Thinking about an RO for next year

[MillbrookMaple]

Wanted to get everyone's take on this. I have heard that with over 12% I might get niter developing in the flue pan. Sounds like a pain. Here is my thoughts and questions. I have a 2.5 x 8 evaporator. For you guys that have ROs does reversing the flow every day keep the flue pan from needing to be cleaned during the season? I also had a thought about having some custom pans made for my arch. I was planning on some new pans in the next few years anyway so here is what I was thinking. What if I had a 2.5 x 4 flue pan built and 4 feet of crossflow pans built for the arch? Currently I have a 6ft flue pan. It might be crazy but I figured I would throw the idea out there and see what everyone thought.

[Russell Lampron]

How bad is your nitre problem now? If it isn't bad you shouldn't have a problem with concentrated sap. I regularly concentrate into the mid to upper teens and haven't had a problem with nitre in my flue pan. I haven't had one in my front pan either. I have been drawing off on the same side of the evaporator all season and haven't cleaned either pan. I tap mostly red maples too which is supposed to make the problem worse. I have made 119.25 gallons of syrup so far and that's not counting the pint plus that we drink while we are boiling every time we boil.

I wouldn't shorten the flue pan. That is where most of your evaporation takes place. A set of cross flows with a spare for the front would be nice though.

[Beans Maple]

I would definitly not shorten the flue pan. Thats the heart and soul of any rig. As far as an R.O.????I don't have one so I can't give all the pros and cons, BUT, I do have a niter problem. I have made 310 gallons this year and have swapped out my cross flow pans at least 8 times. If I had an R.O. it would only be worse. I did put on a steamaway this year and I am very pleased with that. Won't quite do the work of an RO but it does make a big difference.

[brookledge]

I added an RO this year. I have a 3X12 with an 8 foot flue pan. The sap never changes direction in the flue pan because I have revolution pans. I have not had any nitre problem in the flue pan. However I have noticed that since the sap coming out of the flue pan and into the syrup pan is more concentated it doesn't eat up the nitre like it use to when reversing flow.
So since it is a breeze to reverse flow I have been doing it every 1 to 1.5 hrs and it has been great,no nitre build up
So I wouldn't change a thing on your set up
Keith

[maplwrks]

I have a 2.5x8 rig and concentate to the 20%+ range. I don't have any problem with nitre in the flue pan. I do need to keep on top of the front pans though. I typically need to acid them once or twice a seasom to get rid of the scale. I can tell you this, If you think changing flow will keep the nitre down in the syrup pan, you're wrong. Not that reversing flow doesn't help, but, with concentrate, when you get nitre, the whole pan is coated.

I wouldn't discourage anyone from getting an RO. They are singlehandedly the best time and fuel saving machines there is.

[Russell Lampron]

I agree with Mike, RO is the way to go. An RO is expensive but a larger evaporator and the fuel to run it is expensive too. When I weighed out the cost for my operation the RO was by far the less expensive way to go.

[MillbrookMaple]

Thanks for the feedback! It sounds like I shouldn't have too much to worry about in the flue pan. I will probably keep the setup the same and just add another syrup pan to switch in and out to cut down on the down time while cleaning.

[mrb215]

So what is nitre??? I haven't heard of this

[Russell Lampron]

Check here for a simple explanation. http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?t=8981

[Snow Hill Farm]

So I'll be in the market for my first RO next year as well. Anyone want to throw out any thoughts, advise, recommendation for brand, size, etc.? I have a leader 3x10 w/blower & pre-heater (processes 110 gph) and 900 taps. For starters I need to figure out the space it will be in & the different tanks I'll need. I currently have 4 stainless tanks, 1000, 500, 300 (feeding the rig) & 200. 10 hour boils after being at work all day just won't cut it any longer.... Thanks!

[tuckermtn]

when I got my 30 yr old RO this year, it was oversized (ts a 500 gph memtek) in terms of its ave. GPH output. My basically stock 2.5 x 8 will do 50-55 gph. when set normally, for concentrating up to 7-8%, I can get 2 gpm (or 120 gph) out of it. more than twice what my evap can eat up per minute. I have to say I like the overcapacity.

Since my RO is pretty old and basic, it doesn't have all the automation new ones have. I have to keep and eye on it- recirc pump has been fussy (its the contactor) , doesn't shut off automatically with low sap, pressure creeps up, etc...the overcapacity allows me to RO everything pretty quickly- then boil without distraction. (my RO is in my barn, about 200 ft from my sugarhouse) When I have one of the other co-op guys here to boil while I RO, I can slow the output down to match the evap. best match seems to be just above 1.25 gpm of output- which with late season 1.6 sap translated into 10.7% concentrate. thats on one pass-

so my advice would be to try and oversize your RO output (vs. matching your evaporator gph) -

just my $.02 worth...

[tuckermtn]

you will want to feed the RO with 1000 gal tank, keep the 500 for perm rinse, and possibly use the 300 for feeding the evap...

depending on size of RO- newer ones are much more compact than mine- you can put it in insulated room in sugarhouse- give your self enough room around the RO in the insulated RO room to get at stuff... mine is twice the footprint of the RO and I barely have enough room to get at membranes, etc...

now you have my $.04 worth-

[Amber Gold]

I'm in the same boat as Snow Hill Farm and doing it for the same reasons. Spent too much time boiling and not enough time in the woods. I'm also increasing my tap count for next year so it's a necessity.

[maplwrks]

Snow Hill--When I bought my set up new 7 years ago--I sized everything for the 800 taps I had at that time. I feel the same way as Eric, go big. You would really like a 600 gph machine. The RO runs for about 2 hours on a good run and you're ready to boil. Everyone on this site has heard my sales pitch about what brand to buy, so I'll skip that..... I built an 8x8 room to house my RO. Rooms get small with larger awkward pieces of equipment in them, If you have room, go big. You can always put shelves and hangers on the wall to store tools and other equipment usually kicking around the evaporator.

Josh--Go see Russells' RO, It is all you'll need if you stay the size you're at.

[brookledge]

Snowhill
A 600 gph will be perfect for you. As for brand I would recommend you talk to some of your surrounding sugarers that have ROs and go with a brand that has a good dealer and is close by. I asked around and decided to go with a CDL RO. the machine is very easy to operate but I wanted a dealer close by in case I needed something or had problems. My dealer has been very thourogh in every aspect. He helped me with the set up and the operation and he also came and showed me how to break it down. And I know he will be willing to help me in the spring next yr if I have a problem. Also he is taking the membrane for me to get tested and professionally cleaned.
Anyways I could have struggled with it myself(1st time with an RO) but he was very good in calming my nerves with the operation. So to me dealer support is very important in what brand you go with.
With my 3X12, I get 140 gph max and average 130 with startup and shut down. In the beginning when the sugar content was a little higher I would concentrate faster than I could boil. But as the sugar content dropped I had to start the RO before I began boiling.
It was nice to walk into the sugarhouse and start the RO and evaporator at the same time. While the evaporator was getting up to speed the concentrate would get enough ahead so that I could run them together and when the Ro shut off it was time to stop feeding the evaporator.
One other thing I would highly recommend is using a DE pool filter to filter the sap before the RO. The RO has filters but when you filter it with the DE filter it makes your RO work that much easier and do not have to worry about changing filters after you have started the RO.
Another thing that helps is to have your feed tank to the RO and the permeate tank elevated so that gravity will help you to get the air out and easier on the pumps.
In my case I have a raw sap storage tank, a filtered sap tank, a permate tank and the feed tank to the evaporator. And with my CDL the wash tank is built right in the machine so that is one less to worry about.
Good luck
Keith

[danno]

I can't help allot her as I'm new to RO'ing. But based upon your original post, I will add that I was able to spend a whole lot more time in the woods this year keeping vacuum levels up and tanks clean then ever before. Just never had the time before. And only used about 25% of my wood. I've never had wood left over before.

Granted, sap collection was down. But if I had more sap, I would have simply concentrated higher, not boiled longer. My goal during each RO cycle was to end up with 300 gallons of concentrate. Not worth starting my evap with much less.

[Snow Hill Farm]

All great advise, keep it coming! Another question I came up with regarding tank set up is elevation. I have a limited area behind the sugarhouse where the lines come in. One line in particular is on a 1% slope and can't change and is about 6feet high when coming into the releaser. I'm assuming the sap tank has to gravity feed to the RO. Right now the 1000 gal. tank outlet is right on the ground and the area is really flat. I plan to pour a slab for everything but may have to swap out the 1000 gallon tank for a shallower tank....

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

The sap tank needs to gravity feed the RO but... My feed tank outlet is about 5 inches lower than the RO inlet. I need to wait unil there is enough sap in my sap tank so the head forces the sap into the RO pump. Doesn't really pose a problem as there needs to be more sap than that in the tank to even justify starting the RO.

[Snow Hill Farm]

So is there a valve between the two at a low point to drain the line (or to drain the tank when cleaning?

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Yes, there is a valve to shut off flow to the RO. I simply remove the pipe from the end of the tank to drain it. I actually have 3 sap feed tanks, the permeate tank and the wash tank plumbed into the RO. All are valved. I can feed from any or all of the sap tanks at any time. The sap tanks are used for my sap, purchased sap, and/or recirculated sap. Top levels of all three sap tanks are within an inch of each other so I can balance the sap among them all for maximum storage capacity.

[tuckermtn]

the outlet of my feed tank is about a foot and a half lower than the sap inlet on the RO - not ideal, but its what I had to work with. like Thompsons, it is easy to run when the tank level is higher than the infeed- it will then suck the tank dry- but my supply pump has a small nut on the top of the casting which allows me to manually prime the pump if the sap in the tank isn't high enough...

I have a fernco no-hub-connector fitting on the valve from the sap tank so I just pull that off when I need to rinse or drain the tank or line...

[Snow Hill Farm]

I can make that work because my sap tank will be slightly below... Another couple of things, I have heard that storage time of concentrate is a lot less than regular sap because of the higher sugar content. I'm assuming in really cold conditions this doesn't matter as much? Typically on a good day I'll get 800-1000 gallons of sap which will be 200-250 gallons on concentrate, borderline for firing up.... Another thing, what opinions on flavor do you all have? Is the opinion that RO syrup has less flavor an old wives tale or what?

[maplwrks]

Old Wives Tale!!!

[shane hickey]

snoe hill farms, I dont know how it is out east but here in Michigan, we get docked and degraded for those producers that use RO I have thought about it, But I relized that I would loose to much money because most of mine is whole sale. So instead next year I will be running 2 evaporators 5x16 with a steem away and a 6x20, people here say that they can taste the difference I dont know if that is true or not but I am not taking the chance.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Blind taste test at Proctor research showed no difference on syrup produced from the same sap!

[Haynes Forest Products]

Shane what is the reasoning behind docking producers for ROs. Is it the state or is it between buyers? I would think if color is the FIRST determinaining factor and grade being second they would welcome all the lite they can get to mix with the darker better tasting grades.

[maplwrks]

Shane--Nothing against you---but your buyers out there are full of crap. The only reason anyone could taste the difference between raw sap and RO sap would be the producer doesn't clean his machine like it should be. It's about time you and other producers in Michigan form an association and stop selling to those packers out there. There are plenty of truckers looking to make a haul east to supplythe packers here.
The RO is a energy efficiency machine and your packers should not be penalizing you for conserving fuel and time.

I would challenge those boneheads to come to VT. and try to tell the difference---we would send them home with their tails between their legs!!!!hehehehe!

[Russell Lampron]

Old Wives Tale!!! I concentrate my sap into the upper teens most of the time and my customers like my syrup. They know that I use RO and they still keep coming back year after year to buy syrup.

Concentrated sap has more bacteria in it so it does deteriorate faster. The rule of thumb that I follow is to boil it within 4 hours.

[danno]

Back to one of your earlier questions, though not ideal, you can pump sap from your holding tank to your RO. I used a sump pump from two different holding tanks this year - one was from my releaser holding tank 400' away from the RO. It would take a couple minutes to purge the line of air, but ran fine after that.

That said, goal next year is to gravity feed the RO.

[Bucket Head]

How long would anybody hold concentrate if it were kept in a refrigerated bulk tank? I know bacteria multiplies rapidly over 50 degrees, but what if the sap was kept at 36-38 degrees just like milk? The saying goes "treat sap like milk- too warm and it spoils". What if you kept it at 33-34 degrees? Would those temps. stop the bacteria from working? Or at least slow them to a point where storage for a while would not be an issue?

I have no experience with ROed sap, but I have kept straight sap for days early in the season when temps. are cold. The sap was just as clear after a few days as it was when we collected it. Would'nt ROed sap "react" the same way to refrigerated temperatures?

Has anyone ever refrigerated concentrate? If so, what were the results?

Steve

[Snow Hill Farm]

Getting back to the concentrate storage time, It seems that the thing to do if you won't have enough concentrate to boil is just wait and let the raw sap build up and then run through the RO? I need around 300 gallons to fire which means roughly 1200 gal. of raw. Since I have a 1000 gal. storage tank I should probably hook another one to it for more capacity while I wait. Also, as far as flushing & cleaning the RO, if I run the sap through, then boil and more sap keeps coming can you start up the RO again before flushing & cleaning and do that at the end of the night? Basically, how long can you wait between using the RO to process before cleaning is necessary?

[DrTimPerkins]

Several things:

1. Get an RO where you have local dealer support. An RO is a wonderful thing, but it is a PITA if it breaks and nobody around knows how to fix it or parts are coming from who knows where.

2. Oversize a little bit, but not a huge amount. Keep in mind that the specs for them are often given at 55 deg F, and sap is rarely that warm, especially at the beginning of the season. Often they don't reach their full ratings for a good part of the season due to low sap temperature, so having it a bit larger just for this reason is a good idea.

3. You'll need LOTS of permeate storage for washing/rinsing the RO, especially at the end of the season.

4. Along the same lines, the most important thing to keeping the RO running properly and therefore keeping you happy is to be very vigilant about washing/rinsing. Yes, there are people out there who don't do much and get away with it, but the membrane performance will degrade unless you take care of it. Changing out the sap pre-filters regularly is a very good idea.

5. If there is a chance of your expanding in the next 5-10 yrs, take this into account when you purchase a machine, how big you build your heated area, and all those types of things.

We've had good luck with the last two Springtechs we've had (new one this year), but I think all the manufacturers are making very good machines in a wide range of sizes/configurations.

[Snow Hill Farm]

Thanks for the info! I have a 500 gallon tank that's planned for permeate, hope that's enough. I'm thinking of a 600 gph RO even though I have only 900 taps (1000 total planned). As far as pre-filtering, excuse my obvious ignorance but do the RO's have a pre filter or do I need to add that in? My dilema would be the fact that the outlet from the raw sap tank will run along the floor +/-8' into the heated RO room and be about level (with a drain so it won't freeze). That's a situation I can't change much. Do I install some kind of pool filter like suggested earlier and does this have to be in the heated room?

[OhioMapleMan]

This was my first year with an RO and I used a 500 gallon tank for permeate that a friend let me borrow. He has some over a 1000 taps and it was too small, he went to a 1000 gallon tank. I have only 300 taps and with the small machine with two membranes it takes at least 400 gallons to rinse it after soap wash. Might want to think about a larger permeate tank.

[DrTimPerkins]

Thanks for the info! I have a 500 gallon tank that's planned for permeate, hope that's enough. I'm thinking of a 600 gph RO even though I have only 900 taps (1000 total planned). As far as pre-filtering, excuse my obvious ignorance but do the RO's have a pre filter or do I need to add that in? My dilema would be the fact that the outlet from the raw sap tank will run along the floor +/-8' into the heated RO room and be about level (with a drain so it won't freeze). That's a situation I can't change much. Do I install some kind of pool filter like suggested earlier and does this have to be in the heated room?

Different machines have different prefilter configurations. Most are built in (but not always easy to get to). You will want to know this when you go to set up your room. Gravity feed shouldn't be a problem as long as you have enough sap in the tank to concentrate.

Similarly, different machines have different wash/rinse requirements. You'll want to check out the wash/rinse procedures for the machines you're considering in order to know how much storage you will need (and then add some extra in to that). Be sure to check the season "start-up" and heavy-wash requirements as well as the normal wash/rinse requirements as they can vary. 500 gallons of permeate might not be enough for all occasions depending upon the size of the unit you get.

[802maple]

[QUOTE=DrTimPerkins;109980]Several things:

1. Get an RO where you have local dealer support. An RO is a wonderful thing, but it is a PITA if it breaks and nobody around knows how to fix it or parts are coming from who knows where.

2. Oversize a little bit, but not a huge amount. Keep in mind that the specs for them are often given at 55 deg F, and sap is rarely that warm, especially at the beginning of the season. Often they don't reach their full ratings for a good part of the season due to low sap temperature, so having it a bit larger just for this reason is a good idea.

3. You'll need LOTS of permeate storage for washing/rinsing the RO, especially at the end of the season.

4. Along the same lines, the most important thing to keeping the RO running properly and therefore keeping you happy is to be very vigilant about washing/rinsing. Yes, there are people out there who don't do much and get away with it, but the membrane performance will degrade unless you take care of it. Changing out the sap pre-filters regularly is a very good idea.

5. If there is a chance of your expanding in the next 5-10 yrs, take this into account when you purchase a machine, how big you build your heated area, and all those types of things.

I will return the favor

EXCELLENT ADVICE............................................ ........................

[brookledge]

Snowhill
I recommended you to consider using a DE filter to filter your sap before it goes into the RO. The cartrige filters that most ROs use will plug up fast when you get to the end of the season. The DE filter will allow the RO to run along time and most cases as long as you need to with out having the RO filters plug up or at the very least slow down the output.
And I guess you could keep the filter outside but I have mine inside the RO room so I don't have to worry about any freeze up
Keith

[Bucket Head]

Here's another dumb question from someone who know's nothing about RO's but is considering one. Would the pool filter have to be "backwashed" with permeate water also? How many taps/sap would you have to have to make the pool filter worthwhile over the water filter type filters?

If you used the water filter type filters before the RO, do you reverse flow to clean those out? Or do you not clean those? If they are not cleaned daily, is'nt it a bad idea to leave "old" and probably warm sap in them? That would just add bacteria to the next days sap, correct?

I'm gathering that filtering sap is more crucial, and problematic, then actually running the RO? Everybody say's their easy to run, but it sounds like if I did'nt have a filtering process that was up to the task I would be shooting myself in the foot, so to speak.

Steve

[Seguin Sugarbush]

We installed a 600 gph cdl unit this season and were tickeled pink by it.It took us a bit to learn to work with it.we only concentrated to 7 and most times only 5%, it was the only way to make enough concentrate to feed the evaporator,a 4x15 intense-o-fire with steam pan.We will need to install more tanks for reserve to gather a full days run and start concentrating the following morning.But those are pleasant problems compared to boiling 24-7 for 10 days straight as was the 2009 season.We never had an issue with niter as we change the front syrup pan every 25gals.The scale came off with only the distilled water from the steam pan and if we pushed it beyond 28gals we would use some acid.I also beleive they cleaned easily as we never fired the evaporator as hard.We made 5320 liters with 35 face cord of 24in wood compared to 8060 liters with 110 face cord in 2009 with raw sap and 2008 was 6060 liters with 90 face cord.I have enough firewood in front of me for 4 years.If I would have listened to the majority of equipment dealers,We would have included the ro and downsized the evaporator when we did our upgrades in 2007.No regrets ,we have learned something!

[sugarmaker43]

Please keep the post coming on this thread. I am also actively looking for an RO for next year and trying to gather as much info as possible. I need to cut down the boiling time since I want to add more taps and at this point maxed out with the evaporator. I'm sure there are many of us in a similar situation that have limited working knowledge of ROs so this all very good stuff. Thanks.

[Snow Hill Farm]

I learned today that the CDL unit I'm looking at (600 gph) has a built in pre-filter so that answers an important configuration question in the RO room. Also, if I go with a 600 gph vs. a 300 gph I can almost start the RO and evaporator at the same time because the RO will kick out +/-130 gph of concentrate while my rig boils 110 gph. Much better than waiting 4 hours for a 300 gph to kick out the necessary concentrate to boil. This works well for "hobby sugarmakers" that do this after working our "regular jobs"....

[DrTimPerkins]

I learned today that the CDL unit I'm looking at (600 gph) has a built in pre-filter so that answers an important configuration question in the RO room.

Before you get too far, make sure you know where the valves, pre-filter housing, wash tank, sap feed lines, permeate lines, etc. are all located so you can size/configure your room properly so you'll have room to get around to the sides where you need to do things. At least that is unless you're a contortionist.

That machine is a well-regarded unit. I've heard good things about it from people who use them.

[Snow Hill Farm]

I definitely will and I'm having a local dealer come by soon to take a look at the planned area for the RO and tank room and see if it's sufficient for the RO I want.

[trackerguy]

To me the ideal point would be to have the RO beat the evaporator such that you start the RO and evap at the same time, run out of raw sap and switch to rinse for an hour or so, and when the evap runs out of concentrate you're all done for the evening. That's my eventual goal - I want to be outta there in 3 hours start to finish.

[shane hickey]

Why not trade you evaporator in for a bigger one, always compare apples to oranges. usally you can find a 5x14, or a 5x16 for around 5 to 7 thousand, you might be able to get 2 to 4 thousand for yours. You might save some money. But this only works if you have a big enough building to put it in.
Hill Top Maples

[markcasper]

I bought a 600 CDL and just got done on the 2nd year. What can I say? I love it! I was getting frazzled before I had it. I lost some help and some vacation days and the decision was easy. I wish I had done it years ago. I have a pile of wood sitting around. Wood that would have lasted 2 years will now be around for at least 5 years with the RO.

As far as being in and out in 3 hours, I disagree!! Alot of times it takes an hour to get going and an hour to shut down. There is maintenance with an RO. I really need another fulltime person when boiling. Theres syrup coming off gang busters, syrup always to filter, drums to rinse, sap coming in, sap needs pumping, wood cart is always empty, then need to rinse ro, change filters, measure soap, wash cycle, tanks need rising soon after empty, filter press is plugged again, when all of the above is going on, its hard to tend the evaporator. All in all though RO is the way to go.

[Russell Lampron]

If I remember right I was telling Mark Casper that he needed an RO for about 3 years before he finally bought one.

Sure there are plenty of big evaporators out there for small money but they are hard to move, take up a lot of room and use a lot of fuel.

I have had my RO for 6 seasons now and would never go back to boiling raw sap. It is hard to get a compliment out of my father but even he was impressed when I took off 11 gallons of syrup in 1.75 hours from the time that I lit the fire in my 2x6 until I ran out of what started out as 700 gallons of sap. He had a 4x12 evaporator when I was a child and said that he had never taken off as much syrup in that amount of time with that.

[Snow Hill Farm]

Believe me I think things over long before doing them. I sold sap for 4 years and planned the sugarhouse during that time (cut lumber, dried it, notched the pieces, etc.). I was so close to buying the max flue pan and a steamaway (had my pans for sale for a week then pulled the ad). This would have processed 240 gph vs. the 110 gph I do now, a big improvement I thought. Then I figured for a lot less $ I could get the RO and cut boiling by 75% instead of 50%. Since I cut my own firewood and work full time (and have 2 little boys) this meant a lot (my property can sustain 4 cords a year but clearly not 16). The bigger evaporator idea meant a huge alteration of the post and beam sugarhouse I spent so much time building. Adding an RO room is relatively inexpensive and I can build it and wire it myself. The advice on the trader and from friends convinced me this is the way to go....

[markcasper]

Russ, is right, he did light the fire under me and make me convinced. And you were ever so right!

In my last post, I did not mean to rant. What I was trying to portray is that everything happens so fast. There was 2 times this season I had 4100 to 4500 gallons of sap when I started. This would have taken 30 PLUS hours to boil all that the old way. With the RO I did it in 12 hours. The ro has made things workable. Making 140 gallons of syrup in 12 hours is simply amazing.

My point in the last post was with boiling raw sap you had time to diddle around, read the paper, do the chores you need to do, but it was never finished. With the RO theres no peeing around. Its "cut the crap" and lets make syrup.

I never filtered syrup post-boiling until this year. The packers are all penny-pinching now, and dock the price, so I did it. That was the biggest problem, was dealing with that filter press when you have 5 other things to tend to in order to run the evaporator. So that was not the fault of the RO. The RO just sat in the corner and gobbled up sap.

[802maple]

Markcasper, can assume there was nothing wrong with your RO after the freezing that occurred?

[jdj]

This was my first season with an RO (Springtech Elite 1000). All I can say is I will never boil raw sap again. It blows my mind that I was able to process 7200 gallons of sap in one day with a 3x10 evaporator. My only regret is that I didn't own an RO years ago!!

[trackerguy]

Hearing Mark talk about 5 things going on at once is good, i'm not the only one that gets frazzled. Sort of like the boiler room on a nuclear sub. next year I'm making an auto drawoff w/overtemp shutdown, a sap out alarm, and a syrup pan level indicator. I'm also considering what to add to my _VERY_ manual RO to automate it a bit. I said I was going to recoup capital this year but a 1HP 3 phase motor, electronic controller, low pressure / high pressure switch, xtra nf270, and 260GPH pump are tempting.

Then I can mess with the #$%$ filter press w/o having a china syndrome somewhere else.

Wes