Most fair for both parties involved

[Rhino]

Wondering what the best and most fair way of doing this idea.... Buddies of mine bought 60 acres of woods next to ours, there was a total of 120 acres, we got 60 they bought 60. We put ours in a ag. tax program the day after signing. Taxes on the other 60 are $1400.00 a year. They would like to get those taxes down without putting it in a state mfl program. This is what i am thinking about..... We have 1000 bag holders with the metal taps, I would lend them the holders and taps to put in their woods, They would have to tap, collect, and bring the sap to me which i would purchase from them. They would benefit from lower taxes (about cut in half) plus a check for the sap. Here is the one head scratcher.... Should they be the ones who buy the sap bags, put them on the holders, and then take them off and put back into boxes at the end of the season? Does anyone do this type of lending/sap buying, weather its with bag holders or buckets?? If with buckets do they wash and stack them? Benefit for us would be more time for line maintanence, and cooking, not to mention letting our trees heal totally for as long as they do this. Just the time putting bags on and off would save a ton of time. $$ saved on bags would be around $250-$300. could buy the first 1000 gallon load of sap with that money. Any feedback would be great.

[Dennis H.]

If it was me I would supply the bags but would have to figure that into the price I would give him for the sap. And that would be the total price for the sap for the entire season.

Now if you are doing everything from hanging them to collecting to clean up at the end of the season I would say it would be a even trade for him getting a cheaper tax rate. Maybe give him a little syrup in the end.

My 2 cents

[Haynes Forest Products]

So they want to save $700.00 by taping the trees AND sell the sap and your going to supply the equipment and your thinking you should do most of the work. :rolleyes: There must be some other benifit to not going AG so whats the deal.

[Rhino]

Haynes, Thats the thing, I want to pass on the work of tapping, collecting, cleaning that goes with bag holder taps. If they were to buy 1000 taps/holders used, $4000-$5000 grand would be spent. There really is no benefit to not trying to get into an ag tax break, sure, they could apply for MFL but they want to thin it out without the states involvement in it and the taxes would still be about the same in the MFL program as it would be in AG if they put it in a closed MFL meaning no trespassing allowed. I heard once of one big producer that farms out his buckets and taps to a bunch of dif. people and he buys the sap and they get the tax break. I think i heard the amount was over 10,000 taps worth in the cumberland Wi area but i know it is not Andersons. (anyone know?) Thats exactly what i want to do but with bag holders it is dif. because of the added expense of bags and added work with putting them on and takeing them off. Thats the main question, who should pay and do that part. If my buddies don't like the whole idea i still think i might farm out that equipment and see if i can find someone else to do it, even if i have to find multiple people and split the 1000 bags up.

[briduhunt]

I have several familys that I buy their sap. I provided the plastic buckets with taps and tubbing. They tap the trees and bring me the sap. I got the buckets for free, my only cost is the taps and a short piece of tubbing. I also do have the agreement than when a family no longer wants to do this any more, the taps, tubbing and the buckets come back to me. I have the familys keep the material at their homes and they are responsiable for the cleaning of the equiprment. I have had one family stop participating in my program and sure enough I got back my buckets and taps within two days of them deciding not to participate any more.
I would have the landowners decide to pay for the sap sackets and holders or advise them to find the free backery buckets themselves, or with a little of your help. This will cut down on the initial cost's.
I would also offer them the option of what it would cost to tube the property so they can see all the different cost involved in tapping.

Just my 2 cents.

[MERIDIAN MAPLES]

Rhino,
I think Allen Hustad is the guy you are thinking of in Cumberland. He supplies the people he buys sap from all the materials I believe. He doesn't tap anything himself.

I myself would supply them with the bag holders and taps, but they pay for the bags. We buy some sap, and try to help the customers out as much as possible, but some people can get sloppy with handling bags, and you could be replacing quite a few. They could also have lots of squirrel damage??

Craig

[Rhino]

Thanks for the info, yes, Hustads name does sound familier. I know my buddies wouldn't want to string line in their woods so this is the best route to go. Hopefully they want to go along with the idea of the initial cost of the 1000 bags. Will talk to them and see what they think, and if not i will start putting the offer out on craigslist for our general area. only thing is i would have to look at the persons woods to make sure the trees look like they will produce, not that they have all small soft maple. will keep you posted on how this pans out.

[lew]

You have an investment in your bag holders and spiles. In order to get your money back out of them they need to be working. Letting someone use the bag holders for free dosesn't seem fair to you. I think you should aproach them with a rental agreement. Charge them some thing, maybe .25 cents per year per bag holder and spile. They are responsible for the bag, too much of a chance for damage beyond your control. Also they are responsible for tappining and clean up. This way you get the sap, they get the tax advantage and the money for their efforts. the rental keeps things a more businesslike and helps keep your friends, your friends. If you give them something for nothing, they will not appreciate it and will in time come to take advantage of the situation. I know of a local producer that has let a couple guys use his equipment (buckets, spiles tubing, barrels, tanks, tappers, etc.) for nothing. He buys their sap and they clean the equipment they use and they tap the trees. This situation has gone on for years. This year when it came time to clean up they insisted that the owner buy a new brush for the bucket washer ($98) because he owned the washer. Mind you the owner has not used the washer in years. The freeloders have warn the brush out and have never paid the guy any rent. All the owner got was the sap from these guys and some warn out equipment. The price of the sap should be enough so that the freeloaders could pay towards their own equipment, pay for any fuel, and pay them for their efforts.

[Rhino]

lew, Thats the most important thing to me is not having this situation get between friends. I would do this as a work load break for me but mostly as a tax break for them. As far as the bag holders go, they are almost indestructable but the soule cast taps can easily break if tapped or pulled out wrong so that would be a concern as to how many are breaking in a season. They are hard working guys so i know the sap would be collected and brought to me so that is a big plus. Going out and looking for people to utilize the equipment and bringing me the sap could be a big headache if i choose wrongly. End up not having them collect in a while or saying it's to much work half way thru the season. I will cross that bridge if my friends turn down the idea.

[sapsucker78]

Yes, Hustads is the one you are thinking of, he is a good friend of mine. He lends out his pails, spiles, tanks to anyone that wants to tap trees and bring him the sap. I live close to him and do the same thing. I don't really feel like we are competing but I think I sould treat my sap suppiers the same way he does. I lone pails, spiles, tanks, sap sack holders, and bags to the folks that bring me sap. At the end of the season they pick up all the suff up out of the woods and bring it back to my place and then they get paid for the years worth of sap they brought. I clean everthing up and get it ready for next year. If somone wants to supply their own equipment I am willing to pay extra for the sap as long as I know what they are using (not old oil buckets). The thing I like about it is someone that wants to try it one year can do it without having to go out and buy a bunch of stuff, if they like it they can do it again next year. A lot of them would not do it if they had to buy everything themselves. Some of them tap in woods they do not own, then its their resonsibility to (pay) or work out some kind of deal with the land owner. I could not make the amount of syrup I do without these guys so I am willing to work with them I guess.:)

[40to1]

Rhino....
I do not understand all the particulars involved (so take this all with a huge grain of salt), but you said a few things that raised my eyebrow.
The issue isn't what's fair to both parties. The issue is what's proper when you get audited - or worse: when your friends get audited. The trail will lead back to you. I think that if you're wriggling around to help a friend (not to be rude, but...) "scam" the state, then you are in trouble.
Don't make your friend's tax situation your problem or become complicit in what may be viewed as possible tax evasion.
If your friends want to buy/rent gear and sell sap to you, fine. But don't orchestrate it for them. From your perspective, you are only helping a friend. but from a tax perspective, the view might not be so charitable.
I'd run this by a lawyer. You'll sleep better at night.

[Rhino]

40to1, To say this in a nice way, you have it all wrong. There is nothing illigal or scamming the state out of tax money about this. There are people who tap their woods and sell the sap to producers useing their own equipment who then get the ag tax break, the only dif. here is that i am loaning the equipment for them to be able to tap/sell to me, without spending alot of money on maple equipment. so the way i see it the only people who are getting scammed out of money are the maple syrup equipment suppliers. lol. Just a side note, i know a guy who taps a couple dif. peoples woods and those properties are getting the ag tax break and those owners don't have anything to do with the process. I guess it all "boils" down to what the property itself is used for, and not whos or what equipment you use, or who is doing the work.

[40to1]

Ahhh.... got it.
Thank you for the explanation. I see the distinction....

[markcasper]

I know Hustads quite well.....I told them I was paying 50% on sap delivered, and supplying the equipment, except the bags.....they told me that was too much.
This is what I do, one guy had 400 taps, I provide bag holders, gathering tank, pails, spiles, gas tapper to use, he had to get it to me. Now this sap was extremely sweet going from 4.7% with the first load, to 3.6% on the last. I WANT THIS SAP!! He had to buy the bags. I took him a check for $2600 plus last night, and based it off the bulk price.

Now there was a little bit of problem with not getting everything collected, i.e. if the small gathering tank had 75 gallons in, it would sit til the next day until the big tank could be filled full. It was partially my fault, as I had bought a 1000 gallon tank for him to haul it over, but I did not have a gasket, didn't have it ready for the season and he had to use my smaller 400 gallon main tank. I talked to him about this and hopefully will be corrected next year.

There is no way he would monkey with it if he had to purchase the bag holders, etc. He has around 150 more and he says he will do them all next year. I was satisfied and so was he, thats all that matters. He pastures this trees, so tax deduction is no issue here.

As far as wearing out equipment.....its not like their running a combine or an expensive tree processer with many moving parts. If the equipment doesn't get run over and stored in the dry in the off season, its virtually will last a lifetime.

[Rhino]

Thanks Mark, thats what i was looking for, someone who does this with bag holders. I will use your response as an example when i talk to them. I am thinking they should make around $2500-$3000 if they get 10 gal. of sap per tap with around 2.0-2.5% sugar. They buy the bags.

[markcasper]

There were a few other boilers in my area that were buying sap for .12/point.
and that was with no equipment furnished.

With current bulk prices for dark amber, 1/2 that price converted to $$$$ per gallon of sap would equal .16/point. I don't know.....I feel there are some sap producers only that are getting the short end of the stick.

I also feel bad for those with trees that are only getting .30-.40 a tap.

Like my dad has said..............no trees, no syrup!

RHINO, They also should be told there is usually %5-%10 of the bags that get holes over the course of the season and need to be replaced. Get EVERYTHING out in the air before. My guy actaully only replace like 1% of his bags, but he only gathered 10 days too. Oh....I also bought a pump for the gathering tank too for him to use. He had big eyeballs the other night with $2600 check in hand. It was like manna from heaven-the look on his face.

[Rhino]

Mark, good idea to get everything up front with the xtra bags that might be needed. We try to eradicate any vermin seen, and their woods is adjoining ours so the population should be thinner then most areas. We have less then 5% holes but we use heavier ply bags which can stand up to a little more abuse but not teeth. Your sap patron who got that check i bet was as happy as a fat rat in a cheese factory. I know last year when we couldn't keep up and sold 10,000 gal. of sap that was easy/fast money. If people with maple woods knew of the income their woodlot could generate just from the sap there would be more people i think doing it. Thanks again

[markcasper]

Rhino...these are pasture trees that this guy has and alot of trees have briars or something with prickles on them, very easy to get the bags hung up. He did have an axe and took out the worst and made for less holes. I just say up to 10% because I have had it that bad, but that was one year only. You are right in that its usually only 1%, sometimes up to 4 or 5%.

I had the timber bid sheet from 2 weeks ago and showed him the $70-$200 a thousand top for hard maple. He laughed and said way more money in syrup. When do you think hard maple will go back to $1000-$2000 a thousand?

[Rhino]

Mark, My partner has this past winters log spec sheet and prices so i am only going by memory here, but we sold our logs (all 8'4" no random length) to Dvoraks saw mill in Athens. Obviously we didn't have any hard maple logs but we had alot of nice cherry that was $900/per thousand for veneer. I would think the hard maple and oak veneer would of been slightly higher, but thats only a guess without the sheet in front of me and we didn't cut any of those species. Bottom line is bad economy/slow building = low prices at the saw mill. A person listens to the evening news at night and man it seems the whole world is going crazy. The oil in the gulf bothers me the most though.

[markcasper]

The highest bid out of 11 landowners was $200/ thousand for on the stump. So if there was some veneer in those sales, then still, all the landowner would fetch would be $200.

I did not see any cherry, though there were a few sales set up under "mixed hardwood sawlogs".

[Rhino]

Mark, If you were to get $200 per thousand, that wouldn't be the worst, but $70 bucks per thousand would be like them stealing it. A pulp truck on average can haul around 4000 board feet give or take, so you would end up with $800 a load for the sawlogs. That would be about 1/3 of the load if the logs were nice. On average with our drivers truck it takes around 130 logs for a load and we like to average around $20.00 each log. Some of the cherry logs last winter brought $50 each. When you start shipping #3 logs which have alot of flaws in it or are small diameter the price is around $280-$300 per thousand and you are better off sending those for pulp because trucking is usually higher for log hauling. I don't know how many saw mills are in your area, but that would have a big impact on stumpage prices with drive time/fuel.