring a load of sap home, (1,000 gals.) off load into a 2,000 gal. feed tank to the RO. Start the RO up and check the concentrate level, if everything is dialed in ok, I head off for another load of sap which is about an hour turn around time, leaving the RO concentrating. There's enough safety features to an RO that you don't have to baby sit them. I wash mine while I'm boiling and when I leave the sugar house for the night I start a rinse when I get ready to leave and let it rinse while I'm sleeping. And a rinse can last for hours if I have upwards of 1,500 gals of permeate. I would think if the person is willing to learn how to run the RO, I would consider hauling concentrate. I'd do an operation like that if I had power at my site.

[MERIDIAN MAPLES]

I'd have to agree with Homestead. Once you've ran a factory RO like a CDL or Lapierre they aren't that difficult. They have shut offs for just about anything that can go wrong, if someone does something wrong. I work full time and cook at night, so I have someone start up my RO before I get off of work so I can start cooking right away. Just make a checklist for the person running it. CDL's operating instructions are listed right on the unit like a checklist. The rinse and wash cycle might take a little more care. Making sure the PH is right. The only thing about having the RO at a different location is that you'll have to wait till everything is run through to take the concentrate to your cooker. I run my concentrate into a larger tank so I don't have to babysit the RO so much. I usually run the RO a couple of hours before I start cooking because I'm buying sap, brushing flues, reversing the evaporator, etc. etc. But having the RO on site I can be using it to its max ability. You do have to babysit them more later in season because the prefilters start to clog up more which lowers you feed pressure. If you don't have enough feed pressure the machine will shut off. I've had that happen a couple of times because I got busy with other things and forgot to check on the machine.

[brookledge]

Josh
A couple of things first of all with tap numbers up to 2,000 or so I'd go with a minumun of a 600 gal expandable RO since you seem to be growing by leaps and bounds. That way when you add more all you need to do is add another collum. Next I still think it is best for you to have the RO at the sugarhouse. I guess I'd be a little nervous to rely on another person who has no direct interest in it. Grant you he is retired but what if he decides after doing it for a while that he doesn't want to be tied to doing it or his life changes for what ever and can't do it.
You are the one that best knows him so you will have to decide that. Another thing is as you continue to expand will you be then trucking sap to the RO anyways?
Good luck
Keith

[Amber Gold]

Keith, things just hit a major speed bump and this isn't going to be an issue any more. More coming in the journal.