Sugar Bush Density

[warners point]

I'm just getting started and have been doing tons of research on making syrup. We have 80 acres in MN and this spring I went out and did a survey of trees. The area that the sugar bush is in is a hard wood mix with lots of old growth oaks, basswood and maple. The main sugar bush is in an area of about 30 acres and from there I counted about 1000 maples(90% sugar 10% red) 10"+. Is this a good density? There are another 400 in another 20 acre area. Will this be a sugar bush that will be worth my while to invest time and money into?

[maple flats]

That is a good density. Next you should thin trees that touch the crown on the maples, thin on 2 sides only at first, then the other 2 about 10 years down the road. What is the lay of the maple section?

[ADKMAPLE]

MapleFlats, no matter what should someone thin out all of the hemlock/pine? cause I ahve alot of that mixed in

[kiegscustoms]

There is another thread in here about thinning and selectively cutting in a sugar bush under sugar bush management etc... Several people have suggested getting a forester to come in and survey the land. We are doing just that this year. I have a neighbor who is a forester and said he would come walk the woods for a remarkably low price. One thing to take into consideration is the final outcome. If you are just looking for advice make sure to have a very loose agreement as far as future outcome. If you want to log some of the woods for timber and want to do it yourself you also want a loose agreement. This all depends how your forester wants to get paid. If He will settle for a lump sum vs percentage of timber sales. Once you get locked into a forest management plan you are bound to it so if you are just trying to gain knowledge about what to cut and what to leave avoid that. We have 450 taps roughly on 10 acres currently, and just surveyed another 12 acres for 650+- more. Some of these trees are very close together in spots with minimal crown others are in a more open area with wide crowns. The density of the 1000 taps on 30 acres is good, providing the trees are not overcrowed. If they have good crowns and are healthy I would invest in it. 400 taps over 20 acres is ok but it depends on the layout of main line and laterals to make it worth it. You don't want 100+' Laterals so you may need several branch mains to catch all the parts of that bush.

[wally]

Once you get locked into a forest management plan you are bound to it so if you are just trying to gain knowledge about what to cut and what to leave avoid that.

not specifically. there are some tax programs (current use, vt use-value, etc) that require a management plan for guidance under some conditions. actually, the management plan is just the opposite of locking you in. it provides options for management, including no management.

a management plan is just that. a plan for the future. it isn't in stone. plans are intended to be flexible, to allow for changes in economy, science, site conditions, whatever. none of the plans i've written require the client to utilize my services to perform the on-the-ground management. i get paid to write the plan. if they want forest management supervision, as for a logging operation, they'll pay me based on a contract for services, or they can pay a different forester. or they can do it themselves.

a timber sale contract is different than a management plan.

wally

[maple flats]

No do not remove all of the pine/hemlock. Rarely should you remove all of a native species. Hemlock and pine are good in a sugarbush. Try running pipelines in those areas if possible. The sap will stay cooler. I still say, call a forester to help you know what to remove and how much. After several classes and seminars along with a few woods walks with a Forester and Master Forestowner Volunteer, I feel comfortable marking my own but do not want to tell others how to do it. Get an expert.

[kiegscustoms]

Wally- Thanks for that insight. When I spoke with one of the foresters in my area they said for a management plan I would have goals or specific time lines that a certain amount of the overall project would have to be completed. Maybe he was filling me full of BS. Another forester said he would just go up and walk the woods and mark trees he thought should be cut and explain why to cut those trees vs leave others so in the future I could perhaps make those decisions on my own. I guess it is always good to have several opinions. When I posted that reply I was going on what I had been told, seeing as I am not a forester, but what you are saying makes me want to contact that forester and see if I misunderstood him someway. Thanks-

[red maples]

I am by no means a forester and you may want to do a walk through with one but I agree with some of the other comments and add that it is good to have a variety of trees as they all add something to the soil. as long as there is some light hitting the ground and trees aren't smothering each other and there is room for their crown to grow your all set.

One thing to take into consideration if you have a section that requires alot of thinning is to start with release cuts so you don't get sun scotch. too much sun too fast can actually hurt a tree, not kill it but it will slow the growth and have a negative effect.
especially if you havre a maple in the middle of a hemlock stand that doesn't get alot of summer sun or winter sun for that matter but the winter sun is not nearly as intense as we all know.

just my 2 or 3 cents

[ADKMAPLE]

Oh great, well, I cut HEAVY about 30 of my 50 acres of white pine and hemlock. I have a mixture of hardwoods that are still left. I havent really planned on tapping it due to terrain, it is basically on top of a small mountain and I am at the bottom. Its almost like a plateau.