Bulk tank sap storage question

[Bucket Head]

Since I've had a lot of free time this season..., I've been doing a lot of thinking and planning for next season. Mainly about sap treatment and storage. Hopefully I'll have more sap next season, but first some questions.

Any refrigeration people out there? What sort of refrigerent/compresor set-up does a milk bulk tank require? I have a 545gal. bulk tank, and I might get a second one, but theres no cooling apparatus with them. I've never seen a functioning dairy set-up. Do they operate on 120 or 220v? Since we can't boil daily, I've toyed with the idea of cooling the sap with the tank(s), so we don't lose it, until we can boil it. Anyone out there do this with their bulk tank? I know some folks drop frozen "sapcubes" in them, but I was wondering if actually refrigerating it was doable.

Here's where it gets interesting. What if a guy was considering an R.O. for next year and had thoughts of ROing the sap and then keeping the concentrate refrigerated in the bulk tank until boiling time? We have kept sap for days without issue early in the season when temps. were cold day and night. What would the difference be if concentrate was also kept cold? We all keep milk in our refrigerators for days without trouble, right?

Next year, one way or the other, were going to have more sap. Either more taps, vacuum on existing taps, or both more taps and vacuum- I'm not sure yet. But I want to get away from extremly long boils and the RO is the only way to avoid that. However, if we can't boil all the "increased sap" daily, I thought storing a smaller amount of concentrate would be ideal.

Whats everybody think of this plan? Is it doable or is it crazy? Anybody out there doing something like this now? I figured it would be a good way to still boil when we could, not lose sap to warm temps. and make more syrup overall. I'm willing to try all sorts of things to make next year more productive than this one!

Steve

[gar]

Being sugar concentrate could you take a small chest freezer and run a pipe from your tank into the freezer and one back to your tank and circulate your concentrate into and out of the freezer while it is running? Concentrate should not freeze because of the sugar but will keep holding tank cold because of circulation? Keep pipe going to tank on bottom of freezer and pipe going in on top. (coldest is always on bottom) May not be the answer your looking for. Just an idea that hit me when reading your thread, and alot cheaper than a refridgeratered milk tank.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: Good luck!

[Bucket Head]

No responses? Nobody has any input for this thread??

Maybe everybody is out cleaning up their equipment. I'll check back later.

Steve

[Bucket Head]

Gar,

We were typing at the same time!

Thats an interesting idea. It might work well with smaller amounts of sap, but I'm afraid I would overtax the freezer with the amount of sap I hope to have next season. I did'nt figure I would harm a bulk tank cooling unit- that what they were designed for. However, I have no idea how much a bulk tank cooler would cost to buy and then to operate. But I really would like to try to "chill" the concentrate so I don't lose it until we boil.

Thanks for the reply.

Steve

[danno]

Steve - unless you add whole bunch more taps, you should have no problem boiling your concentrate while it is still fresh - unless your idea is to hold back concentrate until you have enough to boil?

When I was boling raw sap, I would have day/night long boils and would always have some sap left in the head tank when I closed down.

First year with an RO, and not even recirculating or concentrating very high, longest boil of the year was 3 or 4 hours and head tank was always empty. I need more taps, higher vac., etc. Had plenty of tiem this year to keep all tanks and releaser clean.

I usually held back sap until it was time to RO and then woul dboil right away, as opposed to RO'ing raw sap right away and than hold back boiling.

Regarding keeping sap cold with a milk tank, should work but those units look a bit more costly. Any milk tank I've seen for sale with a working cooling unit usually doubles the price ($2 to 3$/gallon, as opposed to $1/gallon) of the tank.

[danno]

Regarding Gar's suggestion, they sell those beer coolers that do just that. Cooler has a coil that runs through it and the beer goes from warm keg through cooler to the mug. You could continue to recirc. sap that way with no ill effect on the sap or cooler.

[arcticmaple8]

a dairy compressor would be ideal but requires 220v, brazing copper, sucking the system into a vac, filling system with r-22 freon, having a refigeration certification to buy r-22, having gauges to handle the r-22.... You could probably find an old condensing unit fairly cheap (300-500) but it wouldn't be cost efficient unless you could do the work your self or had a friend to do it.

We had 1100 gallons spoil on us, so for next year we are going to put some 3/4 or 1/2 inch black platic, probably a 200 or 300 foot coil, into our storage tank and then pump cold crick water through it to bring it down to temp.

If you have more questions on a cooling unit feel free to call-716-239-1540

Brian

[Bucket Head]

I appreciate the replies guy's.

Danno- The beer cooler is interesting. I don't think I've ever seen one of those units. What do they cost? My idea was to hold concentrate until I had both enough of it and time to boil it. I would rather hold concentrate because it would require less storage space. I did'nt realize a working tank was so much money. I've never seen a "working" one for sale.

Arcticmaple- If I did get a cooling unit it would have to be done on the cheap- were low budget here! How hot outside was it when you lost the 1100 gal. of sap? How warm did the sap get? Did you have a thermometer in it? I thought of the creek or spring water idea too. I have seen older tanks that just had an inlet at one end and an outlet at the other so cold water could flow through it where the insulation and coils are on the newer ones. Its the old "springhouse milk cooling" technology. It worked then and would work today for sap.

On a side note, I have been conducting an experiment the last couple of days with putting a frozen, 5gal. blue jug with two thirds water in it in my tank with about 225gal. of sap in the tank. I've put a "fresh" jug in each morning the last two days. Now I realize it has'nt been real warm and the tank is'nt quite half full, but the temp. has'nt gone over 40 degrees. An hour ago it was 37 degrees. We'll see what happens in a couple of days when it will be much warmer out. A full tank would be another story also. However, I'm surprised with how cool it is right now. Maybe a "rotating frozen jug program" would keep my sap where it needs to be? I just did'nt think those would handle it, but maybe I'm wrong. I guess the jury is still out on that?

Either way, I'm going to come up with a doable plan to keep sap for next season. I hope to have more of it and not repeat the fiasco that this season was.

Steve

[arcticmaple8]

we did not have a thermometer in it until the next day when we found it was 60 - 65 degrees. We have a old 10 wheeler milk truck tank for storage and its insulated. We are kind of new at this and did not realize our sap was coming in at 60 untill it was too late. But we figured since the tank is insulated we could get it down to temp and it should stay cool. We also has a crick close by, the ice jugs is a good idea, very cost effective. The cooling unit idea, like you said, would probably cost too much. If you get sick of ice jugs a $100 pump and 50-100 for some line to get crick water to your tank would be fairly cheap. Or if you are close to a water supply such as a hose spicket it would just cost hose to run water through. I figure if there is ice in the crick i could cool the sap well but i'm not sure how much our crick warmed up the last couple weeks, this would be another factor to consider. Well good luck

[gar]

You mentioned you have a crek near by? Watch yard sales or what ever,pick up a swimming pool pump cheap. pump cold creek water through a copper coil in your tank! I use an old pool punp for transfering sap from my truck to my holding tank with 3/4 black water pipe. 300 gallons in about 5min. Works great! :lol:

[PerryW]

You could always freeze up a whole pile of gallon jugs filled with water in a chest freezer and use them as giant ice cubes.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Bucket head Your thinking in the right direction. First most of my tanks still have enough line coming off the tank coils to attach a new compressor unit to it. You wouldnt need to go back to the R22 coolant because you would be upgrading the comp side and the coils dont care what you shove thru them. Your not trying to freeze the water in 1/2 hr so start looking for a large chest freezer unit that works and pull the complete unit out. YES you should get it done right buy a HVAC guy he can back the coolant into the comp and then hook it up. A good clean tank that doesnt have dirt in the line is best. You can put the unit in the sap shack so the heat that gets generated can keep the room warm during the off time.

I was toying with the idea of heating my tank with arch hydronic water during the full boil days so I could get the temp from the tank up 20-30 degrees before it went into the head tank. I can empty a bulk tank in 3hrs so bacteria isnt a problem. We boil every day that the sap runs so we run thru it fast. Call around to Commercial HVAC guys and they will have the units laying aroud from refits. Keep in mind that cooling units dont have minds and they dont care what they get hooked up to:)

[KenWP]

Useing the crick water is basically just like a swamp cooler AC unit. This time of year the water in a crick would be cold enough to cool the tank. If you use 3/4 it will give you more surface area then 1/2 inch and also you would use more of the cold from the water before it went through the lines.

[Bucket Head]

Perry W.- I've been experimenting with frozen water filled 5gal. blue bulk jugs. They are working better than I thought they would, even with the really warm temps. I have 225gal. of nasty sap in a 545gal. tank and I have put a "fresh" (fully frozen) jug in each morning this week. When I got home each day I checked the temp. It was 36 on tues., 37 on Weds. and today at 5pm it was 38.5, and it was 66 outside. Tommorow its supposed to be 75 so I'm going to keep the experiment going and try two jugs to see how they do with the heat. Going by what I've seen so far, the frozen jugs should have no problem keeping sap safely cooled in normal March and April temps.

Hayne's- The old freezer unit is a good idea. I never would have thought of that. Do you think an old unit that was 120v would be able to do it allright? Would it really have to "work" compared to the standard 220v cooling unit? Just wondering. I would'nt want to overheat it. But, then again, I would'nt be freezing anything would I. It would just be cooling the sap, which would be easier than keeping food frozen solid. Going to a HVAC shop for one is a good idea.

Steve

[brookledge]

The problem I see with most dairy tanks is that the freon system is shot in the tank and that is why many of them are sold so cheap. dairy tanks that are still hooked up to the compressor will usually cost a lot of money, not that a deal can't be found.
I have many and all where sold without the compressors. Last yr I bought a 1500 gal tank from a dairy farmer and he said that the freon line leaked some where inside the tank. He would charge up the system and before long it would be gone. I suppose you could try to run cold water throught the lines but then it would freeze in the lines and split them.
I do agree that if you had a working compressor hooked up to one that would be the way to go

Keith

[Haynes Forest Products]

Most units failed in the comp units so I would pressure test the coil. You dont need a big hugh unit to do the cooling it just does it quicker if you match the unit to the coil size. I think cooling it this way makes more sence than getting all the envioromental studys to get a creek to move near your sap shack even if you could find one to buy:lol:

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I use the 9 quart aluminum sap buckets and put 4 or 5 in the freezer each day full when I have to hold sap for a while. They work great because the go from smaller at the bottom to larger at the top. I have a 625 gallon sunset milk tank and throw the frozen buckets inside and they float right to the top and within a minute or less, the ice slides out and fill them and back into the freezer. I have an old deep freeze in the sugarhouse and a lot fot times, you can find them free for hauling or $ 50 or less.

This is simple, cheap, and works good.

[Haynes Forest Products]

WVM so your freezing sap and not water so its a wash as far as it melting?

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Why freeze water as sap freezes just as easy as water. Problem I have with freezing 5 gallon buckets is that I have seen them freeze hard enough it bulges the bottom out to the point it fails. I like the 9 quart aluminum sap buckets, easy to handle and ice comes out so easy.

[Bucket Head]

I ended my cold sap experiment late Sat. afternoon. Sat. temps. were into the eighties and my tank does get direct sunlight until late morning.

With two frozen 5gal. jugs in the sap, the sap temp. did not go over 42 degrees! I thought that was pretty impressive. I did not know how cold a bulk tank would keep sap, but now I know.

Its safe to say that during sap season, with normal sap season temps., just a little ice will keep sap cold enough to keep it a little while. I should add that the ice in the jugs was not fully melted either. If I rattled the jug, you could hear and feel the remainder of the ice in the jug. So that same jug would stay plenty cold for days during the season.

Steve

[Haynes Forest Products]

BUCKET HEAD so are you saying we are not going to be following your escapades of getting the bulk tank up and running:cry:

[Bucket Head]

"Escapades", lol! Actually, the word escapade, sometimes, is the best way to describe maple sugaring!

If I do put refrigeration back to it you guys will hear about it. If I can come up with a suitable unit for it, great. If I can't, then the ice trick seems like it would be a decent "Plan B". We'll see what happens between now and next season.

Steve

[maple sapper]

You could probably use a circulator pump for a boiler to run the creak water a bit slower to get more transfer. I would probably do two things also. First I would line the outside of my tank with that foil faced bubble wrap insulation thats out now. I have gotten it at HD or lowes. I have made cloaks for 5 gal. buckets of sap storage for warm times. So if you have a hvac duct insulation stapler you can custom cut it and staple it and make seams. Then you will retain the cold a bit more. If you wanted to go nutty double layer it. I use this material to cover all my tanks and when its freezing it takes a while to loose those ice chunks.
Secondly, You can use that black foam pipe wrap to conceal the line up to the tank. The return you dont care about. The line up to the tank you could use black poly. The coil I'd use copper for greater temperature transfer. Of course the more feet of it the better would insure the when that water exits, its grabbed some btu's out of the tank. This idea is almost like reverse geothermal. If you bought copper ref. tubing its already wound up in a circle. Just spread it out. Maybe use two sections and solder them with an appropriate fitting. This task is so easy for me for the simple fact that FW webb plumbing supply is a half mile from me. :D

[Haynes Forest Products]

Maple Sapper its my nature so please dont take this wrong but. When your trying to keep the cold in a tank are'nt you really trying to keep the heat out? So what good does the foil do. :)

[maple sapper]

I guess maybe a little more explaination is needed on the foil. In some cases if your tank is not shadded or mostly shadded like mine, I protect the sunny side with a shield to keep the sun from creating a green house out of my tank. If your in a totally shadded area maybe not necessary. If one is going to pump cold water through a coil in the tank and the air temps are warmer then the water and sap, the insulation would be doing the right thing. It would be more benificial at the end of the season then at the beginning. Just like if the weather is already cold enough you wouldnt be pumping through the coil. So yes your trying to keep the heat out. And with a big enough coil, your leaving the cold in and pulling the heat out. By the time the water is exiting, its absorbed enought "heat" (miro amounts now keep in mind) to bring the temp of the tank down if not maintain it.

[Big_Eddy]

I use the 9 quart aluminum sap buckets and put 4 or 5 in the freezer each day full when I have to hold sap for a while. They work great because the go from smaller at the bottom to larger at the top. I have a 625 gallon sunset milk tank and throw the frozen buckets inside and they float right to the top and within a minute or less, the ice slides out and fill them and back into the freezer. I have an old deep freeze in the sugarhouse and a lot fot times, you can find them free for hauling or $ 50 or less.

This is simple, cheap, and works good.

Westvirginiamapler has the solution. Same as I do - Fill a few sap pails with sap, drop them in an old freezer overnight, dump them in the tank in the morning and refill and back in the freezer. Sap - even concentrated - will freeze fine overnight in even the smallest chest freezer, and the "block" slides right out of the sap pails. 1 "block" will keep 100 gals cool all day as long as the tank is not in the sun. Increase or decrease the number of blocks added to account for what's melted. You can also store partially boiled sap in there almost indefinitely, for those of you who drain your flue pans when you're expecting a long time between boils. Speeds up the sweetening process next time around.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Thanks Mapple Sapper I agree with the expenation. I think a quick fix is a moving pad and a SPACE blanket ovrt the entire rig. Had a few years when the sap was freezing solid in the tank. Had to hang a lite in it and wrap with blankets.

[ADKMAPLE]

Bideddy's idea is what I will do for sure, whenever I get my operation up and running!

[Beweller]

Boil your sap as it arrives to sterilize it. Your evaporator will have a boiling capacity about ten times its evaporating capacity. Running the sap through a counterflow heat exchanger makes the capacity even higher and reduces the temperature of the boiled sap. Experiments needed to investigate the storage of warm, sterilized sap. Or add a refrigerated cooling system. Or maybe a sap-to-air (or -creek water) cooler. (Hot storage is probably a bad idea, but who knows until it is tried.)

Micro filter the sap in a recirculating system. Continually removes yeast, fungi and bacteria. RO pre-filters will probably do the job. Filters using filter aid might also work.

Insulate any tanks cooled by refrigeration. Pay attention to how the tank is supported. Heat leaks of insulated tanks are often dominated by heat leaking through the supports.

[Hurry Hill Farm]

Hi Steve and others,

I read with interest all your comments on sap storage, bulk tanks etc. One thing I saw a few years back (I think in NY) both cooled the sap in the bulk tank and concentrated sap was a long cooling coil through the sap in a bulk tank. I believe, but am not sure, the tank was insulated and was not water cooled. The coil submerged in the sap was cooling the sap but also made the sap freeze to the coil several inches thick. Thought it was a clever way to concentrate the sap, remove water and keep the whole works cool until boiling time.

Jan Woods
Didn't even hang any buckets this year - 5 feet of snow March 1 and then no season when I finally got into the woods March 13 (only .3 inch measureable snow in March and two nights in March with a nighttime temp of 20's. The inconvenient truth is" mother nature is in charge!!

[Bucket Head]

You did'nt miss anything! Had I known this season was going to be what it was, I would'nt have drilled a single hole myself. I would have spent the time preparing for next season. This season was a complete waste of time for most "gravity guys" like myself.

I am going to experiment more with UV and cooling the sap next season. Well, that is if there is sap next year...

I'm supposed to pick up another tank this weekend so I'll have more storage for my experiments, lol. Lets hope that next year is better for everyone!

Steve

[maple flats]

Good luck Bucket Head. I also have an old springwater tank i got free. Had it for 3-4 years, haven't cleaned it up or made covers for it yet. I think I will for next year. My problem is i have no creek and if I drilled a well (I have my own well drill, toy sized) it might not be cold enough because most wells are often 45- 50 degrees, not enough below the max desired sap temp to work. I'll likely just use it as a storage tank. If you are looking for a cooler, Bascom's has had a plate cooler listed for a long time. Just set it in the tank and pump cold water thru, lots of surface to heat exchange with.