home made releaser input wanted

[maple sapper]

Last weekend with cabin fever from all the rain and no sap to boil, I made my own releaser. I call it the PVC 1100. The pvc is the obvious part and the 1100 is due to the 11 sec dump time. It has a small engineering issue that I would like some input on.

First let me describe the unit. Its made up of a 4" pvc t-wye with clean outs on the top and a bushing on the bottom to adapt it to pipe. There is two check valves in series with the releaser in between just like the glass releaser set up that been posted by Dennis. The short grey conduit on the front is for the magnetic level sensor switch. There is a solenoid valve on the top of the wye clean out with a tee to keep rain water from entry. The vac is pretty self explainatory. In the grey box is a time delay relay. The unit is powerd by a 12v deep cycle marine battery on a solar panel. The scary part is most this stuff is hanging around my inventory in my shop.

So here is the design issue that needs to be ironed out. There is sap making it into the vac line even after my "sap trap" to the left in the picture. When the sap level is rising, you can hear it bubbling, probably due to the air in the system being pulled by the vac. As the sap level is rising, I think its spashing around inside and getting pulled up by the vac. Then whats happening is it doesnt seem to be being collected in the "sap trap". I have a racket ball inside there incase of a failure it will block the vac line. But sap is making it past the sap trap. I am assuming not one drop of sap should make it into the vac pump. So, my thought is to add some height to the releaser with some fittings to get the vac fitting higher above the sap level at switch. That way the bubbling wont get picked up (I hope). Input on this would be great.

The other picture is my temporay pump house. Made out of three pallets and some plywood. Keeps it dry anyway.

[Gary R]

I don't know much about releasers. I'm having a hard time following the process. Would you not want the sap to the releaser to connect where the soleniod valve is? Then have 2 valves. One normaly open at the top to allow vac in. The other normaly closed at the bottom. When the sap hits your sensor, both change state. The sap then drains out the bottom into a tank? Also, I think the thing may need to be longer at the bottom and the sensor below the top of the inside of the "Y" so sap isn't sucked to the trap. Make any sense?

[maple sapper]

I dont suppose what you stated could be done as well. The cost of solenoid valves is high and if I needed two then Id be more inclined to get a releaser from a maple supplier or find used one.

The process works as follows: The vac is pulled to the pump through the top of the t-wye. There is two check valves. The one down stream gets pulled closed by the vac. The upstream one is pulled open by the vac. These are the green parts in the pic. The vac pulls the sap up into the t-wye and once the level sensor is triggered the relay triggers the solenoid valve to open for 11 seconds and it breaks the vac. The sap then dumps out due to the down stream check valve being pulled closed by the vac. The up stream check is closed by the remaining vac in the system. So the upstream one maintains the vac. Then it starts all over again.

I am going to try unthreading the top cap where vac line is plugged in now. Then thread a male adapter into the top. Then a short section of pipe and and a new female adapter. Put the existing cap back on and hopefully problem solved. This will get the vac hook up away from the splashing thats happening. If I added more to the lower end, I still have to move the switch down. Then I would have a hole. So going up makes more sense. Besides, the bottom is all glued.

[vtjeeper]

I am going to try unthreading the top cap where vac line is plugged in now. Then thread a male adapter into the top. Then a short section of pipe and and a new female adapter. Put the existing cap back on and hopefully problem solved. This will get the vac hook up away from the splashing thats happening. If I added more to the lower end, I still have to move the switch down. Then I would have a hole. So going up makes more sense. Besides, the bottom is all glued.

looks good. seems like a little more space at the top would be a good thing.

so from the green check valve to the trees does not lose vacuum but there is not vacuum shut off from the releaser back to the pump right? so when it dumps, the vacuum is sucking air in through the solenoid still?

I have been thinking about it for a while and may try to make an electric pump releaser with a sump pump and a dual float switch. I'd do solenoids if it would be cheaper but am unsure. have to look for them some more.

[maple sapper]

Yes the vac is broken by the solenoid valve. Much like the glass releasers are by a mechanical float. The dump takes 11 seconds so not really a huge deal considering the pump is 25 ft from the releaser. Once the vac is restablished it starts all over. If I had sap flow I could sit and watch it perform. I hope to find out by end of week, so long as I get my taps to bleed some more after being sitting for some time now. :( . I also got some input form others and decided to try running my vac line up over a tree branch and lowering the "sap trap' below my releaser and this should force any moisture to go into sap trap and stay at the bottom to be drained daily. This is a work in progress.

[vtjeeper]

I also got some input form others and decided to try running my vac line up over a tree branch and lowering the "sap trap' below my releaser and this should force any moisture to go into sap trap and stay at the bottom to be drained daily. This is a work in progress.

I was thinking I have seen vac lines coming off the releaser and going straight up a few feet before bending over to horizontal. I would guess any sap would naturally not want to flow up too far, you do have it pretty compact right now

[maple sapper]

I guess adding a big chunky pvc would be the same result as getting the clear line totally vertical for a few feet before going into the sap trap. This may be an easier fix that way. New piece of clear tubing is all Id need, and height of course.

[tom jr.]

If u have sap splashing around in their then that means u have an air leak someware in the system. if u dont get rid of the air leak that vac pump will suck sap threw itself no matter how meny moisture traps u have. get rid of the leak and u will be in buisness:)

[farmall h]

Maplesapper, do you have a vent valve of somesort to release the air during dump? Also, where is the dumping entering, main line?

Ps, try running water through instead of waiting for sap flow...that will tell you right off if it is working properly.

[maple sapper]

I tested the releaser with water in one pail and dumping into a second pail. It did super. But a shop test did not have the true read on things that exist in the real world. Things like tree gases and air leaks. I have tightend up a few things I could see. And yes if you go to the bottom of this thread the pics of my releaser are there. The air vent is on the top on the right. Its a solenoid valve with a ss tee on top to keep out rain.

Today it ran non stop. I got to watch it a bit. I think I am going to change the design a bit. I am going to add on to the wye area with a tee going horiaontal. This will be like a sap inlet area. So it will allow the sap to come in and flow down. Rather then have the vac pulling from the bottom and up through the collected sap. It will flow in from the upper levels. Whats happening is my main line is holding a s load of sap. The spot where the level sensor switch is up 2/3 on the releaser. So if the main is below that and water seeks it own level. That tells me there is a car load of sap to the point that its level with the switch. That goes back pretty far. Then when it dumps, it moves down and grabs the next batch. So by having it dump into the relaeaser, it will prevent the sap from waiting its turn, so to speak.

[farmall h]

I hate it when trees fart! All that gas....:lol:

[arcticmaple8]

1633

you seem to be creating a large amount of turbulence over the sap try moving the solenoid closer to vac inlet. turbulence carries sap upward into your trap. Not a good thing for vein pumps, we have a dairy trap but turbulence will sometimes over come it due to poor location of our regulator(on top of our trap). Thinner veins such as delaval are more likely to snap if direct water goes into pump.

[Haynes Forest Products]

I think there is some cool looking valves on Ebay that might make a nice releaser Item No 390174774740 Please dont ask me how to use them I just think they look good and shinny and are for vacuum:)

[farmall h]

They may be cool and shiny Haynes but......are the "food grade"?:rolleyes:

[Haynes Forest Products]

Im thinking they might be. Was on line trying to see what they do if there for vacuum air or liquid

[farmall h]

Im thinking they might be. Was on line trying to see what they do if there for vacuum air or liquid

Got a brand and I'll go to a "work" site of mine.

[maple sapper]

I reworked my pvc releaser. Pictures to come soon. I made it a bit different this time. Its set up so the sap enters at the top and has to drop down to the bottom with a check valve that is held shut by the vac. Moved the vac line up by entry point but yet still a little away from where sap travels. It is close to the solenoid valve also. The sap was not running fast enough for the time I had to stay around and hear it actually dump. I did test it with water with a timer so I could set the dump time on the relay. It seemed to increase my vac by a few points too. Probably due to the lack of restriction of the weight of the column of sap it was lifting into the old releaser at the same time as its trying to pull through it. I also increased the holding area from a 4" pvc fitting to a 6". so it holds a 1 3/4 gal per dumping. I may even maket this one. Could be just cause its my own brain work, but I love it. Good for a smaller newbe vac guy like me.

[maple sapper]

Arcticmaple,
The problem was at first that The air in the system was being pulled through the sap cause it entered and exited the releaser fromt the bottom. The So once I fixed a few major squirl chews and removed some latterals that didnt get used this year, Things smoothed out alot. Then I put a 8 ft. vertical rise on my vac line up over an above tree branch and it all good after that. But my new model has more capacity so it will not dump as often and will allow me to add more taps. Secondly, increased the vac. So thanks for your input.

[farmall h]

Maplesapper...I need visuals...visuals! I modified one of the Bender releaser jars into a PVC version by utilizing the vac mechanism and float. It is larger capacity and dumps faster than the original glass model yet I have to keep adding weight in order to increase vac on the line. They were not made for more than 15-18". I got it pulling 20" and my set up is leak free. It works but I would like to make one with electric assist with out the need for mechanical as well as have it switch when dumping to have constant vac on line. Maybe a double sap tank. Sorta like the double milkcan releaser on youtube.

[maple sapper]

Farmall h, I got the pic on my phone. So I need to email it to myself then move it to a folder. I will do that when I get to my computer in a bit. It will be tonight.

[maple sapper]

After reading your post on modifying a bender with pvc, you could maybe try what I did and put a check valve on the front of the releaser and one on the back side. so when dumping the vac in the system sucks it shut and the vac will seal the lower one when done. Or you could use a relay like what i used thats multi purpose and have it controll a second valve to switch the vac around the releaser. I dont loose any vac when dumping due to the check. I guess it depends how many taps your running too. I have 150 on the vac so its not like I have tidal waves of sap coming in.

[maple sapper]

Here she is. I introduce you to the PVC 2000! I have it set up to accept a second mainline on the opposite side of the shown mainline coming in.

[arcticmaple8]

That is a very nice looking homemade releaser thanks for sharing the pics good luck

[BRL]

Awesome work MapleSapper!

[Housewright]

What kind of solenoid valve and control are you using ? Where did you get them?

[BRL]

If I was to guess I would say he is using an Asco Red Hat Valve. Here is another option, people seem to have good luck with these in the brewing world, and the prices are good.

http://cgi.ebay.com/1-4-Electric-Solenoid-Valve-12V-DC-Air-Gas-Diesel-B20N_W0QQitemZ290409993175QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_De faultDomain_0?hash=item439dc8d3d7

[Gary R]

Maple Sapper,

Could you give us details on what type of float you used? Also, Where is the vac line coming in at? Do you have a solenoid shutting that off also? Thanks.

[maple sapper]

Sorry all, I will get you all the details, its been very wet up here and I am the guy with pumps for basements and leaky roof fixer. So, I have been straight out with that and trying to keep my releaser going. I will reply soon with full details. I do need to change and figure out how to keep my lower check valve from allowing air in when releaser is just about to its peak to dump. Keep your eyes open I will put it all right here. Thanks I need some sleep.

[farmall h]

maple sapper, so, looks like your mailine(sap) is coming in on the right "Y" with check valve in place and dumps via gravity on bottom into another line to a tank or directly to sugarhse. The twisted small dia. hose is your vac line and the separate pvc unit on the upper left is a moisture trap. yes? What are you using for a float sensor..I recall you said magnetic switch? Please explain how the vac is stopped when in dump mode. Quick tip...replace the check valve with a pvc flap valve (McMastercarr)...they seal very tight. Get some rest.

[maple sapper]

message me with your email if you want the actual pic. I had to crop it so M trader would accept it.

The electrical items are from Grainger. The parts are as follows
Solenoid valve (normally closed 1/2") 12V part # 2htx6
horizontal liquid level switch 316 stainless part# 4ym32 OR
horizontal liquid level switch part # 4ym37
Relay, time delay, multifunction part # 1eje8

Of course there is the pvc 6" t-wye, bushings to get smaller ports. the wye area is made up of 4" pvc and clean outs for easy opening and cleaning.

I reworked some things today and got my releaser up to 26 hg to day with main line valve closed. So this baby is tight. my pump tested 24 when I bought it.

[maple sapper]

The electrical goes like this:
There is a pair of wires that hook up to a 12v deep cycle battery on the ground. This gives power to a relay and provides power to one side of the level sensor switch. Once the sap fill up the level sensor switch float creates a circuit to trigger the time delay relay. The relay is set to for delay off. I figured out it takes 20 seconds to dump. So I set the relay for 20 seconds. When the relay triggers it opens the solenoid valve and breaks the vacuum. The sap flows out by gravity and takes 20 seconds. The relay turns off closing the solenoid valve and the vac now takes over again closing the lower check valve and opening the upper check. The upper one maintains vac in the system during dumping.

[farmall h]

I know your tired but one more quick question. Does the solenoid valve turn off the vac to the releaser or does it act as an exhaust valve to reduce vacuum to allow dumping to take place? I think the reason your check valve is not sealing properly on start up is your vacuum is still constant during dumping and the inlet check valve is not closed. Therefore it is doing a half dump-half fill action. If you could install another solenoid valve (normally open) to act in unison w/ air release solenoid valve I think you should see greater results. It is ok to have no vac to the line during the dump cycle. When that check valve is closed the recovery is almost immediate. Sleep on it and we'll talk tomorrow. Nite!

[maple sapper]

The solenoid valve breaks the vac and brings to releaser to atmosphereic pressure. The lower check has no issues sealing at all till the head pressure in the releaser is to great for the rubber on the check. The weight of the sap is pushing down on the flapper and the vac is pulling air in all at once. A simple solution would be to lower the sensor switch so the capacity was less and the head pressure would be far less. But, I dont want to make another hole and have to put a plug in the existing hole. Another thing is, its hard as hell to use a bit that uses a center pin or threads as a guide in a exiting hole. Its all over the place and then your hole ends up oblong and thats not good when you need to have really good seal. So going to see what I can do about that check before mods to level sensor. I may get one of those clear checks that Dennis H has. That way I can see if there is ice in it or something caught etc. Thats what I was going to do in the first place but got impatient. The checks I have on there worked great on the first model cause it only had a 4" t-wye. Now with the 6" its got way more volume per dumping.

I could also add a solenoid valve in place of the lower check valve but if the system isnt running it wouldnt allow any sap to gravity feed down to the tank. I would wire it to go on at the same time as the upper solenoid valve. Also raises costs. I didnt skimp but I got two of these puppies now, so need to take a break on $$$

[Dennis H.]

The Clear pvc flapper checkvalves came from Aqua Cave.

Aqua Cave Clear PVC Check valve (http://www.aquacave.com/swing-check-valves-true-unionbr-clear-pvc-socket-connection-479.html)

I am using the 1" size for my Benders. You may be able to find flapper style check valves else where cheaper but they probably will be the white ones. I wanted the clear ones to see what is going one in there, like if it is frozen.

Good luck and keep us posted on your progress

[maple sapper]

Got the clear checks ordered and waiting arrival. Once they arrive I will give this a go. If this dont do it, I have all summer to figure out a plan.

[Haynes Forest Products]

OK Im in the first stages of making a releaser............I dont need one but I found these cool vacuum valves on Ebay and Im building it in my sleep so I need help.

Im going to use a SS beer keg for the releaser tank and Im using the vac valves to maintaine vacuum during the collection cycle and then divert the vacuum during the dump cycle. Im going to use Madison float switches from Grainger to control the valves. They are a magnetic tip switch that will activate at the empty level and full level. They are the kind that can be inserted thru a 1/2 or 3/4 port so I dont need to have a access hole in the keg. NOW what I need is a relay that will work like a 3 way light switch. I need the switches to reverse the relay every time its activated. What will happen is if the bottom one activates the relay to either open or closed then when the top one activates it will reverse the action.

[maple sapper]

use the relay I used. It has the ability to control two devices but at opposite each other. Grainger part # 1eje8 Its a multi purpose relay and can set time and function to suite your needs. Hope that helps.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Maple Sapper I checked the relay out. What do you do with yours? Why do you use a time delay? There are differant ways to make the tanks dump. What I want to do is when the tank is full the top float switch will activate 2 valves (1) will close stopping the vacuum from entering the releaser and the (2) will open letting in outside air breaking the vacuum allowing the tank to dump out thru flapper valves.
I suppose I could use the time delay to keep the valves at the dumping position untill all sap is dumped and then valves return to full vacuum mode. I have a time delay relay but didnt think about it that way.

I was looking for a simple relay that would have two magnets that would click a switch back and forth. top float would click to pole 1 and then when the second float activated it would slide to pole 2 that way as the magnetic floats trip they dont reactivate untill the relay is in position.

[maple sapper]

The relay I used has so many diff functions. You can have two circuits run at different cycles. Example , one on and one off then reverse. You could use two valves wired together but one is normally closed one normally open Then when triggered vac would be closed and other would break vac. The time delay set to tha length of time it takes to dump. If you tie the valves together and use timer then you only need one level sensor switch to trigger relay. I only use one solenoid to break vac and not worry about the second. The little loss in vac isn't even enough to drop my guage on the system cause the check on the front of the releaser holds the vac during dumping. Hope that helps

[Haynes Forest Products]

Very much so. Thanks Maple Sapper. Lets play somemore. I was thinking of a manifold/reserve vacuum tank so if I seperate the two with a check valve when I dump the vacuum in the releaser the check will slam shut allowing it to dump Then when the vent valve shuts the vac levels will rise until the vacuum level in the releaser is higher and then the check valve opens restoring sap flow:) All this should happen in less than 15 seconds or less if I use a good size flapper valve....RIGHT

1)The bigger the manifold tank the longer it will maintain higher vac levels in the maimlines during the dump cycle.

2) having a reserve tank between the pump and releaser with a valve that activates at the same switch as the vent valve will allow for faster recovery in the releaser.

[Haynes Forest Products]

I hope McClardy is following this post. I sent him a bunch of switches and a TIMED DELAY relay along with inline flow switch. If he can make a barrel stove like he did Im sure a releaser is on the drawing board.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Maple Sapper I looked up the relay you have and after a few weeks of trial and error I have a Time delay relay from Grainger $69.00 that works with a simple float switch Grainger $12.00. relay is 110 volt

My set up will be complicated for the sake of having fun with valves switches and pumps BUT the relay works like this. Tank fills and triggers float at the top of the tank. Float triggers relay and supplies 110 volt current to a pump solenoid, or turn off vacuum what ever you want. It will turn on power to any elec device for a setting from 1 second to 100.

What im doing is I have 2 beer kegs both tied together. Both will be under vacuum and sap will enter 1 tank and fill both at the same time. Both kegs will have flapper valves at the bottom for dumping. When the tanks fill under vacuum and trigger the float it will turn off the vacuum to both tanks and vent both tanks breaking the vacuum during the dump cycle. There will be a check valve on the manifold that will close so vacuum levels will be maintained in the woods with the help of a reservoir tank on the woods side of the check valve. If the tanks take 10 seconds to dump/empty then I will set the relay to stay on for 10 seconds and then opening reversing the valves restoring vacuum by closing the vent valve and opening the vacuum valve. With vacuum back up to max the check valve will open and sap will flow from the reservoir into the releaser............SIMPLE:o I got the tanks back from the welder today. 9 ports tig welded I made the holes and supplied the fittings for $100.00 so Im on my way. Have the relay, valves and vacuum pump (Gast piston) float and a welder:)

[farmall h]

Haynes...your on the same page as me. After seeing maplesapper's releaser it got me to thinking the same. Make sure you get solenoid valves that are N/O (normally open) and N/C (normally closed) for each separate function. I like the beer keg idea:) Too bad they didn't make them clear. Also, you may want to open the top some how for cleaning purposes. The pvc unit I made for this season is nasty & scum filled. Really no way to clean it thoroughly. I have all my valves, solenoid valves, magnetic float. Still need a nice vessel and a timer relay.
Oh, instead of building a manifold in front of the two kegs how about alternate filling the two kegs. As one dumps the other fills by way of two solenoid valves on sap inlet and vac line....yeah?