Expandable or not?

[Amber Gold]

Looking at purchasing an 600 gph RO for next season. I have the option of expandable or non-expandable. Guessing the only difference is fittings and wiring?? The pressure pump is the same size. It costs an additional $700 to get it expandable. Is it worth the additional expense? If I get the non-expandable version, is it easy enough to retrofit one in the future? At this point I don't see a reason why I would need a 1200.

Most of the manufacturer's use a 5hp pressure pump. CDL offers a 7.5hp upgrade to the 600 gph RO. What's gained...higher flow rates? Then I saw Bascom's has a used Lapierre 600 w/ a 10 hp pressure pump, does that have even higher flow rates?

Thanks

[MERIDIAN MAPLES]

We bought a 600 gallon CDL RO a couple of years ago. When we bought it the dealer said you could pay $500.00 now for it to be expandable, or $500.00 later if you decide to expand. We decided to expand this year. I had 2 different CDL dealers come out and give us a quote of upgrading. You would think each dealer would be on the same page, but they were not.
The unit itself is set up to receive an additional flow meter, and wiring for the additional post. One dealer said I have to add another prefilter, and the other said one is sufficient. One dealer said to put the flow meter on the post, the other said he'd put it on the machine. Right now I have a Mark 1 membrane, which has worked for me well, but I'm not to impressed with the flow rate at times. One dealer said to go to NF270's, and the other one said stay with the Mark 1. Garth says Mark1, and Nick said NF270's aren't bad if used correctly and they have incredible flow rates. The dealer that told me to go to NF270's has done everything he's suggested to his own operation, while the other I don't think has had first hand experience.
One other thing the dealer with first hand knowledge of the 600 gallon RO suggested we put a bipass for the wash cycle on our machine. Right now when the RO goes through the was cycle it has to pump everything through the 5 horse pressure pump, which puts more pressure on the other pumps doing the wash. Creates more friction, which causes the temp to go up faster. With the bipass the wash cycle would last longer. He said it's really benificial with 2 posts.
With the 5 horse pump with to posts its considered a 1000 gal ro and with a 7 horse the call them a 1200 gal. ro.

[maplecrest]

after going the expanable with my first 600. i found it in better interest to trade machines. on the mark 1 vs. nf 270. hands down the flow rates at far better with the 270. but you need to watch the ph. and never go over 9 when washing. or they will pass sugar. 270 do pass sugar a fine amount like 30 gallons of syrup for every 3000 gallons syrup. but you figure in the time factor between the two, i feel it is worth it.

[Russell Lampron]

Josh for the number of taps that you are going to have a non expandable 600 would be all of the RO you will ever need. The RO with the 10hp pump will require more electricity to run which means a larger circuit panel capable of handling the amp load. If everything works out for you and you have 6000 gallons of sap to process the 600 will do it in 10 hours.

The pores in the NF 270 do open up if you clean it with the ph over 9. They will close up in a couple of days and flows will return to normal if you should happen to do it to your membrane. There is no permanent damage. Sugar passage can be controlled or limited by running the high pressure as low as possible with the concentrate flow as high as possible.

Run your RO with water removal being the primary concern, not a specific sugar percentage. Recirculate your sap to get to the higher sugar percentages. The membrane will stay cleaner longer and have a longer service life.

[Amber Gold]

Thanks for the input. Non-expandable it is.

[802maple]

Josh you are most likely making the right decision. but don't get hung up on that word non expandable. They are all expandable. There is just limited space in the electrical circuit panel in the "non expandable units, but I have expanded many of them. With alittle ingenuity it can go to a 1200 quite easily

[Amber Gold]

If I make it a 1200, I'm going to need to find another 3000 taps...

Another thing I thought was weird, is the expandable version draws 9 more amps...not sure where it's coming from because the pumps are the same.

What will I need for plumbing fittings? I can include this in the grant so I need a basic materials list to get a quote.

Thanks

[Brent]

Josh
it's possible that the pumps have the same HP but are different RPM and that would change the current. If that's not the case then I suggest there is a typo in the specs. If they're made in Quebec, be suspect of everything translated from French.

Mine has (lousy) instructions on how to wash a rig with 8" membranes, but it only has 4".

[Russell Lampron]

Each membrane tower has a recirculation pump on it. Are they figuring 9 extra amps for the second tower?

[Amber Gold]

The information came from the owner's manual which is available on cdl's website. It lists the same pumps for both models, but the expandable version draws 9 more amps, the same as the 1hp recirc. motor. I'm guessing it's a typo.

Is anybody using 3 phase 600 RO's? My electrician is recommending getting the RO in 3 phase because it's more efficient and the motors are heavier duty. It seems to be making things more complicated though.

[Brent]

Three phase power is a bit more efficient. what you save in a season might be enough to buy a case of beer

BUT

you will be stunned at the cost of getting the service put in if you are in a rural area. We sell machine tools and customers around here a having to make an easy choice of
$5000 for good phase converters or anything from $ 25,000 to $ 150,000 for the electric company to run the 3 phase power to them in the country.

[Amber Gold]

I guess the benefits would be realized if it ran longer than 5 weeks a year. I'd need a phase converter or a VFD to switch phases.

[brookledge]

Josh
Do you have 3 phase on the street? That would be the first thing to look and see, because if you don't, don't even consider it any more. Not worth the $ upfront. If you have it on the street then ask you electrician to give you an estimate for both single phase and three phase. Then make you choice
Keith

[Amber Gold]

I do have 3 phase at the street. I was considering a VFD or phase converter to switch phases.

I'm sticking with single phases. The increase in efficiency isn't cost effective w/ the short duration of the season.

[Thad Blaisdell]

I installed 3 phase power into my sugarhouse. The only real benefit I have seen is the bragging rights of having it. Everything to put it in costs way more. From the meter box to the panel. Although I have heard both ways on the energy savings. I ran a 10 HP vacuum pump straight for 30 days, a 1200 CDL RO, lights, electric releaser, and two Carlin 801's, plus all the other stuff involved and my power bill was only $535. I thought that was very reasonable. But in hindsight I would just stick to the single phase.

[Amber Gold]

That's a pretty cheap electric bill. Mine wasn't too far off from that and I ran a 1.5hp pump, blower, lights.

Determining electrical requirements. The 600 RO, has 3 pumps, a 1hp feed pump (6.4 amps), 5hp pressure pump (26 amps), 1 hp recirc. pump (9 amps). Will all pumps run together or during normal operation the feed and pressure pumps at the same time and during a wash cycle it'd be the feed and recirc. pumps?

For a 600, I know ideally 2 gal per 1 gph is recommended, but would a 7-800 gal tank be large enough for a permeate tank? If I get the grant, I'm getting a new 1058 gal round bottom tank and would like to use my existing 7-800 gal galv. round bottom tank for permeate. Build a platform for it and stack it above the 1058 gal tank. Takes up less space and I don't need to buy another tank.

[Brian Ryther]

It must be different electrical rates but, my bill for sugaring was only $330.00. I run a 3 hp vac pump (24-7), 600 gph ro (20hrs/day), lights, blowers, filterpress etc...

[Thad Blaisdell]

For a 600, I know ideally 2 gal per 1 gph is recommended, but would a 7-800 gal tank be large enough for a permeate tank? If I get the grant, I'm getting a new 1058 gal round bottom tank and would like to use my existing 7-800 gal galv. round bottom tank for permeate. Build a platform for it and stack it above the 1058 gal tank. Takes up less space and I don't need to buy another tank.


I would say that it would depend on how fast your evaporator takes care of it. I have 4900 taps, and a 2100 gallon permeate tank this year and had no problem with that. I am adding another 3000 taps this year and will not increase that storage. But I am also running a 6 X 14 evaporator.

[Amber Gold]

Why does it matter how fast your evaporator is in regards to your permeate tank? Are you thinking the concentrate tank?

[Thad Blaisdell]

Yes .... concentrate......