Sap ladders

[Spike]

Last winter I installed 4 sap ladders on the same line. Spaced out 3-4 hundred ft apart. From the bottom of the valley to the top is 50ft diffrence. I have a 3/4in main line off the top manifold to first ladder which is 12ft high. Dropping down 15ft. 200 ft away to the next ladder. Again another15ft and 200ft away and so on. I have 170 taps and using 6 way stars. The 2 top ladders are double stars. I have 22-24 inches of vac before the first ladder and only getting 8inches on the bottom of first ladder from there on down nothing to speak of. Sap filled the spiders and backed up into the laterals and taps.Is there a diffrent set up I should be using? Or am I trying to lift to much? Help on this matter

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Spike,
Rule of thumb is one six way star for 60 taps. I usually try to do less than that. I think that you are over loading your ladder and there is no way for adequate vacuum to transfer to the bottom of the ladder. I would try at least 4 stars at the first lift and 3 at the second. Good luck
Doug

[Spike]

Does it matter that I'm trying to lift a total of 50ft? And would a pipe ladder work better. As I would like to add more taps.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Total lift should not matter as long as no individual lift is too high (I went round and round with this in my head for about a year. I have lines with as many as five lifts and ladders in them that lift a total of about 45') I have experience with the commercial "Lifts" and with the six way stars, but not with the 2 pipe ladders. Russel and several others have tried them and can speak from personal experience. I have star ladders with as many as five stars top and bottom, lifting as many as 280 taps that lift about 8 feet and they work well with the loss of less than one inch of vacuum. I have commercial lifts that lift sap from 450 taps 12 feet with no problem and with the loss of about 1 and 1/2 inches of vacuum when the canister is draining and less than one inch otherwise.
Doug

[red maples]

So if I want to lift 250 taps 5 to 6 feet I need to have 4-5 6-way stars. If you ever get a chance can you take a picture so I can see how you did it??

[caseyssugarshack93]

redmaples. look at Royalmaples youtube videos he has some vids of sap ladders

[red maples]

yes I did!!! but he only has like 1 star set up for about 55 taps from what I can see. I need to raise my releaser and tanks up several feet so I will have the whole line running through it which is about 250 taps. I am goin to change things a bit to have 2 lines coming in to break it up a bit but it will still have alot of taps on it and more in the next few years!!

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Redmaples,
Sorry, I don't do photos. Lucky I can do the typing part. I think Brian Ryther also has some good pics of sap ladders. Yes, for 250 taps, you will need at least 5 stars to insure proper vacuum transfer as well as sap lift. I have several of that size and they work well. Just put the stars one after the other about 8 inches apart in both the top and bottom lines. Make sure the bottom stars are pointed down so the sap flows into them and the top ones point up so the sap flows out of them into the upper line. At the end of you bottom line, it is good to put a valve so that the sap can be drained at the end of the season. Try to overlap your top and bottom line so that the 5/16 tubing connecting the stars goes directly up and down.

[Spike]

Doug, thank you for the input. Last year the sap from the ladder line never made it to the releaser. How does the commercial unit work. And whats the max lift. Also thinking of jumping a dry line to the top and bottom of each ladder and adding more stars to each. The system I end up using its gotta work.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Both Leader and CDL have the same commercial lift and LaPierre has one of their own. Basically they are a cylinder that fills with sap. As it fills, it lifts a float until a seal closes off the opening to the sap line and opens a suck line that goes to the upper line. There is a bypass line that goes above the main line and then back down to the lower line 50 or 60 feet back from the lift to keep vacuum on the line while the sap is being lifted. Most of mine are lifting in the 10 to 15 foot range. They are supposed to lift about 300 taps and if outfitted with a manifold system up to 600. The one that leader and CDL sells has a drain that opens when the vacuum is off so it doesn't freeze and break. Any sap that runs to it before the vacuum is turned on will leak out. I put a small vat under a couple of them and suck the sap out with a valved 3/4 inch line that goes into the regular line. Hope this helps. They are kinda hard to explain without seeing them. If you get a chance check it out at some of the distributors.
Doug

[caseyssugarshack93]

with 250 taps id either do a two pipe sap ladder or a lift like doug said, i woudlnt mess with all the star ladders




just my 2 cents

[red maples]

the stars I understand but I have never seen a 2 pipe sap ladder.

[red maples]

found a picture on here vertical pipe sap ladder!!! forget the stars if it works good I will try it!!! ennis maple posted it!!! russ has one also very simple and gotta be less expensive then all the stars!!!

[Russell Lampron]

Yes the 2 pipe ladder is very simple and easy to build. It works good too. I have 2 of them now and have no problems with them. I only have to have a minor air leak for them to lift properly and I get good vacuum transfer. They will lift without the air leak but can flood occasionally and then I have no vacuum transfer until the sap gets pulled up through. I have mine in open spots so that they thaw out fast. If the sap is running at all I have it lifting through the ladders.

[red maples]

sounds good
I will be using the 2 pipe!!! it will much cheaper and easier than buying like 12 stars to get the lift. cool thanks guys

[Brian Ryther]

I use a hybrid of the stars and pipe ladder. My highest lift (140 taps) is 15'+ and I find that the stars don't do much while the pipe does all of the work. I also no longer vent the ladders. I feel that compromises vac levels in the entire system to do this. I would compare it to venting a gravity tubing system. You get instant gratification by seeing sap race up the ladder but you are compromising sap yield by lowering vac levels. I found this year that my sap per tap average was the same with areas that have ladders as areas without ladders.

[sapman]

I was considering adding a star or two to some of my 2-pipers, just to try to insure more consistent vacuum. Is this what you did, Brian? The gauge sometimes will surge up and down with the piper, and I thought perhaps a star would help. Probably not, but worth a try, maybe.

[ennismaple]

Weve got plans for our first double lift ladder this summer. The existing ladder is the first one we put in years ago and is a simple "spider" ladder with an 8' lift to pick up 25 taps. We plan to extend the end of that short mainline, drop it down 10' to the edge of the swamp and extend mainlines in both directions to pick up about 70 or 80 field edge taps. These trees have full crowns, full southern exposure and lots of soil moisture so they should be the best producers in the bush! I think we'll put a double 3/4" ladder for the new 10' lift and add another spider beside the existing 8' lift to get up to the mainline. I'd been thinking for a while it was a shame to not tap these trees until I came up with the plan to make it work. We'll try to post pictures later in the year when we get it done.

[Brian Ryther]

Sapman,
That was my idea when I built the ladders. I feel that the spiders do not contribute to the performance of the pipe ladders. I would choose one or the other. Spiders or pipe ladders.

[Spike]

Russ or Brian I have 50-60 ft to lift. Will a to pipe work? I posted yesterday
with my problem. I can't quite get my brain around 2 pipe system.

[caseyssugarshack93]

your going to have to have like 3 20' two pipe lifts or like 6 10 ft two pipe lifts to get it to lift that much. but it can be done im told

[red maples]

look at russ's photo bucket there is aa perfect picture in there. I think it was in a sp22 and lines folder right russ.


Russ or Brian I have 50-60 ft to lift. Will a to pipe work? I posted yesterday
with my problem. I can't quite get my brain around 2 pipe system.

[Russell Lampron]

Spike,

To determine how much you can lift you need to know how much vacuum you are going to have. An inch of vacuum will lift a column of sap 1 foot. If you have 20 inches of vacuum you can lift your sap 20 feet. Ladders can be run in series to lift higher than your vacuum will allow in a single lift. You will lose some vacuum through each ladder so make the shorter ones the farthest ones from the releaser. Brad is right I have some pictures of my 2 pipe ladder in the sp22 and lines section of my photobucket. That ladder is 9 feet tall.

[Spike]

Thanks Russ, I'll take a look.

[twofer]

Spike,

To determine how much you can lift you need to know how much vacuum you are going to have. An inch of vacuum will lift a column of sap 1 foot. If you have 20 inches of vacuum you can lift your sap 20 feet. Ladders can be run in series to lift higher than your vacuum will allow in a single lift. You will lose some vacuum through each ladder so make the shorter ones the farthest ones from the releaser. Brad is right I have some pictures of my 2 pipe ladder in the sp22 and lines section of my photobucket. That ladder is 9 feet tall.

In the event of a freeze do you have to drain those ladders at night?

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Nope! They may not start in the AM until they are thawed but the rest of the line needs to be thawed anyway.

[Spike]

Russ, When sap is running is the pipe solid or does it suck dropletts. Are you jumping a dry line to each ladder for good vac transfer? What is the theory behind the 2 pipe ladder verses 1 pipe or reg spiders?

[Haynes Forest Products]

On mine I have spiders and I have small air bubbles pushing up the sap or is it the other way around:rolleyes: It looks like a disco bubble machine. Small tubes allow smaller sap amounts to travel up the lines. If you dont have enough sap to fill the single pipe system the sap cant climb up because it breaks vacuum and flows back down.

[Beweller]

A sap ladder can lift a column of sap approximately 1 foot for each inch Hg of vacuum lost. Doing better than this is a violation of the first law of thermodynamics and would make possible the construction of a perpetual motion machine.

Note the underline. You can lift sap to any height providing the sap column does not exceed the available vacuum. To do this, break up the column of sap with gas bubbles. If a vertical pipe is half sap and half air bubbles, the sap can be lifted approximately two feet for each inch of Hg used/lost. To lift sap 50 feet, the column would have to average about 1.5 times as much gas as sap, while consuming 20 inches of Hg vacuum.

This assumes that the gas and sap rise at the same speed. If the gas bubbles rise faster than the sap, additional quantities of gas are needed or the vacuum loss increased. Smaller diameter tubing/pipe tends to make the rise rate of sap and gas equal. If a bubble of gas will rise through a "solid" column of sap in a particular tube/pipe, it will rise faster than the sap in a ladder and the ideal performance (the lift of one foot of sap per one inch of Hg) will not be obtained.

[Russell Lampron]

Spike the sap constantly climbs one pipe of the ladder almost like boiling while it climbs about a 1/3 of the way up the other and then will do the dance like the other side. More air will let the other side dance all of the time like the first pipe but it is not necessary.

The ladder will lift with just one pipe and do it pretty good too but you get better vacuum transfer by having the second pipe. On the first 2 pipe that I built I put a valve in one of the pipes so that I could shut it off for small sap flow days but found that the pipe fills with sap above the valve and it just sits there. I still get good lift with small amounts of sap so I eliminated the valve in the next 2 ladders that I built.

I have my big ladder mounted on the sunny side of a big pine tree so it thaws out fast. If it is warm enough for the sap to flow in the other mainlines it will be thawed at the ladder too.

[Spike]

Russ, Thanks for the info. I'm leaning toward the 2-pipe system. If I were to have 600 taps on the ladders what size pipe would I use?

[sapman]

Leader's catalog says max 500 taps on 1" line. So you want a minimum of a 1" ladder, maybe 1-1/4"? I ran probably around 500 this year, and I think it worked well.

[Russell Lampron]

For 600 taps use 1.25" pipe. It will give you room for expansion.