Solar Panels

[red maples]

Does anyone have solar panels on their house or sugarhouse. I was just looking into them and I am looking for some feed back.

[Revi]

We have solar hot water and PV solar backup lights at our house. We also drive around in a partially solar powered car we built.

I love the solar thing, but I don't have them at our sugarhouse because we're on the road. If it was back in the woods I'd have a small PV system for sure.

Some friends in Cornville use solar in their sugarhouse. It works fine.

[Revi]

There is money for solar at the sugarhouse with the USDA or the local soil and water conservation. We were going to do it, but we're already hooked up to the grid where we sugar.

Here's the Home Depot installation service:

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ContentView?pn=SV_HS_Solar_Power_Systems&langId=-1&

[maple flats]

I have some solar at my sugarhouse. I started last year, installing 300 watts of panels, 240' from the sugarhouse to catch the sun, installed 2 poles for overhead wires. In the sugarhouse I have a PWM charge regulator, a modified sine wave inverter and a bank of 4 trojan T125 batteries wired in series for 24v. This is just a start. I was able to run the sugarhouse lights (364 watts florescent), and the high pressure blower for about 5-6 hrs in the daylight until the batteries dropped to about 23.5 volts and then I started the generator.
This year I plan to upgrade. I am trying to add 600 watts more in panels, convert the controller to a MPPT controller which gives much higher efficiency and go with a pure sine wave inverter which gives the same wave form the utilities supply. I also plan to add 4 more batteries and will go to 48V from the panels to the sugarhouse for less power loss from line loss.
Please tell me more about USDA or soil and water $ for this.
My eventual plans are to have the whole sugarhouse on solar for everything except my eventual RO. I have a diesel generator and an old gas one. I want to build a gasifier generator to make wood gas to run the gas generator for recharging the battery bank, a technology from the late 1800's that was used to power trucks and cars during WW2 in parts of Europe. I also plan to build a home on the property and have it off the grid. The only thing that might prompt me to tie to the grid is the solar tax incentives that are only available with grid tied and if I supply my excess power to the grid. That incentive may sway me.
My wife and I really want to be independent and away from it. Energy will however cost us more, fuel for the solar is free but the equipment takes a long time to pay back and batteries are needed new every 5-7 years if good flooded lead acid. I am also looking into some other type batteries. One called nickel iron are supposed to last over 50 years, and need an electrolite change about every 15 yrs. They also are not affected radically if totally discharged like lead acid are. But they are very costly up front. This is a battery design by Thomas Edison and some at about 100 yrs are still going strong.

[red maples]

I want to start with a system for the house. I just started looking but NH has a $6000 rebate on installations, and a 30 % tax refund from the IRS. I have to get a home evaluation but if I go with a 4.3 kw system it will support about 1/2 of my electrical needs but these systems are Grid systems no bateries so you can get credit for what is extra but you use it at night when your not making it. I am no electrician so I would have to have some one put it in. the first one I checked on it was in the $20k range. SO I wanna just look for options and stuff.

[maple flats]

My electrical knowledge is only fair. When I was in the furnace business I took residential wiring 1 & 2 from our local BOCES and another course relating to controls. After that I wired a few houses and that was back in the eighties as well as wiring and setting up the controlls for the furnaces we sold. When I came to solar and DC power I had to ask a lot of questions and do a lot of reading. For one thing, DC needs a much different fuse or breaker because if a std AC fuse is used in a dc system, if the fuse or breaker blows the current can jump the gap and keep going. A DC fuse has to have a powder inside that breaks the arc. When that fuse or breaker blew in AC the current switched back and forth 60 times a second. The first switch in the opposite direction stopped the current from arcing the blown fuse or breker. Secondly, is the ground issue, done incorrectly you can electricute someone or fry the system. You either must have only one ground or better yet if it is a system covering a larger area have multiple ground rods but they must all be bonded together with wire of the same guage as the heaviest wire in the system. This gets expensive real fast if it is like my set up where I had to mount the panels 240 away to get the sun, and that wire had to be heavy guage to maintain power without too much line loss. On the other side, the higher the voltage between panels and the other components, the smaller the gauge needed. That it why the high power transmission lines for the grid are rather small compared to what they are carrying, the voltage is very high. Even the last lines before the transformer going to your house are usually in the 13,000 V range, but the transformer steps it down to the 240V you use. AC is dangerous and DC brings in a whole new element just by the nature of DC.

[red maples]

yeah thats why I have to have some else do it.

[Amber Gold]

Putting a new metal roof on the house this year with the intention of putting solar panels on next year. I already have solar hot water.

Possible sources of funding in NH:

30% Tax Credit...supposed to expire this year, but will likely get extended
50% Utility Rebate up to $7500
USDA Energy Efficiency Grant-aside from being used to purchase energy efficiency improvements for farms, it can also be used for renewable energy purchases

The kicker with all of these is you need to front the money. I believe an average grid-tied home system costs about $15k...that's a lot of money to front. Options would be to save for a while or get a short term loan. Loan payment would likely be offset by monthly electric bill savings so you'd break even +/- until the loan's paid off.

It's not cost effective to power a sugar house off solar unless it's your only option. It's only really viable on your residence.

[vtmaplemaker]

I am a strong beleiver in renewable energy, don't get me wrong, but at this point in time the only solar that is ecanomically viable, is solar hydronic systems... PV (photo vitaic) systems, the pay back is about 5 years more then the life span of the system... If you are looking at making your sugaring system more (green) you would be better off investing in high effeciency arches (force 5, or high eff oil), RO's ect... Even with rebates, tax breaks and all, you will never get your money back, unless the going green can increasethe value of your products.

[red maples]

I have the money. my wife needs a new car first So solar panels won't be for at the very least another year probably 2 but I am just looking now I am hoping by then the technology is a little cheaper and more effieciant. And it is for the house not maple shack.

[brookledge]

Ihave talked to my neighbor who installed a system tied to the grid. He was very straight forward with me in saying that he did not do it so save money he did it because that is the way he wants to live. He is one who wants to be green he drives a prius etc. He said based on the amount of $$ he paid to the electric co per month vs the cost of the system minus the rebates and incentives he doubted he would really see a savings. The biggest unknown is whether the pv pannels will last for 40 yrs. I'm hearing the pay back in New England is about 30-40 yrs. Other parts of the country have more sun and better weather and can generate more electricity. New England has about 25% efficiency. Meaning between darkness and cloud or fog cover the panels will generate electricity only 91 total days per yr leaving you 274 to buy it back. Personally I think that when you are generating excess and feeding the grid you should get a better rate than they give you. I was also told you can not have battery storage system and also be hooked to the grid.
Like anything as time goes on the cost will continue to drop on the cost of the systems. So you have to decide yourself when is it worth it to do it.
Keith

[Revi]

I saw some panels from the 1970's which were still workin fine. They were a little discolored, but they seemed to be working at almost the same efficiency as when they were made.

I think they will work for at least 40 years.

The payback may be when the grid goes down and you still have power.

We have a backup light system that is worth it's $1500 price whenever the power goes off and we still are listening to the radio and walking around the house with the LED lights.

Since we use the woodstove for heat and cooking we don't care if the blackout lasts a while.

It is a little wierd being the only one with lights on.

[maple flats]

The first solar panels are still generating electricity, from about 60 yrs ago. Panels generally carry a 20-25 yr performance guarantee, produce at least 80% of new after 25 yrs is common. Some components are shorter lived and most batteries are good 5-10 yrs. If grid tied with no battery BU you need no batteries.
I don't only do it for the savings, but rather the satisfaction I am making my own. Power will cost me more than the grid and I pay up front. But in my old age, my bills will be much lower when it counts the most.

[3rdgen.maple]

Not to throw a monkey wrench into this topic but have any of you considered a residential windmill. I have seen some that the initial cost is 8500 and If i recall correctly winds a 8 mph would produce 400 kw a month. They also can be tied into the grid to eliminate the use of batteries. I know where I live and the most of us wind is more prevailant then the sun.

[maple flats]

yes, I have wind on my future plans too. My problem for that is that my tower would be over the treeline as I am in the woods and there are no hills or valleys to give a multiplier effect of the wind, it would just be what is on the flat. The elevation changes in all dorections is only aboput 6-8' change within over a mile, except one drainage about 1/2 mile away that is lower by about 40'. That won't help. On the other side of the coin, my county is one of the steadiest winds in the state and has some big windfarms in the southern 2/3 of the county, up in the hills to the south. The wind charts show me as very low wind.

[Amber Gold]

Unfortunately in the NE, not many places are suitable for wind power. Actually getting 8mph average wind speed is harder than it sounds.

I think with the rebate programs the payback period isn't too bad and makes it more viable. I also think if you're producing power that you should be getting a better rate, but you're also convenient having a constant power supply right to the house and that comes with a cost, also it would be difficult to monitor without a completely different meter.

I do like the thought of no/low utility bills, but I also like the fact that I'm producing my own power and not relying as much on coal/oil. Also I'd put a few batteries in to have a short-term battery backup to power the essentials.

[TF Maple]

I'm not trying to be a tree hugger but everyone could switch to flourescent or LED lights to save money and electricity right now with no question about whether you will save money or not, because you will.

When I was doing research last year on wind and solar power generation, most companies wanted a house switched over to energy saving lights so the power generated will be more likely to be enough to supply the power the house needs.

I didn't put in any power generating system yet because it is too expensive and the system I really want is still being developed. So instead I'm slowly replacing all the lighting to compact flourescent to save money right now. Then when I put in a power system the house will be ready for it and the power generated will supply a good share of what I use.

[red maples]

As far as windmills go and green enegy for that matter the building and town codes are still being written as we speak. issues are popping up all over especially with wind power beacuse of the size, location, among other things.

There are alot of things that folks can do to cut down on electricity. light bulbs, switching to wood heat, installing a solar clothes dryer (clothes line) alot of the appliances especially the HD tv's drain electricity even when they are turned off.

Pellet stoves really aren't an impact at all they burn clean but there is the same amount of oil products to cut and deliver the wood to the mills, process into pellets packed in plastic(oil product) and delivered to the ware house and then delivered to the store then finally to you, might as well be burning oil. and you still need a small amount of electricity to run the auger and blower.

[maple flats]

TF Maple, I use almost all forescents but sometimes I question how much it saves. I have very poor luck getting a good life in CF lights. I see the hrs life on the pkg but it doesn't seem to happen. That being said, I still use them.

[TF Maple]

TF Maple, I use almost all forescents but sometimes I question how much it saves. I have very poor luck getting a good life in CF lights. I see the hrs life on the pkg but it doesn't seem to happen. That being said, I still use them.

I have the same problem with the life of the Compact Flourescent (CF) bulbs. I think having the bases up, like most of my fixtures are, causes a shorter life. If you read the packages, they are not for base up installations. Probably heats up the bases too much and kills the bulbs.

I have the 2 foot flourescent bulbs in my family room. They are on almost all the time when someone is awake because the room is half underground. They last 5 years or more.

[Amber Gold]

I also have issues with them lasting their design life. When we switched to CFL's, we did notice a drop in our electric bill. Worth the cost in my opinion.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I'm not trying to be a tree hugger but everyone could switch to flourescent or LED lights to save money and electricity right now with no question about whether you will save money or not, because you will.

When I was doing research last year on wind and solar power generation, most companies wanted a house switched over to energy saving lights so the power generated will be more likely to be enough to supply the power the house needs.

I didn't put in any power generating system yet because it is too expensive and the system I really want is still being developed. So instead I'm slowly replacing all the lighting to compact flourescent to save money right now. Then when I put in a power system the house will be ready for it and the power generated will supply a good share of what I use.

I switched nearly every bulb in my house to the "energy savings" bulbs and it is over 20 bulbs and I haven't seen any savings. I am all for being energy conscious and do whatever I can to help by recycling everything I can also but I think these energy saving bulbs are a crock of crap. If they are only using 25% the electricity, I don't see any savings in my bills.

[Revi]

You only use a small amount of energy for lights. The things that really use electricity are the refrigerator and the hot water heater. The savings in switching to CFL's can easily be overwhelmed by using something else.

That's why we always go for the most efficient appliances when we need to get a new one.

The amount you spend on something like a lightbulb is minimal, but it adds up over the long run.

[ennismaple]

I switched nearly every bulb in my house to the "energy savings" bulbs and it is over 20 bulbs and I haven't seen any savings. I am all for being energy conscious and do whatever I can to help by recycling everything I can also but I think these energy saving bulbs are a crock of crap. If they are only using 25% the electricity, I don't see any savings in my bills.

Did you get a flatscreen TV recently? They are energy pigs and computers are not a lot better. Lights are a small portion of your total electricity bill but the small improvements you can make around the house do add up.

[maple flats]

My hot water and fridge will not be electric except a light in the fridge when I go off grid. there are other options and they cost less than it would to genrate enough power to keep a conventional fridge and freezer going. The big one will be AC. In our humidity we can't use a swamp cooler and I don't see ammonia refridgeration in AC units for houses. That might be what is in RV units but likely not the AC. If we go AC we will only be able to run with the diesel genny or my gasifiered one running. WE are building super insulated and it will be much tighter than our current 120+ yr old home plus we will be in the shade some of the morning and full shade from about 11:00 am on. I nor my wife do not do well in the heat at all.

[red maples]

Yeah, there are some big power pigs. the question that I always ask is this.

Is it more of a waste to get rid of something that works good for a new one or keep the old one. I personally think its propaganda

for example.

I drive a chevy tahoe. #1 it paid for...#2 it runs great I do love it, but it is a gas hog and I do need the extra space + as we all know 4wd is a must in northern states.

So if I get some kinda more effiecient vehicle spend say $25-$30K trade in my tahoe. It gets a make over by the car company and resold. its still on the road sucking up gas. and I am out $25K+. But I wil save the Gas.

If we always go new before the old one wears out doesn't that create waste as well?

Like getting a new Frig that is more effiecient, then getting a 50 inch HD LCD Flat screen TV that is an energy pig even though your 29" old TV still works great. (I still have the 29" TV that still works great but I wish it would break already so the wife will let me geta new 50" HD LCD flat screen TV):lol:

[Revi]

I agree, up to a point. It only really makes sense to switch when the old thing is worn out and you need a new one. My gas hog truck hit a hundred thou and I decided to get a much more efficient one. I think it's saved me some money already, but if I ran the old truck until the wheels fell off I probably could have saved more.

I just like to have efficient fairly new things at this stage in my life.

If it pays for itself, I do it. I wish I had waited for cash for clunkers, but I have the most efficient small truck now, and it's paid for.

We use half what we used to for energy, but the price of oil is twice as much, so we are able to keep going on one salary.

Here's what we did. Click on the pics to get more info.

http://www.msad54.org/sahs/appliedarts/artlofving/Energysav/index.htm

[red maples]

I got our wood stove fixed a year after we moved in cost about 500 for new blower, glass, glass frame, handles and some hardware, but once I got it back together took me a few years to fine tune things and we got new windows put in and went from 5-6 tanks of oil per year down to 1-1.5 tank of oil per year. And all the wood I get from our property so it costs the gas for the chain saw and a new chain here and there a new handle for the ax, and maul every few years and thats it.oh yeah and water form me!!!:)

[Revi]

We're in pretty similar situations, Red Maple. We both have the same size and kind of evaporator, same tap count and both of us have cut our energy costs in our houses. I wonder how everyone else does it?

We just went to the farmer's market in our solar car. Then I did some work in the woodlot hauling wood, which I consider another form of solar energy and then I took a shower with water that was heated by the sun.

I figure we save about 10 bucks a day with the things we've done.

It works out to more than $3000 a year. To us that's a lot of money.

[red maples]

to anybody thats alot of money. For me and hopefully for most...It not always about the money. I enjoy living off the fruits of the land so to speak, we live in a modern world (don't get me wrong I like modern gadgets too)that needs to slow down take a step back and look at things from a different perspective. I see so many people are trying to become less dependend on the the other guy providing for us.

More people getting chickens, a goat here and there, just down sizing in general I think its a natural occurance that happens in a down ecconomy but I always felt that way. People just have to become more independent. that can't happen everywhere like cities and the like but little things here can having a garden, tapping your own trees, collecting your own eggs its very rewarding.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Nope, don't have a flatscreen tv. Still have a couple of the old style TV's. One is about 10 years old, and the other 12 and they don't get used that much.

[brookledge]

Getting back to the CFL's. I have basicly been replacing my incadesants with CFLs as they burn out. I have also heard that on the horizon is the phase out of incadesants. Any ways the problem I have with them is that when you turn them on it is not instant light. I takes a few minutes to brighten up. Well when you use them in closets ,pantrys cellars etc you need instant light. I hate to use them in those situations where you only turn on the light for a moment to find something and then close the door and shut the light off. To me there is no savings in those situations. For that reason I hope the incadesant bulb continues. I suppose the other option would be to replace the whole fixture and go with a regular flouresant tube type fixture but then it is adding alot of cost to do so.
Keith

[sapman]

Going back to the independence discussion, it would sure seem (I believe is fact) that the government is totally against it. The more dependent we are on them, the better (I know I'm not saying anything new here). They want power over us. Trying not to be real political. I don't care who's in power. My wife heard on the radio today that they want to force anyone with outdoor wood boilers to get expensive stacks to clean up the exhaust. I've never heard any real science to prove we are running out of oxygen in the world. This is ridiculous! Sure, they can give statistics to say whatever they want. Farm Bureau is leading the opposition to the legislation. I even heard that the health care bill is supposed to eliminate wood burning appliances. I suppose this would apply to evaporators.
Sorry for the rant. If it does seem too political, hopefully a moderator will delete it.

[maple flats]

WOW , if that were true it would change a whole slew of things. I only heat with wood.
Consider the wild fires if no wood were burned. Look at the fossel fuel shortage if renewables were not burned. Consider the people who would freeze with no heat. Somehow with all of the totally foolish laws our Congress passes I still can't believe they would ban ALL wood burning devises! I do however see an Outdoor Wood Boiler ban in the future. They have no clue. These devises can be made to burn extremely clean and efficiently. Gassification seems to be one answer.

[DrTimPerkins]

My wife heard on the radio today that they want to force anyone with outdoor wood boilers to get expensive stacks to clean up the exhaust. I've never heard any real science to prove we are running out of oxygen in the world.

Not sure where you are or where you heard this, but some jurisdictions have or are considering regulations to reduce pollutants coming from outdoor wood boilers. It is not a God-given or Constitutionally protected right that you can pollute the land, water, and air to the detriment of your neighbors. The newer models of outdoor furnaces generally are far cleaner burning. Why spew out a lot of pollution when you can easily fix the issue. The solution is NOT terribly expensive.

The problem typically arises when people put up one of these units in a residential neighborhood. The stack is often not very high, so the ash/soot/smoke doesn't go far, and winds up impacting the neighbors. Again, not a problem as long as you're on and surrounded by plenty of your own land and aren't infringing upon others rights to enjoy their own property. But when your neighbor is 200 ft away....you might have a problem. Kind of like if your neighbor decided to start a car junkyard next door and oil and other auto fluids ran onto your land and made a mess.


I even heard that the health care bill is supposed to eliminate wood burning appliances. I suppose this would apply to evaporators.


No, and no. Just like there are no "Death Panels", there is also nothing in the Health Care Bill (that I'm aware of) that outlaws wood burning appliances or wood-burning maple evaporators.

[red maples]

exactly, they want more wood burning appliances...if not then why are there government incentives for them. The thing with the out door boilers in my opinion is that they are so in-effiecient and they are offensive, and are a big polutant.

Sorry I don't remember his name but the guy that is contracted by lappiere that designed the force 5 is currently working on some of his own stuff including wood boilers but he was discusted when he started looking into the constuction and effiecency of them and the amount of smoke that they emmit.

[sapman]

I'm not fond of the highly polluting boilers either. I've seen the black smoke coming out, and soot dripping off the pipe. And I agree, if it is close quarters to neighbors, probably not a polite thing to have. I highly prefer cleaner burning models. My indoor wood stove is an expensive clean burner. But it's just when it comes to telling people what they can and can't do (provided they are not unreasonable) on the property they pay tax on, that bothers me.

It would seem odd to me, too, that health care would attack wood-burning equipment. But who has read the thousands of pages in it to know what IS in it. There is now a statewide ban on burning trash in NY. Actually, I believe it applies to more than trash, with guidelines as to how many square feet a campfire can be. Fines can be given for breaking this law. How many over-sized campfires would it take to equal one forest fire started by lightning, and all its pollution, or volcano's? It just seems ridiculous. That ban is something that my wife and I are vehemently opposed to, as you can tell!

[allgreenmaple]

They've been burning wood in this country for hundreds of years. & will do so for hundreds more. Someone needs to tell all the tree huggers that the sun is gonna come up tomorrow regardless of whether anyone is burning wood or fossil fuel.