of sugars, silvers and dark syrup

[Brent]

I've mentioned here before that we have been "blessed" with year after year of getting nothing but light and extra light syrup and that most people that take the time to come to us for syrup, really prefer at least medium, and some even darker.

So this year we started noting the ratio of sugars, to silvers and reds. We're not sure about the red/silver split, but only about 15% of our trees are sugars.

Has anyone had some experience that would point the finger at the silvers for so much light syrup ?

Dr. Tim ... do silvers and reds have fewer of the microbes that convert the sugars ??

[ADKMAPLE]

that is very interesting that you tap mostly silvers and reds and end up with light syrup. you sugar content must be high, dont know what your setup is, but how long of a boil to make syrup? Do you draw syrup off in the evap or finish somepalvce else?

[PerryW]

I always thought that sugar maples made the lightest syrup since their sugar content is higher. Usually you figure that the lower sugar sap from red maples requires more boiling, so you end up with a darker product.

[DrTimPerkins]

Has anyone had some experience that would point the finger at the silvers for so much light syrup ?

Dr. Tim ... do silvers and reds have fewer of the microbes that convert the sugars ??

I think the answer may lie in a part of your signature.

"100 buckets and bags"

Galvanizing (zinc) in buckets is somewhat naturally antimicrobial. Keeps the microbial load in the sap low, making lighter syrup.

[Brent]

Dr. Tim
No galvanizing anywhere in our system. The bags an buckets contribute less than 5% to our total sap run.

Our sugar content rarely drops below 2%. I would say 2.2 is the average.

We started 6 years ago in the kitchen, boiling and adding. Then a turkey frier on the porch, same method. Then a Leader Half Pint, then 2 years on a 2 x 6 and this year added a real RO. We normally boil a little over 66 and use a water jacket canner and dillute to 67 on that.

We did run the RO to 12% for one batch this year and not surprizingly, it was light than the batch immediately befoe and after. I'd say we averaged 7% out of the RO.
But strangely the RO syrup is about the same as everything else we've made for the last 5 years.

This year I spoiled one tank of 275 gallons of concentrate trying to let the microbes "work" a little to get more invert sugars. It got to warm for that ( I think ) and it started to smell of fermentation and we dumped that whole lot.

The only thing I can point a finger at, year after year, is the high percentage of silver and/or reds.

[KenWP]

But if he has buckets like mine there is no zinc since they are aluminium. I tap reds and silvers and my syrup is allways dark. Only the box elder syrup is a bit lighter. I can boil sap collected in the same day and it's dark.

[DrTimPerkins]

But if he has buckets like mine there is no zinc since they are aluminium. I tap reds and silvers and my syrup is allways dark. Only the box elder syrup is a bit lighter. I can boil sap collected in the same day and it's dark.

Hi Ken,
Buckets in the U.S. tend to be galvanized. In Canada, aluminum are more common. Hence my initial comment. Aluminum (or plastic) buckets don't really have the same antimicrobial properties as galvanized buckets.

Sap coming out of a tree (at last initially) is essentially sterile. Whether silvers and reds have mechanisms or substances to resist infection of the taphole with microorganisms hasn't been established to my knowledge.

Could be a lot of things, but could also be the proportion of silver and red maples. It is a good question....but one that isn't easy to answer.

[Brent]

"Could be a lot of things, but could also be the proportion of silver and red maples. It is a good question....but one that isn't easy to answer."

That is just about where I figured this would lead us.

So maybe we should get real sloppy. Take the tops off our tanks. Thow in a few peices of bark. Use old tubing.

Anyone out there want to sell some microbes ?
Experienced microbes preferred.

[markcasper]

How much sun does your tubing get? North side or south side?

[Brent]

Mark I'd have to say moderate sun. The slopes here are also moderate. Highest to lowest would be under 100 feet.
We have maybe 150 taps on what we call our north slope. When we could really see the difference was when we only had buckets, and they came on about a week or so before the south slope and lasted a week or two longer.

What effect do you think the sun exposure would have ?

[argohauler]

Brent you could get rid of your RO and your vacuum and I bet you'd get some darker syrup. Not cleaning your syrup pan till you get 50 gallons or more syrup through it, might make a differnce also.

What does your syrup taste like? How much maple flavour is in your later syrup? You may have to change how you market your product. Giving out samples for people to taste would probably be in order. You'll have to change your tactics.

The neighbour at market had this on his sign today.

Canada #1: Extra Light, Light, Medium
Canada #2: Amber
Canada #3: Dark

Bacteria causes syrup to be darker.

Of course he was only selling light and medium and I was of course selling Amber.

Another fellow was selling a neighbour's syrup. This neighbour won first prize in the 2009 Royal Winter Fair for Light syrup. We were talking about light and it's amount of maple flavour. He told me this has maple flavour. He gave me a sample and I said, Nope it's just sweet. I've made some light in past years, my uncle has and I know what that first syrup tastes like, just sweet. I sample every batch I make so I know how it gets stronger as the season goes. I'm not saying later light doesn't have maple flavour.

I always figured the zinc in galvanizing kept sap better, from experience over stainless. Unfortunately the government won't let me use them anymore.

[RileySugarbush]

I prefer darker syrup as well, and this year experimented with recirculating some syrup, taking half of a syrup draw and pouring in back into the float box. That lets some of the sugars spend more time at high temperature. I think it worked, but don't have any real scientific controls to prove it.

[Brent]

Argohauler
all the light stuff tastes just like it's supposed to. Mild. My wife did put out samplers at the farmer's market and that's something we won't need to do this year. Last year all the tasters picked the darkest stuff we had.

Normally I draw about 4 - 6 jugs off at a time and this year to try to darken it I poured the last one back.

Hmmm today I was in the bush pumping fresh water into the tubing and planning on flushing it tomorrow then putting in the SMBS solution for the summer. Maybe I should just let it grow and get gungy all summer.

[DrTimPerkins]

Normally I draw about 4 - 6 jugs off at a time and this year to try to darken it I poured the last one back.


If you want darker syrup, you might just try letting the sap sit for a day or two before processing it to allow the microbes some time to multiply and thereby convert some of the sucrose to invert sugar.

[Buffalo Creek Sugar Camp]

If you want darker syrup, you might just try letting the sap sit for a day or two before processing it to allow the microbes some time to multiply and thereby convert some of the sucrose to invert sugar.

I have heard a few people say and I experienced it myself this year that sap that has sit for a day or two that may be on the verge of souring can make lighter syrup. Has anybody ever seen this before? We had 70 degree temps this season and I recirculate sap with the ro to 15% or so and Once or twice the sap was soured. I couldn't believe it but it made fancy (according to color), but had a slight off flavor.

[DrTimPerkins]

I have heard a few people say and I experienced it myself this year that sap that has sit for a day or two that may be on the verge of souring can make lighter syrup.

It's rare. but can happen. Color formation during sap processing into syrup is very complex. Most sap starts out slightly acidic. When you boil the sap, it gets more neutral in pH, then goes through an alkaline phase (where the calcium malate "salts" then precipitate out as sugar sand), after which the pH drops again. It is during this alkaline phase that a lot of the color and flavor is developed (curiously, in the sugar industry this is called "alkaline degradation -- they don't want the sugar to develop color).

If the sap sits for a while and spoils, it gets quite acidic, and the alkaline phase could be much reduced. Probably depends upon the microbes present, and how much they've converted the sucrose to invert. If there's much invert, the syrup is almost certain to darken and get stronger tasting.

[Brent]

I did concentrate about 1000 gallons to just about fill a 275 gallon tote and let it sit. I checked it after 24 hours and it seemed ok. The next morning it smelled sour and alcoholic.

I dumped it.

Some sap that was not concentrated also sat just because we could not keep up on the evaporator. Most was near 24 hours old before we concentrated and boil. Some was double that.

I think I need a microbe additive.

[red maples]

I tap mostly reds but the sugars do have more sugar content. I seem to be in the same color(grade) catagory as the surrounding maple farms. And this year there seemed to be alot of bacteria around here I think due to the lack of freezing night temps and contant days warm day temps but the taps flowed just as good straight through the season granted its also the first year on this tubing.

I did tap 3 trees in the fall time and they still ran in the spring time,,,not as much but they still ran...they were reds

I tapped 5 trees in january thaw , they also ran in the spring...again not as much but they still ran. they were also reds.

So there might be claim to reds/silvers having something to battle a bit of the bacteria that closes the holes as well.:confused:

[argohauler]

I had a theory back quite a few years ago that bacteria equalled maple flavour. So is it true?

Brent what are you going to do now if every year you continue to make light? Can you retail it or are you going to have to wholesale it?.

That's something that none of your syrup has maple flavour. I believe you, but it's something to shake your head at.

All you guys in the US that make Fancy, does that equal light and does yours have any maple flavour?

[Russell Lampron]

I don't know what is going on with the trees in Ontario. The red maples down here make plenty of dark syrup. It also has a red color to it, not amber. It makes it a little difficult to grade comparing a red sample to a yellow one and having to decide which one is lighter. It has been 3 years since I have made any light syrup. That was in mid April when my season should have ended about 2 weeks earlier. Before that I was making medium, dark and B. With reds and silvers you should be making Dark syrup.

[Brent]

I think I'll have to buy some amber/dark amber and blend it.

If not we'll stop putting the samplers out and just sell what we got. Maybe keep anything that's a bit darker under the table till someone asks for darker.

Argohauler:
we've got a Magnum 8 wheeler like yours. What kind of tank did you put in it ?

[red maples]

It also has a red color to it, not amber. It makes it a little difficult to grade comparing a red sample to a yellow one and having to decide which one is lighter. .


Mine is red too the medium less red and more yellow/brown but otherwise dark and grade B get very red.

I would say there is something to the bacteria. Do the microbes target certain chemicals / sugar of the sap?

who knows really!!! I think that there is so much more that can be researched scientifically and chemically but their are so many factors that challenge results other than just the small window of sap collection. there is : weather, region to region, micro-climates, soil, other trees in the area and how that effects the maples past use of the land. then getting into collection, bacteria, time from collection to boil, cleanliness....geez the list goes on and on.

I guess thats what Dr. Perkins and his buddies are for right!!!:)

[Brent]

I'm pulling more CVs today. I'm going to bag them and freeze them, leave mine lines dirty, leave my tanks dirty, reboil, leave dirty filters in the RO and go to church before I tap next year.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Brent,

Sell the people on the light syrup. Tell them to try it, it tastes about the same. Down here, most want dark but I have been making majority light but when people try the light, they like it about as well.

I think the biggest key is selling them on it. Majority of it is phsycological anyways.

[DrTimPerkins]

Down here, most want dark but I have been making majority light but when people try the light, they like it about as well.

Another factor is the incorrect assumption/perception on the part of many people that dark syrup has been boiled down longer, and therefore is "thicker". I hear this time after time when we do our education booth at the fair. When we ask people which grade of syrup they want to sample, they often will say, "Give me the thicker stuff there on the end."

[heus]

Another factor is the incorrect assumption/perception on the part of many people that dark syrup has been boiled down longer, and therefore is "thicker". I hear this time after time when we do our education booth at the fair. When we ask people which grade of syrup they want to sample, they often will say, "Give me the thicker stuff there on the end."

Yes I have heard the same thing. A friend of mine was complaining that two years ago he bought some syrup from the Amish and it was runny. He thought he was taken but I think it was just probably light syrup.

[sapman]

Dr. Tim, is it true that leaving sap around, hence increasing the microbes/bacteria, will also cause the sap to lose sugar content? I've heard that the bacteria are feeding on the sugar, thereby reducing it.

[sapman]

Just to chime in on my experience with sugar content in sugars, reds, and silvers, is that my sugars run neck and neck with the other two in my bush. Sugars were actually .05% (actually hard to tell with my equipment) lower. Proving that my bush is pretty low in the sugar department (2% at best).

[KenWP]

After eating my syrup I am spoiled. The light stuff for me is tasteless.
Now Brent if you want some dark syrup I just finished my birch syrup today and it would colour many gallons of light syrup.
My syrup is dark red also. The niter looks like red mud.

[Beweller]

See Centre Acer Project 483.

[red maples]

Yeah, Do you know how many times people ask "what grades are you making this year?" and "Are you making any grade B this year?"

Well hey as we all know its pretty much down to well if I don't clean my tanks, and it all depends on what the trees give me! they kinda look at you like a dog tilting its head!!:)

[Brent]

Ken
If you actually eat that birch stuff you've got a stronger constitution than me. A freind sent me some British Columbia Birch and it reminded me of castor oil. Yukkk.

[Brent]

As I understand it the microbes do eat some of the sugars, but it does not disappear. They convert most of it to invert sugars. These are the sugars that darken syrup as they carmelise. I don't think the total loss of sugars is a big deal. Dr Tim ?

[RileySugarbush]

As I understand it the microbes do eat some of the sugars, but it does not disappear. They convert most of it to invert sugars. These are the sugars that darken syrup as they carmelise. I don't think the total loss of sugars is a big deal. Dr Tim ?

Some friends boiled some cloudy sap that read over 4%. Thought they hit the mother lode. After many hours boiling down 150 gallons or so they got about a gallon of dark syrup and a huge pile of sugar sand. I'd say the bacteria ate the sugar and the density was a concentration of bacteria or bacteria waste.

[Brent]

Riley

As a matter of curiosity did they measure the 4% with a hydrometer or a refractometer. I can see the optical character of cloudy sap changing the reading but I don't think a sap hydrometer would lie.

[RileySugarbush]

Hydrometer. Imagine the disappointment. 24 hour boil on a half pint for a gallon!

[KenWP]

This year I never had any maple sap to boil with it. Last year I boiled birch untill it frustrated me and then finished off the batch with maple and it wasn't bad. This birch is so dark and tastes a lot different believe me. I think it's going to be BBQ sauce.
I just bottled the birch beer and she who needs to be obeyed says it's drinkable.

[sapman]

I have seen ropey, gross, thick-appearing sap. Didn't test it, but I imagine it would float the hydrometer pretty good.

[ADKMAPLE]

I ahve never experienced any of these things that you refer to