stringy colloidal part syrup

[Brent]

Today I was getting set to start boiling again for the first time since Thursday afternnoon and found the near syrup in the syrup pan had turnded to a stringy colloidal suspension mess. The flavor seemed good but the consistency was something I had never seen before.

Then I checked the flue pan and it was the same. Pretty good flavor but stringy. No alcohol fermented smell or flavor.

I've drawn it all off into pails.

Should I dump it or will it still make good syrup ???


EDIT

this is getting worse. I just checked a tote (275 Gal.) that has been through the RO and it has a slight alcoholic smell to it.

so the second question is what to do with this. It's about 8% so it represents a lot of syrup.

[KenWP]

I take it that it is fron buddy trees. Send it over here and I will make syrup out of it for my project coming up.

[Brent]

No Ken its not buddy. I've been there a few years ago with the Half Pint. That stuff is so foul you don't want to be anywhere near it.

This stuff tastes pretty good, does not smell. Just has gone stringy, like mucous. Sounds appetizing eh ?

[lew]

Several years ago we had a very long, late season. I t didn't end until April 24. I wanted to say that I made syrup in May so I waited until the first of may to finish off the syrup in the pans. It was not terribly warm as I remember. The almost syrup in the flat pan finshed normally, but once the stuff in the flue pan started coming into the flat pan, I smelled smoke. Luckily we are oil fired and all that needed to be done was hit the switch. The flue pan had gone stringy and would not cool the pan enough to keep it from scorching no matter how deep it was. It was stringy, ropey nasty stuff. I figure that little experiment cost me 1 barrel of syrup(that's what our evaporator holds when you finish it off). Everyone always has a different set of circumstances, so to be safe, I would try boiling some from each pan and tote in a small sauce pan over a high flame and see what happens. I'd hate to see you burn up a rig.

[farmall h]

Brent, maybe you boiled a squirrell?:lol:

[caseyssugarshack93]

sounds to me you got ropy sap, Keep boiling, if you can keep it in the pans, its hard to boil, i have a hard time last year with it but still got it into the barrel,

[H. Walker]

Brent, dump it. The bulk buyer that used to be in my area would buy almost any syrup BUT NOT ropey syrup. He said it was made with sour sap.

[Brent]

OK so after I've been infected with this Jello like junk what do I do to get rid of it ?

Will it keep growing in the tanks, RO and evaporator.

Obviously boiling temps do not kill off whatever causes it.
I've been dumping down the sink and the stuff that came out of the flue pan is the worst. The stuff from the syrup pan was just stringing. The flue pan stuff was almost like runny Jello.

[caseyssugarshack93]

my bulk buyer buys ropey syrup... still get money for a barrel so i would keep it,

[Brent]

When I emptied the evaporator and feed tank I used my hot pack 5Gallon pails. Do I need to nuc them to kill this stuff ? Javex ?

I'm afraid to use these brand new pails now.

[Brent]

We may be on to something

I discovered that yesterday we were putting in almost 10 times the normal defoamer. I also learned that Leader's defoamer is a marine product. Some seaweed products are used in everything from toothpast to foods to thicken them.

Hmmmmm. ?????????

[wnybassman]

Hmmmmm, maple jelly?

[farmall h]

Brent, you say you are using defoamer. How much? I don't understand why some folks have a "defoamer-cup" over their evaporator. I use defoamer but not very often...maybe once or twice in a five hour boil. When I use it I don't even take the cap off...just wave it in the bubbles. Too much defoamer in your sap WILL make your syrup greasy. Just my thoughts.

Just to add...the only time defoamer is used is if the foam is about to roll out and over the front pan. Defoamer usage? I guess I don't understand when your using it. Just 'cause you have bubbles doesn't mean defoam, defoam, defoam. The evaporator is made with a flared in shape to keep the rlling bubbles in the pan. I need more info!!!!

[Brent]

I was taught to defoam and fire every six minutes. Just 3 drops for my size evap. Not sure if that came from the forum, the bible or my dealer. But I was given an update from the dealer this week. He does it religiously. Has a 6 minute egg timer, every time it goes off he adds the drops.
He runs 3500 taps.

Tonight I am even more convinced it was the defoamer. There is not way that if it was a bacteria or microbe, that we cleaned it out of the system. Made 7 gallons so far tonight and when I turn off the spout on the filter, it drips. Last night it would just make a long spaghetti string from the spout to the pail.

Big sigh of releif

[johnallin]

Brent,
Wow pretty crazy stuff there. Do you think it was the defoamer or just some bad sap? Sounds like more stringy syrup stories this year than the past 3; any ideas what caused it and why it went away?

[Brent]

I think it was totally human error.

We collected from the same pipeline, hauled it in the same tanks, ran it through the same RO, pumped it into the same overhead. All I did different was wash out the evap because I was sure it was so thick it would scorch.

Tonight, up to 10 gallons now of great stuff.

[johnallin]

Do you think the pans were getting skunky? In an earlier thread someone had the same stringy issues; seems it was nitre build-up.

me, I only got to boil 5 times this year for a total of about 14 hours - although 7 times the gal/hr than the 1/2 pint -but am wondering when it's time to clean pans for future reference.

[Brent]

I do too much of this by myself, and after 2 years of long delays in boiling I finally got a second syrup pan and clean it while boiling with the other. There are other ways. Haynes empties his syrup pan into pails, fills it with a vinegar solution and says its clean in the morning. Draws off the vinegar to re-use it the next night, pours the semi-syrup back in and goes at it.

I change to a clean syrup pan every day. Yesterday I hosed out the flue pan only because of the slime. Last 2 years I did not clean the flue pan at all. That may change this year because we have so many more taps. On the other hand they're forecasting the beginning of summer on Wednesday. Full stop.

[farmall h]

Brent, your really confusing the heck out of me. Put that defoamer under lock & key and give it to your neighbor 2 miles down the road! I don't mean to sound like a know it all 'cause I don't. I have had the same little unit of defoamer(leader) for gosh...20 years. Like I said and I will stress very heavily that over usage of the defoamer will cause your syrup to be greasy..seen and done it years ago. Maybe the 20,000 tap guys use it due to the amount of sap being processed. Another thing...always rinse out your tanks when they become empty...that's where the sour occurs. I have never drained my flue pan during the season. Let her boil and boil hard!!!

[Brent]

I've only been at this 5 years and used the same Leader defoamer since day 1. Never had greasy syrup. Mind you until this weekend never had ropy syrup either.

Three boils now since the ropy incident and no re-occurrance. We had a small communication problem.
I was talking about controlling foam.
"But there are still bubbles"
Hmmmm yup it's boiling.

[KenWP]

I would say you got some kind of contamination that made it go ropey. The defoamer would not make it do that as it's just a fat product to cut down surface tension so it dosn't foam. Some of it probbably hangs up in the filters afterwards anyways. My one pan will foam up and I put a drop of olive oil in and the sounds comes back of the pan boiling.

[farmall h]

Brent...so which neighbor has the defoamer now?:)

[Brent]

I hear you Ken, but I did not go through any sterilizing proceedures, and have made over 30 gallons since with no more ropy stuff.

This is not scientific, just an observation.
Excess defoamer - ropy for 1 day
Normal defoamer - normal syrup.

Yesterdays second tote was sap the was concentrated to 6% 2 or 3 days ago. Smelled just a little alcoholic. I was pretty nervous when we switched to it. Because it had been sitting around it tended to foam up much more than normal. It took maybe between 50% and 100% more defoamer to keep it under control, but it never went ropy.

Might try to replicate it in the kitchen.

[Brent]

Well I think I've got to eat my words on this one.

I found gelatinous goo up in the rafters in the gravity feed tank. No way the foaming did that.

One more for the book.

[KenWP]

Hmmmmmmmmmmm Hmmmmmmmmmmmm Hmmmmmmm I knew it couldn't be the defoamer as nobody else has ever had the problem so far. You either have trees trying to bud or a bug someplace.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Fellow producer down the road uses defoamer like he's putting cooking oil on the grittle at Waffel House. He is a man of hard habits and was taught one way and thats it. I tend to use alot of defoamer and have not seen ill effects from it. Other friend uses cream from the barn and spoons it in every time they check. I was taught to prevent foaming if possible not to cure it.

[Stickey]

Brent, I had it too. I don't use de foamer. Slimey sap in my pans. At first I thought it was the temperature and sugar concentration giving a viscous appearance. I cooked it for a while and it didn't go away, so I added some fresh sap. After a while i was able to skim it off the surface. I was thinking algae? I have not finished that batch, it is in my fridge. I ate some, tasted ok, I didn't ralf or keel over. I would throw it out, but I haven't made much syrup this year. I don't sell it, just make it for myself. I emptied and cleaned my pans, going to try to cook one more time this year. Discouraging year for me.

[Brent]

Yeh the slime we made tasted OK too. But we sell at least half what we make and the rest is for friends. I couldn't do anything but dump it.

[riderlow23]

I had 2 batches turn out this way, cant think of anything I did different than in the past. if i boil some water and add it in will it fix it?

[lew]

I hear you Ken, but I did not go through any sterilizing proceedures, and have made over 30 gallons since with no more ropy stuff.

This is not scientific, just an observation.
Excess defoamer - ropy for 1 day
Normal defoamer - normal syrup.

Yesterdays second tote was sap the was concentrated to 6% 2 or 3 days ago. Smelled just a little alcoholic. I was pretty nervous when we switched to it. Because it had been sitting around it tended to foam up much more than normal. It took maybe between 50% and 100% more defoamer to keep it under control, but it never went ropy.

Might try to replicate it in the kitchen.

From the sounds of things I think your sap got infected with some kind of basteria or "bug". Letting sap set around for a couple of days, especially concentrated sap, can lead to problems such as lots of foam, alcohol smell, sap color change, cloudy sap, and ropey sap.

[KenWP]

Yeh the slime we made tasted OK too. But we sell at least half what we make and the rest is for friends. I couldn't do anything but dump it.

I would make wine or distill it before I thru it out. She who has to be obeyed is mush easier to handle tippsy then non tipsy.

[alltapped out]

I have been told if you dont cook with your evaporator for even as little as a day the sap left in the flu pan can become ropey. This may explain how people can have a batch of ropey syrup followed up by batchs of syrup that is fine. I have been told although sap does get cloudy, the sap directly from the tree isn't ropey. If the ropey syrup taste good and you can manage to get it through a filter press it is just fine. Most buyers don't want it because it is hard to filter. This is all info I have received from talking to some of the larger producers in the area. If anyone can prove this wrong I am always willing to be better informed.

[Brent]

We got ropy stuff 2 years in a row during weeks where we boiled every day. The only thing we did different to most guys is to leave the complete sugar shack warm overnight to prevent freezing the RO membranes. Before we had the RO and let the shack cool down each night we never had a problem. This year we had the RO in a separate enclosure and chilled down the sugar shack as fast as possible at the end of each day. We also washed out the overhead feed tank ( up high in the warmest air in the sugar shack ). Also before we got the RO we did have "days off" when we didn't boil without a problem. I think the warm room and the concentrated sap in the overhead tank and it's lines were contributing factors.

So we have a semi-science emprical study of 1 sugarmaker trying to draw conclusions from 5 years of observation. I doesn't "prove" anything.
I'd love to hear if Dr. Tim has some real input on this. I sure cost us a lot of dumped syrup.

[DrTimPerkins]

So we have a semi-science emprical study of 1 sugarmaker trying to draw conclusions from 5 years of observation. I doesn't "prove" anything. I'd love to hear if Dr. Tim has some real input on this. I sure cost us a lot of dumped syrup.

Ropey syrup is caused by several types of microrganism, often Aerobacter (formerly Enterobacter) aerogenes. This is a fairly common spoilage bacteria, also involved in souring of milk, meat spoilage, vinegar spoilage, etc. The slime is due to excessive bacterial bodies (kind of like the slime that will develop on sliced meat or chicken if left too long). It grows very rapidly at the end of the season when things are quite warm. Makes the syrup impossible to filter. Time to stop making syrup at that point....or, if you really want to keep going, dump every tank and empty the evaporator, clean everything VERY well, and then start over.

The better job you can do filtering the sap, killing the microorganisms with UV, and processing the sap or concentrate when it is cold, the lower the level of the bacteria. Obviously warm weather makes they grow faster as well. Basically -- keep sap cold, keep the sap and tanks clean, and process as quicly as you can. Fire up the evaporator every day just to kill what is in the sweet. Even then....no guarantees.

[Brent]

Thanks for the response Tim. That's what I figured was going on. We added a Sap Steady UV part way through this season.
Hopefully we can manage never to see it again.

[Sugarmaker]

After searching on this topic, I wanted to bring this thread back to life since I have made some ropy syrup near the end of both the last two seasons. Both seasons had very warm spells and the gathering containers got contaminated with some slime in the bottom and cloudy sap too. I even cleaned them once, Guess it wasn't enough! Then it set in the evaporator for several days when the temp dropped off. I had a heater under the pans to keep them from freezing too. That extra heat probably didn't help.
So I have all of this ropy syrup moved to just the front pan about 6 inches deep. I think I will boil water in the back pan and try to finish it. Will see what it smells like when boiling too. Or I could just dump it??
I could tell this was coming because I seen some of the last dark syrup we made had a string coming from a spoon rather that a drip.
Like most folks I just hate to dump 5+ gallons of syrup! But I don't need syrup that I cant use either. Not sure our local bulk buyers would want it either?
I guess my concern is, will it boil, and filter ok?? Sounds like some folks have had problems with both issues. Sure don't want to burn the pan either.
I think this means the season is done!:)
Just venting, and still learning! Thanks for listening!
Regards,
Chris

[DrTimPerkins]

So I have all of this ropy syrup moved to just the front pan about 6 inches deep. I think I will boil water in the back pan and try to finish it. Will see what it smells like when boiling too. Or I could just dump it??

Boiling ropey syrup risks burning your pan (it's like boiling jello). You can't get a proper density on it, it won't filter, you won't want to eat it, and you generally can't sell it (packers can't filter it either). Sorry to say that the best approach is to cut your losses and dump it. Maybe good for pig feed?

[unc23win]

So is it possible to have ropey syrup taste good?

[DrTimPerkins]

So is it possible to have ropey syrup taste good?

Sure, but it would be hard to know the density, next to impossible to filter, and would be full of microbial snot.

[Trapper2]

Boiling ropey syrup risks burning your pan (it's like boiling jello). You can't get a proper density on it, it won't filter, you won't want to eat it, and you generally can't sell it (packers can't filter it either). Sorry to say that the best approach is to cut your losses and dump it. Maybe good for pig feed?

Or maybe bear bait if legal in your area.

[GeneralStark]

It depends on the degree of "ropeyness". I have made some that would not filter and certainly was not fit for much of anything, but I have also made some that was only slightly ropey, filtered fine and tasted great.

[unc23win]

It depends on the degree of "ropeyness". I have made some that would not filter and certainly was not fit for much of anything, but I have also made some that was only slightly ropey, filtered fine and tasted great.


This is my concern exactly. I am guessing the hard to know density refers to the the proper cold density? I'm hoping to learn when to quit.

[Sugarmaker]

Folks,
Yes I had some syrup that was stringy too. That I believe I can use.

Front pan with 6 inches deep ropey syrup, froze about 30%. I had to heat it to melt the ice. Slight sour smell to the steam. Very aggressive foaming that defoamer would not touch. Controlled drained the syrup pan and chased the bad syrup out with water. Also sprayed the foam with water and this helped drop the foam level.
Dumped the ropey syrup and got on with life! I really don't like making bad syrup! That is not my goal! So this was not a good experience. We are done for the 2017 season, and learned some things!
Thanks Dr Tim and the others for responding.
Regards,
Chris

[GeneralStark]

The recent times I have made it, I am 95% sure it was not due to the sap that was flowing into the pans but was instead due to fermentation that occurred either in the flue pan float box, the syrup pan float box, or the preheater...