WANTED: Ideas and advice on high vacuum on 100 taps

[Gary R]

I've only been doing maple for a few years. I'm already frustrated with irradic runs on buckets. Advice and explainations as to what systems works best is much appreciated. I'll provide all the specs on my situation. The information would probably help other small producers who want to get the maximum out of their sugarbush. I'm looking for a system that is the most reliable mechanically and provide maximum sap output.

The bush I want to tap is about 150 ft. wide by about 400 ft. long. There is only about 70 taps in that area but I could expand if I wanted too. The first hurdle is the fact that the slope from top to bottom is less than 1% I see two choices. A tank and releaser is probably about 4ft. off the ground. So, In order to get at least 2% on my lines, I will be tapping everything off a ladder. 10-12 ft. up on the upper end. I could put in maybe two 10ft. sap ladders. The one concern I have with the ladders is freezing. Do they freeze up on the bottom of the ladder and you miss a few hours of sap?

The vacuum pump I want to leave on 24/7 with the exception of long term freezes. I just brought home for free a Leybold Trivac D16B. This is a dual stage rotary vane pump. Self contained and will pull to absolute vacuum. It is about 8cfm but that might be free air rating. It is three phase. I think I can convert it. If it is cost prohibited, I will probably buy one of the dry rotary vane pumps. Some guy's here have been talking about them. They look bullet proof and high vacuum.

I will build a stainless tank. I have the stainless. It will be about 200 gal. and be open top. Mount it on a skid. Just bring it back to the house and pressure wash to clean.

The biggest question I have is the releaser. At first I thought of a zero tank. But from what i"ve read, they won't take the high vacuum. So, will a dairy releaser be reliable outside and take high vacuum? If not, what commercial releaser is reliable and not lose the vacuum in the system when it releases. That is a big deal because a small pump would take some time to recover the deep vacuum. I have been reading that the hobby releaser is unreliable. The next option is a vacuum operated or electric. The tank would only be 250 ft. from my barn that has power. The cost savings of an electric releaser would easily cover the cost of running electric to the tank. Which way would work best?

Big help needed on these questions. I appreciate and value any replies. Thanks guy's, maybe someday I'll be making BIG SAP!

[maplehound]

Gary,
first remember that any vaccum is better than no vaccum. So I am not sure why you think that zero tanks won't hold enough but I consistantly keep between 18-20 inches of vaccum on my tank. the only problem with them is that with such a flat woods they are a little tall. A friend of mine has a 1000 gallon zero that is made for vaccum and he dug a whole and installed drainage in the hole to keep his tank in. We have also found that dairy pumps work quit well (as long as the oilers work good on them). As for where to place the pump, from what you say about having electric 250 feet away, my first choice would be to put the pump at the electric and run a 1" pipe to the tank from the pump just be sure to put some kind of moisture trap in that line in case the tank fills up and you pull sap through it. I have done this in the past and it worked out quit well. I must say though if you can afford a releaser and a low profile tank with a lid or some kind of cover then that might be a better way to go but for me it was too expensive.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Gary Great post. I can only go buy what has worked for me. The best year ever for me was last year because I didnt tap this year. I use the dry vane pumps and love them. I used 12ft 3 star sap ladder. I ran the gas pump 18hrs a day and the elec 24/7 I used a mech releaser into a open top tank.

As far a freezing and missing early sap run I dont believe that happens. If you start the pump at 7 in the morning and its frozen it will thaw out sooner with vac. If you wait till 9 and things get slushy in the lines and you start the pump you will get a surge of sap and then it will even out. Either way I believe that you will have the same amount of sap at the end of the day.

Putting in a system for 100-200 taps you should have a very tight system. I would tap lower on the trees run sap ladders and use a mech releaser. Now as far as the vac pump. As far as a pump that will pump 29Hgs and 4 CFMs that pump will work fine. The FREE AIR dilemma is not a factor its not even a dilemma. Lets work this out loud to the class. If the pump you have will achive high vacuum in YOUR system CFMs dont matter!!!..........unless you have some crappity releaser that releases all the vacuum during the dump cycle. My doubble Bernard doesnt do that.

If your 100-200 tap system is going from 25HGs in the woods at 8 AM with slow sap runs to 18HGs and the sap is over running your tanks and this is a bothersome situation you need another hobby. If the vac levels change during the day without sap levels increasing then maybe the sap just isnt running and your sucking CO2.

[markct]

i was in the same position and wanted to avoid being so much at the mercy of mother nature! i got an old dairy zero tank and vac pump, hooked it right to the end of my mainline, no fancy double lines, and some latteral lines have way more than the 5 or 10 taps recommended. about 300 taps altogether on the line. and not high vac, just 15 inches, and what an amazing difference! days i would get 35 gal off my 200 taps on gravity, the same day my 300 on vac would give me 220 to 250 gal sap. dont need to get so hung up on high vac on such a small bush, i think that you would get a bit more sap on higher vac but not likely worth the bigger expense. i plan to improve and redo some of the overloaded laterals next year, but for now its worked great and got me alot of sap, and was fast and pretty cheap to hookup

[Gary R]

Thank you all for your responses and keep them coming. I have to let you know that my situation is different than most sugarmakers. I have free stainless sheeting and high vacuum pumps. The Zero tank and dairy pump I've thought hard about. I think it is the best for most, if you have slope and have to buy a tank. I watched Dave Y climb in his tanks and clean them out. I don't want to squeeze through that hole. A good 400 gal. Zero cost $600+? I can make my tank for less than $50. Bring it right to the house and pressure wash it easily with a removable top. I have the the pumps. If changing the motor is going to cost to much I'd spend $250 for the dry vane. The deeper the vac the more sap flow. So if I have the capabilities I'll use it.

Haines, I understand the thing about CFM. I threw the numbers out there for anyone to see.

The releaser is the key. Will a Bender work good? I would just run a vac line to the releaser at the tank if that is best. I have all the catalogs. Lapierre shows an electric extractor for under $500. Would the electric, dump without losing vac to the system? If I did run electric to the tank I wouldn't need a gas powered pump. I could use the same one I fill my head tank now.

I think I figured out my sap ladder worries. If the vac is running 24/7, any sap at the bottom of the ladder will be sucked up and sent to the tank. Should be no worries about freezing ladders for the most part. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Last thing for this post. We are a couple of DINK's. Even so, if a person made 10 more gal. of syrup a year off of this upgrade, that's about a $500 retail syrup increase per year. It would all be paid for in 3 years.

[Haynes Forest Products]

When things start to freeze and the sap starts to slow to a stop and the vacuum is still on it wont all leave the lines and sap ladders BUT it will sit and gurgle and then freeze. Its not going to freeze solid and break things.

[holstein]

I used vacuum this year for the first time. I bought a gast vacuum pump on ebay for $160 with shipping that was able to pull 27.5 and was pulling 25 at the releaser 1400' away the vac pump was an oil less two piston capable of 4cfm. it was the only reason i made 50 gal syrup off of 140 taps. with the crazy weather we had

[Haynes Forest Products]

Dang I have one of those in the basement. Its the kind that was used to pressurize phone lines to keep moisture out. Its more of a compressor than vac pump I thought:o

[Gary R]

Holstein, those are some impressive numbers. That's what I'm looking for. Can you give us the model number of the pump? Also, what did you use for a releaser? Please give us details.

I'm hoping this will be an informational thread for everyone. I'm sure there are a lot of people who would go to vacuum if they knew more about it. I spend way too much time on this site:rolleyes: But I learn things every day. Please provide details when chiming in. I won't complain if it's something I already know.

Zero tank - They are a stainless steel dairy bulk milk tank. The great thing about them is that you can apply a vacuum to them. This way you don't have the expense of a releaser. From what I've read you do not want to put more than 20" of vacuum on them. Also, you have to remove the vacuum from the tank when you pump the sap out of them. This could be every day.

Haines, class instruction;) If you have any given volume of confined space (tubing system) and you apply vacuum to it you will achieve the ultimate depth of vacuum that the pump will pull. All pumps are not equal. Some types can only pull 15". Others can pull to absolute, almost 30". Studies have shown the deeper the vacuum the more sap produced. CFM is going to determine how fast it gets to that vacuum. Idealy your tubing system should be tight with no leaks. But in the real world that's usually not possible. There could be leaks at fittings or the tree actually outgasing CO2. More CFM is used to recover from those leaks. A small 100 tap system should be easy to keep very tight. I have walked the lines on a 2000 tap bush. It takes a long time to check things and is a lot of walking. Producers will use a bigger than needed CFM pump to overcome those leaks. The same would be for a Zero tank. If you had to drain it and pump it back down to vacuum again with a small dry vane pump everyday you wouldn't have your best results sap wise. Haines thanks for turning us on to those small pumps. I know you were an early proponent of these. If I got it right, class dismissed

[Haynes Forest Products]

GaryR I Dont disagree with anything you said:) I might also say that the way you said it will help others in understanding the relationship between HGs and CFMs. Now I want to make sure that everyone understands that I only advocate the SMALLER pumps for smaller tube systems 100-200 taps. I also advocate the bigger Gast pumps like the one I use for bigger systems. As far as 5000 taps and up its a differant ball game.

I have a used Gast pump that I paid $100.00 for the pump and $250.00 for a new motor and still have less than $500.00 for the complete set up pump, frame, timer, check valve, muffler, moisture trap. I have heard some crazy info on the site when it comes to vacuum.

I run 1150 taps and have a cobbled together gravity system that I took over from a guy that didnt believe in vacuum. I also did everything wrong when it came to vacuum.........I have sucked in the best tanks with a small Duo-Walsh piston pump and then with the 1/4 HP gast so I know I dont need the biggest and baddest vacuum pump out there to get a system going that will work. This is what I love about this site is we can have a great back and forth and in the end we all learn and move forward with what fits your needs:) ;)

[dano2840]

buy a 10 horse liquid ring pump! :lol:
i run a leiman model c on my big bush which has 500 taps it pulls 10" i just put it on vac this year and have seen a big difference using vac

[Haynes Forest Products]

So Danno How much did you pay for that pump to get 10" of vac:lol:

[DanE.]

First this is a great thread.

So for a guy who is in this range 100 - 200 taps and looking to do vacuum in a few years. we have time to scrounge and barter before we need them, what some of the pumps that we should be looking for. I seem to run across a few ac vacuum pumps, most of them are 1/2 hp 25 microns and 5 cfm. would they fit the bill?

Dane...

[vtjeeper]

agree and am in a very similar situation as the original poster. the only thing I am really worried about is the releaser. they are pretty expensive for me. I'd like to build one. electricity would not be a problem. so far I have not seen enough on building an electrical or mechanical to even really understand how they work in detail.

[maple sapper]

I just posted some pics of my pvc 1100 I made last weekend. It would be a start. I need to work out a small detail and Im sure in 5 mins someone will have an anwser for me. Its titled " home made releaser input needed" it runs on 12v deep cycle battery and small solar panel that I use to trickle charge batteries when not sugaring.

[holstein]

sorry it took so long but here are some numbers 4vcf-14-m450x. if you want a better idea go to drill spot .com the pump looks like the one they have listed as 5lca-251-m550ngx. as for the releaser, i purchased a lappeire hobby releaser for six hundred. it worked alright but early in the season it would release but sometimes didn,t want to reset. if you can get electric there that would be the easiest. an old dairy reciever is the same thingm and would work well if electric wasn't a problem.

[Gary R]

I called Lapierre USA this morning. First, the electric releasers need a sap pump. Why they just don't put an electric flapper to dump I do not know. Secondly, I asked about the hobby releaser. I mentioned I've heard there having problems with it. They did acknowledge it. They said the biggest problem was people flooding it by using more than 250 taps. Why do they call it a "Hobby 500" ?

I also emailed Gast. I explained the use of vacuum in maple. I asked for their advice on a pump that is maintenance free and can run 24/7. I asked for about 1/2 to 1 HP. They replied recommending a model 2067 or 2567, oilless, separate drive rotary vane. These generally do not come with a motor. The motor required is 1 1/2 HP. I will reply back asking if and type with motor would work ok.

I have access to all types of solenoid and flapper valves. I'm not sure of the best type of float to use. I might try build a releaser or just buy it.

Holstein, thanks for replying.

[3rdgen.maple]

Gary the way I understand it the difference between an extractor and a releaser is as follows. An extractor is setup with an electrical switch which sends power to the sap pump when it is full. The Extractor is made for setting at ground level and the sap pump pumps the sap into the holding tank. With this setup you can keep the taps at a lower level on the trees. The releaser is mechanical and when it is full it trips a float and dumps out the sap at the bottom. The releaser is made to be set on top of a holding tank so it can dump into it. Which leads to having taps higher in the air if your slope is not ideal. Atleast that is how it was explained to me.

[Haynes Forest Products]

On my releasers I have the mains come in as low as possible to maintain slope and then bring the line up as high as the manifold. Can't bury the tank so thats all I can do. Sap has to go someware so in the manifold it goes:)

[ejmaple]

hay guys what do you think of this pump http://cgi.ebay.com/Rocking-Piston-Compressor-Vacuum-pump_W0QQitemZ330417722117QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBI_Ai r_Compressors?hash=item4cee6e5305 for around 150 taps. i'am pretty clueless about vac, looking for a cheap setup, started building electric releaser.

just this pump any good? http://cgi.ebay.com/De-Laval-Alpha-vacuum-pump-milking-machine-engine-farm_W0QQitemZ180485394781QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_De faultDomain_0?hash=item2a05c4915d

[Haynes Forest Products]

I think the small elec is a little small and doesnt have the recovery CFMs you want. The gas one is cool but what is the dependability factor when it comes with that kind of set up. The engine looks like its water cooled with a tank on it for cylinder water??? Now the pump is set up for 13-15 HGs max??? could get more with oil flood and reclaimer so I wouldnt over invest in the gas unit. I bet the guy is looking to get $650.00 on his reserve.

[farmall h]

ejmaple. The old Delaval is old. 1 cyl. gas motor w/magneto ? Probably would only milk one cow or two goats. The little gast looks new but too small for the job. Unless you can get the specs on it otherwise. For your hundred or so taps you should look at the Gast website posted by Haynes (I think) and look for a 110v 60hz rotary vane pump. These pumps are either oiless or oiled and are very reliable for long durations. In fact they are generally installed on vacuum lifts. My workplace has probably 9 vac lifts with Gast rotary vane pumps creating vacuum and they run 24-7 five days a week. Next year I WILL have one of these babies!!

[3rdgen.maple]

I am very familiar with that gast pump. That is the same pumps Xerox runs in their high volume printers. It is a dual diaphram pump. It is a compressor that only creates 30psi max. The diaphram in them are paper thin. I have on many occasions just put my finger over the vac intake and it will stop the pump and without a pressure relief valve set at nothing higher than 30 you will overheat it and kill it. Works good in xerox but would not be a great choice for pulling sap.

[Gary R]

We bid on a pump last night and didn't get it. It was a Gast 2567-V103. I hope no one reading this thread bought it:rolleyes: I'll have to hold my cards closer. That pump does require a specific frame on a motor. One would probably have close to $500 in it. They run 3 cfm at 25in. Next time.

I decided if I do this I'll use sap ladders. I would need 2 in the woods. So, I might as well add 1 more and bring the sap right to the building:) I'm going to try build an electric releaser and test it. We'll see what happens.

[Brokermike]

I hope this thread keeps going because it is really close to what I want to try to do

[Haynes Forest Products]

Gary I have 2 of that gast pump and love it. I didnt bid against you but have tried for others in the past. That pump is a C face type motor that mounts with 4 bolts right to the pump. 1HP motor from Grainger is about $250.00 can be punted on a wood base if you want. I made up a frame to protect the jars and mount a check valve and 110 volt timer. I ran that rigfor a day with 2 Bernard releasers and 3 12' high sap ladders over 20 acers 1125-1150 taps and was maintaining 22HGs so I didnt care about the CFMs Great pump Keep trying:)

[Gary R]

Haynes, that's pretty impressive. I already had the 56C frame motor lined up. It is a 1 1/2 HP Dayton, full enclosed, fan cooled. Used but looks band new. What I don't understand is that Gast specs a 1 1/2hp motor, but they sell the same pump with a 1hp motor under a different model number. I don't understand why and what you would loose with the smaller motor. If yours can do that on your bush, a 1023 should handle mine. A fellow trader will give me one of those. I am concerned it would be too small because of the ladders.

Brokermike, ask a question and maybe someone will help. I don't know much about this. Learning everyday. I've been planing on building a releaser with solenoid valves I can get for free. It would have a 1 3/4" dump valve on the bottom. But the sap is coming to my building where I have electric. I'll add some links to other posts for ideas on that. I purchased a hi/low 120v float today. I can get a 120V, magnetic drive water pump. I'll build a small electric releaser and test it with water. Check out the links by vtjeepers in this thread.
http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?t=7396

sap ladder information

http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?t=7269

[Haynes Forest Products]

Gary dont turn the packing/side load nut that has two holes in it. It adjusts the bearing side load and if you turn it in it will stop the pump. from turning its touchy.

[Moshers Maples]

I just bought a gast dry vane vacuum pump for $40 shipped. It is a 31 series, 20" vacuum 1.5 cfm. They have 6 more, and it is a buy it now, no bidding. It is small but it should work well with less than 100 taps. Now to get a small zero tank.

[markct]

We bid on a pump last night and didn't get it. It was a Gast 2567-V103. I hope no one reading this thread bought it:rolleyes: I'll have to hold my cards closer. That pump does require a specific frame on a motor. One would probably have close to $500 in it. They run 3 cfm at 25in. Next time.

I decided if I do this I'll use sap ladders. I would need 2 in the woods. So, I might as well add 1 more and bring the sap right to the building:) I'm going to try build an electric releaser and test it. We'll see what happens.

oops! sorry about that gary it is a small world aint it, i believe thats the pump that just arrived friday here. now i gota get a motor and find a mating half of the odd type drive coupling it has on it.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Grainger has them.

[Gary R]

**** it Mark! It's my fault anyways. I shouldn't have talked about it until after I bought it. I would also try an electric motor shop. They may be cheaper. No shipping cost and they may have a used or rebuilt one on the shelf.

[markct]

**** it Mark! It's my fault anyways. I shouldn't have talked about it until after I bought it. I would also try an electric motor shop. They may be cheaper. No shipping cost and they may have a used or rebuilt one on the shelf.

yea i plan to get a price from a couple of the local motor shops, i just had looked online first cause its fast and easy to see what was available, and find out a sorta worst case scenario for what i would spend on a motor so see if it was worthwhile. i had been eyeing the gast pumps for a few months now on ebay and had bid on a few before but lost them.

[Haynes Forest Products]

I dont know how he does it but a friend In Janseville Wisc. comes up with the big gast pumps from a industrial scrap yard. 2nd one he got. Plus a few oil vac pumps. Im going to have to get started in the scrapping now that the snow is gone and picking is good.

[Sap Sucker]

We recently got a 300 gal poly sistrin tank tank that looks like a ball. very heavy plastic. no garentees but i think it'll hold under high vac. Just need a gasket for the cover and it might be a good alternative to a zero tank.

[3rdgen.maple]

When you are done with it it might look like a pancake.

[DrTimPerkins]

We recently got a 300 gal poly sistrin tank tank that looks like a ball. very heavy plastic. no garentees but i think it'll hold under high vac. Just need a gasket for the cover and it might be a good alternative to a zero tank.

Not unless you want to have a somewhat smaller crushed in and flattened poly tank. Won't work.

[Brokermike]

Any other opinions on the Hobby 500 releaser?

[Haynes Forest Products]

Sap Sucker most cistern tanks were ment to be full at all times as water was used water was filling the tank. The reason it is round is because it can withstand the pressure from being baried but full is better. Vacuum.............NO. I saw a square poly tank a guy put a fence post in to keep it from sucking in......then the tank imploded with the post sticking out the side :lol:

[Gary R]

Brokermike,

I called Lapierre, It's called the hobby 500, but they said do not put more than 250 taps on it. They are still working on it. On the good side, when I talked to my local dealer about it, he said if I had a problem, send it back, they will fix it. Like other's, I'm working on a home built releaser. I will have a couple of hundred dollars in it. I hope it works:)

[Brokermike]

I'd be anxious to see some homeade mechanical releasers, keep us posted

[Gary R]

One thing to keep in mind, these homeade releasers do have drawbacks. First, they need electricity. Second, some of the parts are expensive if you have to buy them. For example, the one I am building is modeled after some others have built. The solenoid valves cost about $300 each, new. I'm getting mine off of equipment I've maintain and now scrapping. You need to be resourceful or these releasers are cost prohibited.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Gary is right when it comes to the valves. The only reason I built mine with the type of valves is Ebay. The vac valves are $485.00 each and I got them for $25 and $37 they are like new.

[farmall h]

If your only tapping 100 get yourself the larger of Bender milk releasers...$100 tops. You can gain higher than 18" vac by adjusting the weight on the float. I was running 24" on the one I sold to a fellow "trader". Had it on 800 taps but of course it couldn't keep up due to the slow dumping time. The small jar Bender would handle 100 taps with no problem!:)