Vacuum Distance and Vac Line Size?

[220 maple]

The question is what size line will I need to transfer vacuum to a releaser that will be around 4000 feet from the Vacuum Pump. The pump I have is a 35 cfm Indiana Liquid Ring unit. I used it on the woods I leased from my neighbor. My land borders their land. I have 900 taps on gravity and they all run to one tank. On the leased land I had 864 taps this year but when I'm done I should have 12 to 1300 total taps. 1300 plus 900 will give me 2200 taps on a unit rated for 3500 taps. Will a inch line be big enough or will a bigger line be needed to Vac. my trees? What if I install a Vacuum storage tank near the releaser. I have one that came out of a dairy barn, I'm guessing it's about a 30 gallon storage unit. Also can I put a T in the Vacuum line that goes to the releaser I'm using on the leased wood or do I need to come out of the back of the releaser and go to the new releaser on my property? You have figured out by now that I'm in the market for some used black plastic line. Not for sugar water just for Vacuum transfer only.

Mark 220 Maple

[Haynes Forest Products]

Big as possible but dang 4000' is alot of money. I wouldnt put the releasers in series because the first in line will cause surging and if it freezes it could shut the other one. You can make cheap reserve tanks out of 4-6" PVC with end caps and barb fittings. Put one at the T so the surge doesnt transfer from line to line and another at each releaser. If you want to get fancy take a 10' X 6" PVC, 2 end caps, a inline cross T that has the side legs that are 1 1/2" and cut the 10' in 1/2 and install the Cross T in the middle. Put in reducers for the barb fittings and cap the ends. Strap it to a tree standing stright up and down. Put a drain in the bottom and you have both a reserve tank and moisture trap. If you run the line down at a slight angle into the tanks they will keep moisture from building up in the ling runs. That pump and those tanks should keep things smooth One at each releaser and at the main line T and for under $100.00 your good to go.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

I have a remote releaser that is 1500 feet from the pump and first releaser. First year I had 1 inch on it. Lost about 2 inches of vacuum by the time it reached the 2nd releaser (I had a reserve tank at the pump, halfway to second releaser and at the second releaser). Replaced it with 1 and 1/4 inch and I have had no problem maintaining same vacuum at 2nd releaser as at the pump.
I run PVC from my pump to my releaser at the pump and just T off of that to run to the remote releaser.

[bucksyrup]

i had about 400 feet to a releaser last year of inch and it was not big enough so i put in a vacuum tank about 10 feet before and ran inch and a half line from the tank to the releaser and it worked wonderful after that.

[Randy Brutkoski]

At 4000 ft. with only 35 cfm you will want to go with 1 1/2 and nothing less. With only 35 cfm, if you have 1 vacum leak your cfm's will drop more if you have a smaller transfer line. The bigger the better. Buy a big industial roll on a spindle and you will get a better deal. And really you dont need a moisture trap on a liquid ring pump, water goes in there anyway. Waste of money. Glen Goodrich talked me out of buying one. And why would he turn down a sale.

[Haynes Forest Products]

The reason for a moisture trap on a system like that is to get and keep the lines clear for max vacuum transfer and freeze potential. TTF you state that you lost 2" of vacuum at the second releaser. I would say you didnt lose it it got used up by the first releaser. Changing the line without putting in a reserve tank at the first releaser doesnt prove the bigger line was the ONLY option. 2nd is you didnt have a reserve tank at the 1st releaser only midway to the second. You make 35 CFMs sound PIDDILY and not very good. I disagree. Having a reserve tank at all Ts and devises will be like having a bigger line.

[Jeff E]

I agree, running 1" that far will be problematic. I run 1.5" to my releasers, the farthest be 1200'. No problems, no loss of vac, and quick recovery when releaser dumps. the 1.5" acts as a vac reservoir, the same as the PVC booster tank Haynes discussed.

[Haynes Forest Products]

.................................:rolleyes: .......................................

[Jeff E]

%%%%:confused: %%%%%

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Haines,
There was (and is) a vacuum reserve tank at both ends of the line. Only change was increased line diameter. Yup it cost more and yup it works better.

[802maple]

Theron ran about that distance this year on 1 inch and ask him what happenned. 1 and half inch at the very smallest. I just put in 2300 feet of 2 inch today for that same thing. In our old setup I ran 1 and a half 6000 feet to the first booster and taps, and lost 2inches of vacuum there and 6inches to the back of the woods. We then replaced it with 2 inch and only lost 1 inch all the way to the back.

[Haynes Forest Products]

There are other parts of the equation missing and that is what CFMs the others are running, How tight there systems are and their starting vacuum levels. I was running 1000' 1" line 2 releasers no vacuum tanks with 1150 taps with a Pump that makes 16 CFMs and I had maybe 2 Hgs loss and that is pulling vacuum thru a 150 tap mainline so it was swimming up stream. $2000 is alot of money for what I see is little return.

[Randy Brutkoski]

Bite the bullet and buy 1 1/2. 4000ft. is not 1000ft. If you do go with 1 inch I garrentee that you will replace it after a season or 2. Just trying to be helpfull. Call Leader, Bascoms, Goodrich, anyone who really knows there stuff and they will tell you probably the same thing i did. Good luck.

[220 maple]

Thanks for the Info.
I don't start very many threads on here but when I do they always seem to create a lively discussion.

Mark 220 Maple

[Russell Lampron]

Mark your question is a good question and from my own experience with a remote releaser that is 900 feet away from my pump I recommend that you use 1.5" pipe or larger, 2" would be best. Put a tee and a shut off valve at the first releaser and a shut off valve at the second one that way you can isolate either one if you need to make repairs or de-ice one and still keep the vacuum on to the other one.

[802maple]

It doesn't make any difference how many cfm's you have if your mainline is to small. Theron has 160 cfm's and he had a large vacuum loss over 4000' on 1 inch pipe. I had a 100 cfm on 1 1/2 and I had great loss at 6000 feet. Vacuum is just like pumping water you do have restriction loss. Even 2 inch will lose vacuum when you go to far with it. Remember you are going much further then 4000 feet on a 8000 tap operation, you also need to get it to the last tap which might go through another 2000 to 3000 feet of tubing.

If yopu are trying to set up a operation like that don't try to cut corners in your mainline as that is where your money is made. For 8000 taps it is going to cost in the 80,000 to 90,000 dollar range to do it right if you hire it done and 40 to 50 K if you do it yourself, you can't quibble over $2000 dollars for the most important of the system.

[caseyssugarshack93]

you guys pound more rocks into sand then anyone i've ever seen on threads- 20 replys and still not an definite answer. if you went to a source and asked an expert like i did you would get an answer for real. pull your head out of the sand and look at the specs of this cfm chart. Class is now dismissed........:)

[Haynes Forest Products]

OH but were talking about Vacuum loss not CFMs.........NEXT CHART PLEASE:lol:

[802maple]

you guys pound more rocks into sand then anyone i've ever seen on threads- 20 replys and still not an definite answer. if you went to a source and asked an expert like i did you would get an answer for real. pull your head out of the sand and look at the specs of this cfm chart. Class is now dismissed........:)

You are right I thought I was on the other similar thread and my answers were for that one. Have at it guys I won't pound sand anymore here,I will go eat as that is something I know something about as I don't know anything about vacuum.

[PATheron]

This was my experiance down here with the line feeding my remote bushes. I know that Jerry feels you need large mainline feeding the remote releasers becouse of restriction etc. The governor feels you can go forever kind of if you dont have any leaks. Both those guys have forgotten more about sugaring than I know but my experiance was as Jerry said. I know I had leaks so Im not saying Governors wrong but This was how it went. Ran big ring pump and ran 3000' to one releaser with one inch line. That releaser fed 650 taps. No matter what I did and i know there were some leaks couldnt hardly get 15 inches. Had another releaser 4000' to the releaser and ran one inch couldnt get over like 8". I took the line that ran to the 4000' one and ran it over at the 3000' one as a second vac line to that releaser and as soon as I turned it on went over 20". Went down to the 4000' releaser and put a dairy pump like Jerry told me to do in the first place. Like I said I know I had leaks but that was my experiance. The two one inch lines did work pretty good on the 3000' run though. Probly equalls out to like a 1.25" line or a little better. My experiance has been big pipe good, bigger pipe better. Theron

[Grade "A"]

you guys pound more rocks into sand then anyone i've ever seen on threads- 20 replys and still not an definite answer. if you went to a source and asked an expert like i did you would get an answer for real. pull your head out of the sand and look at the specs of this cfm chart. Class is now dismissed........:)

It's a great chart, but would be better if you didn't cut off the part of the cart that tells you what the numbers mean. Looks like class is back in again.:rolleyes:

[brookledge]

I too noticed the chart is missing the distance numbers on the left side.
Keith

[farmall h]

Caseyssugarshack93, don't make me give you a "time-out"!:lol:

[3rdgen.maple]

you guys pound more rocks into sand then anyone i've ever seen on threads- 20 replys and still not an definite answer. if you went to a source and asked an expert like i did you would get an answer for real. pull your head out of the sand and look at the specs of this cfm chart. Class is now dismissed........:)

Nate i can take a wild guess as to who the expert you asked was. I think there are quite a few people on here that classify as an expert even though they probably never read a bunch of papers or patents someone else went through the trouble of publishing. Experience is what makes the expert, reading it makes you knowledgeable and there is alot of experience on this site. Now shall we open the class doors again.

[farmall h]

oops...posted on incorrect thread.:confused:

[caseyssugarshack93]

an expert is a person that is very skilled in an certain field. like vacuum
for example...if i was to follow anyones advice 100% on vacuum it would be
the governor, 802 and brookledge in that order as they seem to me the most
knowledgable on the subject. theron likes to head into uncharted waters and
i know the gov could give him figures for his pipe size/but he heard of the
manover after the fact that theron ran pipe over a mile. as i have heard you
can have a pipe a mile long and close the end after that the vac should be
the same all along the pipe. the governor took a pic of the chart kinda
blocked off so that it wouldn't comfuse me. so i just posted the pic he sent
me insted of the pipe size and cfm flow rates.
yes 802 knows his stuff too and the governor has the information and
knowledge also to back that up and then some so with that said you guys keep
the pumps on and the vacuum high and hope for the big crop.

[802maple]

If you go back in time you will see where the Governor and I had this very argument over undersized pipe and I guess with no disrespect to him as he is very knowledgeable you will see who is right. If you want to maintain vacuum out at long distance you need to be able to get the vacuum there. A very tight system with small pipe will maintain decent vacuum, but give it one small leak and it is gone and until you find that leak you have lost production for that day. Go big boys go big.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

This is a situation where both Jerry and Kevin are correct. In theory Kevin is right and in practice Jerry is right. Since I make syrup in reality, not theory, I will oversize pumps and lines.

[PATheron]

I kind of think that way too. It seems to me like the governor would be right about that becouse it makes sense to me too but it just didnt work out in practice for me. Too many taps, too many connections, too little time. I know as soon as I threw that second pipe on it was instantly problem solved. Thats really the only way I can make things happen with the time I have allotted. Its darn hard to get as tight as you should be. Im running way more pump than is necessary but you go to work days, try to maintain four releasers running at once, two vac pumps, ro thousands of gallons a day and boil it all up and try to filter it into drums somethings got to give. If I have some drops come loose in a day I still get my sap. Id give anything to be home all day and run this stuff to perfection but unfortunately the pay isnt good enough to quit the day job. Maybe someday. Meantime I just try to make it better a litte everyday. Theron

[802maple]

I also had a chart of cfm loss verses pipe size and I shared it on here in the posts that I had with the Governor. Unfortunately I can't lay my hands on it here as I have not referred to it in a long time and lord knows where it is. If anybody knows how to research that back in the either the fall of 2007 or winter of 2008 it would be there. Computers are beyond me.

[Haynes Forest Products]

802Maple you dont need to get the vacuum there you just need to get the gases out:)

[802maple]

If the vacuum doesn't reach the tree the gases don't come out