1/2" Laterals & Drops

[saphead]

I've been thinking about what Dr. Tim was talking about @ Bascom's open house,laminar flow in drops and laterals as opposed to "slug flow".I totally agree that when slug flow is observed vacuum is not being transferred to the tree as it is during laminar flow.I believe he mentioned as much as a 10" drop in vacuum during slug flow which makes sense because vacuum doesn't transfer through liquid very well.I may now have a use for all that 1/2"black plastic I've got hanging around!
I'm thinking on doing some testing,1/2" laterals,star fittings,running 2 -5/16" lines to a "Y",min. length of 5/16" nec.,stubby,check valve tap.My hope is that with the very short length of 5/16" ID (Y to the tree) that enough vacuum will still be present to just suck away the sap before a slug can form during heavy flows.
I was thinking of using Lamb blue "Y's" but i don't think that they are made anymore,all "Y's" available now are actually offset Y's having one section straight and another coming in @ an angle.I would rather use a true Y that evenly splits the flow.Does anyone make a true Y anymore?..Y not y
Another problem is is cutting y fittings into the mainline for 1/2" laterals,that sends shivers up my spine!It's going to be a while to convince suppliers to tool up for 1/2'" drops and lat's....more testing & proof will be required.
Comments Dr. T ?

[DrTimPerkins]

I've been thinking about what Dr. Tim was talking about @ Bascom's open house,laminar flow in drops and laterals as opposed to "slug flow".I totally agree that when slug flow is observed vacuum is not being transferred to the tree as it is during laminar flow.I believe he mentioned as much as a 10" drop in vacuum during slug flow which makes sense because vacuum doesn't transfer through liquid very well.I may now have a use for all that 1/2"black plastic I've got hanging around!
I'm thinking on doing some testing,1/2" laterals,star fittings,running 2 -5/16" lines to a "Y",min. length of 5/16" nec.,stubby,check valve tap.My hope is that with the very short length of 5/16" ID (Y to the tree) that enough vacuum will still be present to just suck away the sap before a slug can form during heavy flows.
I was thinking of using Lamb blue "Y's" but i don't think that they are made anymore,all "Y's" available now are actually offset Y's having one section straight and another coming in @ an angle.I would rather use a true Y that evenly splits the flow.Does anyone make a true Y anymore?..Y not y
Another problem is is cutting y fittings into the mainline for 1/2" laterals,that sends shivers up my spine!It's going to be a while to convince suppliers to tool up for 1/2'" drops and lat's....more testing & proof will be required.
Comments Dr. T ?

Hi Folks,

Experimentation is good. Just keep in mind that this work is in the fairly early stages of development. Even if the maple manufacturers pick it up, it will take at least 2-3 years for all the fittings to be developed.

Unfortunately we've found that even with mainline to each tree and a short 5/16" drop does result in a good amount of vacuum loss at times. I'm not advocating that approach. I think 1/2" all the way from the mainline to the spout is what is needed. The problem there is that the proper fittings don't yet exist for the best installation.

We will be conducting a great deal more work on this subject in laboratory tests this summer, and will have a large, full-scale test installed in the woods for next spring.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Dang Dr Perkins we cant keep up. I just found out were killing everyone with our Brass filter pump:-| Please dont tell me your testing Cherry tree shackers for those stubborn trees that dont want to give up the sap;)

[DrTimPerkins]

Dang Dr Perkins we cant keep up. I just found out were killing everyone with our Brass filter pump:-| Please dont tell me your testing Cherry tree shackers for those stubborn trees that dont want to give up the sap;)

Most people here don't know what this is all about. Very briefly, 5/16" lateral line is the largest resistance factor affecting sap yields in current tubing systems. A loss of 2-4" Hg (or 10-20% sap yield) is common, but during peaks flows, a loss up to 10" Hg (50%) is possible. 5/16" line was developed from 1/4" medical/industrial tubing, and functioned well on gravity, when the small diameter of this tubing, long laterals, high number of taps/lateral and modest flow rates allowed for the development of good natural vacuum. Given that we are now using vacuum pumps, the sap/gases that occupy the lateral/drop lines are an impediment to vacuum transfer to the tree. Mathematical calculations and emperical measurements show that we are losing vacuum in the 5/16" lateral/drop lines, basically because the predominant conditions are "slug flow", which is extremely inefficient.

There are several possible ways to address this issue. We have explored (and submited patent applications for) three of the most likely methods.

The one that seems the most likely (due to several factors) is to go to 1/2" lateral/drop lines. By going to larger lines, we negate the vast majority of the losses due to 5/16" line friction. Both calculations and extensive measurements of vacuum in tubing systems show improvements, and preliminary field testing shows that 1/2" lateral lines yield an improvement of 15-20% in sap yield.

The PowerPoint presentation of this work, as well as our 2010 research on Check-valves will be posted (hopefully) later this week on the UVM Proctor Maple Research Center website. I will post the link when it becomes active.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Im going back to my sprinkler parts and do my woods with that. Nice swing line tubing(funny pipe) Its 1/2" its flexible and streachy and wont kink when you bend it into tight areas and the fittings push in and wont come loose and you dont need clamps. they make Ts and transition fittings to 3/4" or 1" and I dont think squrirrels can chew thru its 1/8th" walls..........................OK now back to my releaser that has people stopping in the street wondering what the heck is all that plumbing doing on two beer kegs:o

[red maples]

here's my question on the subject. yes there is loss in vacuum on the tree during peak sap runs. Say you use a bigger drop and laterals and 100% of the a high vacuum transfers to the tree(28" or higher I guess would be considered high vac) would there be additonal injury or damage or staining to the corewood of the tree? would it be wise raise the tapping size of a tree from 10" to 12" diameter or from 12" to 14" on a conservative scale and only have 1 tap per tree reguardless of tree size and health??

I understand the research is in the early stages and can only be tested for a short period of time each year , so research takes time, but it seems to that buckets stress the tree very little, vacuum stress more, high vac even more, and if you have 100% vacuum transfer onto trees with high vacuum levels , what then?

I am all for maximizing production...I just don't wanna hurt the trees thats all. I wanna keep them around.

[DrTimPerkins]

...would there be additonal injury or damage or staining to the corewood of the tree? would it be wise raise the tapping size of a tree from 10" to 12" diameter or from 12" to 14" on a conservative scale and only have 1 tap per tree reguardless of tree size and health??


There is a common misconception that vacuum increases internal damage in maple trees. This is not the case.

1. Plant cells are not the same as animal cells. Animals cells are like balloons. If you put them in a vacuum, they expand and can rupture (cell death). Plant cells are contained in cell walls, sort of like a balloon in a tight-fitting cardboard box. Put that in a vacuum and nothing happens. The balloon can't expand and break due to the box (cell wall). Pull as high a vacuum as you like and you aren't going to hurt it.

2. Most xylem (wood) cells are dead. You can't kill what is already dead.

We (and other groups) have investigated this extensively. If you did kill cells, you'd expect to see much larger staining columns in trees where vacuum is used. Not the case. You'd also expect to see a change in the chemistry of sap because of ruptured cells. Again....not the case.

http://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc/vacsap.pdf

Now the alternative side of this is from the sugar extraction side. Early indications are that as long as people aren't tapping really small trees, this doesn't appear to be a problem. We'll know better a few years from now. It really isn't (yet) a matter of changing the tapping guidelines, it more is an issue of people adhering to the guidelines that are already in place.

Finally, this 1/2" lateral line work is research in progress. We are NOT advocating that people do it. It is experimental.

[twofer]

Finally, this 1/2" lateral line work is research in progress. We are NOT advocating that people do it. It is experimental.

BAH! You always say that though.

;)

[Dennis H.]

I have something just like you all are saying. I have a string of trees that follow a right-of-way since there are so few trees there and the distance is so long I ran 3/4" black pipe and have quite a few single trees on one saddle fitting. There are also a few that have 2 or 3 trees per saddle. The lenght of that main is somewhere around 600'. The longest Lat is maybe 30' and the shortest is maybe 4', didn't even need a end ring or hook for the wire.

It seems to work really good but since this was the 1st year not sure how it compares to other years or setups. It didn't seem to be a problem of too little sap in the 3/4 either.

I did have to use 3/4 because I couldn't find saddles desined to work with 1/2"

It is a little $$ for all those saddles but you have to do what you have to do. I guess I could have gotten some barb fittings with a threaded port and put in a star fitting or some other fitting for 5/16 lat's

[brookledge]

If you use 1/2" you have two choices of saddles/manifolds.
first is the ones made by leader that are inline(cut in and clamped) with 4 5/16 inlets
Second type is again inline but a 1/2"barb X 1/2"female NPT X 1/2 barb. Then just screw in what ever type of mainline adapter you want like the 4- 5/16 or 6- 5/16 ones.
Also what I have done in the past is use a piece of 5/16 with a tee to connect two of the 5/16 barb fittings into one line instead of using a 5/16 cap fitting
And as for price a roll of 5/16 tubing is about the same as 1/2" black. The only added expense is main line wire and the time to tie it up
Keith

[Beweller]

To reduce pressure drop in laterals:
Reduce flow (fewer taps per lateral)
Reduce length of lateral (fewer taps per lateral) (More main line)
Increase diameter of lateral
Reduce vacuum leaks (less gas, reduced velocity)
Run wet/dry lines to each tap (lower liquid velocity)
Reduce vacuum (higher gas density, lower velocity) (Who likes this?)

Sounds like with more experience/testing/record keeping, current recomendations for the number of taps on a 5/16th lateral are now considered too high.

Its all a question of money (or maybe pride for a few). Is the incremental increase in sap yield worth the cost of reducing the pressure drop, and what is the cheapest way (or ways, for various situations) to reduce the pressure drop.

[red maples]

[QUOTE=DrTimPerkins;112858]There is a common misconception that vacuum increases internal damage in maple trees. This is not the case.

Thanks for the clarification, I learned something new today!!!

[DrTimPerkins]

To reduce pressure drop in laterals:
Reduce flow (fewer taps per lateral)
Reduce length of lateral (fewer taps per lateral) (More main line)
Reduce vacuum leaks (less gas, reduced velocity)

These three are already part of best management practices. Unfortunately the best production is with one tap/lateral (not economically feasible in most cases), and by making very short lateral lines you increase the system cost due to more main line. Even if you had real short laterals with 1-2 taps/lateral you still experience some amount (2-3" of pressure loss). The economic don't work out favorably.



Reduce vacuum (higher gas density, lower velocity) (Who likes this?)


Defeats the intended purpose (to increase sap yields).



Run wet/dry lines to each tap (lower liquid velocity)
Increase diameter of lateral


We have tried both approaches. Both can work, but the wet/dry line is considerably more expensive (about 2.2x), and has far more potential leak points (again, about 2.2x). The 1/2" lateral/dropline concept has far fewer problems. The line is about 1.5x the cost and you have the same number of fittings as a 5/16" line, so fewer potential leaks. The main issue right now is that all the correct fittings don't currently exist for 1/2" line.

So far, experimentation we have done shows an increase of about 18-19% in yield. We need to do some larger-scale studies to ensure that this holds up. If it does, we can calculate the economics. At first glance you might think 1.5x the cost for 18-19% increase. Keep in mind though that it is a one-time cost, but the 18-19% benefit is something you'd get each year, so it doesn't take too long to catch up. Interestingly, if you go to 1/2" lateral/dropline, the issue of # taps on a lateral line and length of lateral line largely goes away. Calculations indicate that with 1/2 line you can put up to 25 taps per lateral and have lines that are hundreds of feet long and not experience much pressure loss. The resulting reduction in mainline cost with this type of installation could largely offset the increased cost of the lateral lines, so the materials cost using 1/2" is probably considerably lower than 1.5x to start with.

[maple flats]

It sounds like we might need to get the maple companies to start making 3/8 tubing and fittings for latterals. The difference of just 1/16 would make a big contribution to sap and vac transfer. To test it there are lots of sources for 3/8" tubing, just not the maple type fittings (yet)

[DrTimPerkins]

It sounds like we might need to get the maple companies to start making 3/8 tubing and fittings for latterals. The difference of just 1/16 would make a big contribution to sap and vac transfer. To test it there are lots of sources for 3/8" tubing, just not the maple type fittings (yet)

We have been working in this area for more than a few years now. 3/8" isn't big enough. If you're going to change, might as well go to something that results in a sufficient yield to justify the benefit. Again....we'll know some things much better by the end of this summer, and how well it performs in the field by this time next year.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I think Bascoms carries a 1/2" saddle.

[ennismaple]

With enough demand we'll see 1/2" saddles, tees, Y's, end hooks etc... by all the manufacturers.

[PATheron]

If you run half inch line as lateral line all throughout the woods, what happens when that comes apart in season from time to time like our 5/16 does. Now I run big pumps and I loose a few 5/16 connections no big thing. I still get my sap. A half inch line coming apart is a BIGGG Leak. Thats going to turn my BIGSAP into little sap that day. Seems like black water line at a t connection would pull apart much easier than a barbed fitting on the 5/16. I bet the vac transfer is terrific but are we becoming way more vulnerable to huge leaks every time there is a gust of wind? Thee(worried about loosing precious BIGSAP)rooon

[PATheron]

I think the half inch is a darn good idea for vac tranfter for sure but I think were going to have to change the cfm per taps guidelines from 1cfm per hundred to 100 cfm's per tap. Theeron

[DrTimPerkins]

If you run half inch line as lateral line all throughout the woods, what happens when that comes apart in season from time to time like our 5/16 does.

Nobody said we'd be using 1/2" water line although that is one approach. I'd think the same composition we use for lateral lines now, just bigger, would be better.

[Haynes Forest Products]

I want to meet the guy that can pull the screw/barb fitting out of a funny pipe for swing lines on sprinkler systems.

[PATheron]

That sounds like that would work real good if you used the same stuff the 5/16 is made of. You wouldnt have the leak problem that way at all. Only other thing is sagging from tree to tree. You guys probly have that thought out too, maybe use something like the rapitube so it doesnt sag. Theron

[220 maple]

Why not two tubing lines to each tree one for vacuum the other for sap transfer, then at the tree a six inch long peice of one inch pvc pipe with the cv tap in the center and the vac line at the top and wet line at the bottom, the sooner the tree gas is seporated from the sap the better. That would allow the sap to move faster in the tubing because it is straight down hill and steep. The tubing producers would love it, nothing like doubleing sales in everyone's woods. Ca-ching. When this happens I will need only a 5% royality check made out to ME.

Mark 220 Maple

[Haynes Forest Products]

google FUNNY PIPE or swing line pipe. 220 Maple they do make conjoined tubing Just got to know where to look:)

[Rhino]

In May when I went to a tubeing seminar, a sales rep from CDL said they have come up with mainline that acts and holds like blue lateral lines. No wires needed, the only thing is they can only make it up to 1 inch, they tried bigger but it would sag to much.... So i would think that they would start or have started to make 1/2 inch if it seems to work so good for drops and laterals?? stay tuned i guess.

[Squaredeal]

The CDL mainline is called rapi-tube and 1 1/4" is coming out in the next month or so.
I visited a 10,000 tap installation that used rapi-tube and it was pretty sweet.

[DrTimPerkins]

Why not two tubing lines to each tree one for vacuum the other for sap transfer, then at the tree a six inch long peice of one inch pvc pipe with the cv tap in the center and the vac line at the top and wet line at the bottom, the sooner the tree gas is seporated from the sap the better. That would allow the sap to move faster in the tubing because it is straight down hill and steep. The tubing producers would love it, nothing like doubleing sales in everyone's woods. Ca-ching. When this happens I will need only a 5% royality check made out to ME.


This would work (or at least has in our testing over the past three years). It is considerably more expensive than a single larger diameter lateral line however, and introduces many more areas for leaks.

As far as your royalties.....sorry, but you'll have to get in line. We submitted the patent applications in the U.S. and Canada for such a system some time ago.

[lpakiz]

Rhino,
Where was the tubing seminar you went to in May. Dang, I must have missed another one!!

[PATheron]

Dr. Tim- Im envious of your job. All the time Im at work Im thinking of how I can make more sap and thats basically your job. Your a lucky man. Id give anything to spend my days the way you do. I dont know what you make for a living but youve got a good gig going. Your not interested in trading for a power company job are you? Ive got 26 substaions down here with your name on them, overtime, benefits, Ill fix you right up. Didnt think so. Theron

[Rhino]

The seminar/open house was at Polaks Maple Hollow near Merrill. They hold it every year in early May. Just give Joe a call to put you on his mailing list. They have sales on equipment those days also.

[lpakiz]

Thanks Rhino, I'll do that.

[DrTimPerkins]

I've been thinking about what Dr. Tim was talking about @ Bascom's open house,laminar flow in drops and laterals as opposed to "slug flow".I totally agree that when slug flow is observed vacuum is not being transferred to the tree as it is during laminar flow.I believe he mentioned as much as a 10" drop in vacuum during slug flow which makes sense because vacuum doesn't transfer through liquid very well.

The "Sap and Vacuum Dynamics" presentation from the Bascom's Open House has now been posted on our website https://www.uvm.edu/~pmrc/ Look on the right side under Recent Publications. Please note that this document is copyrighted.

[J. hutchins]

Is anything still happening with this research?

[DrTimPerkins]

Is anything still happening with this research?

We are preparing a summary of the five years of work we've done on this for submission to the "Maple Digest."