Testing permeate for sugar?

[Justin Turco]

So how are you guys checking the permeate for sugar?

Also, I've been doing wash cycles at the end of each day. I have a hydranatics 4X40 PVD 1 membrain. Sani Osmo is the cleaner.

Is there an acid wash that should be performed at some point?

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Justin,
I usually just catch a hydrometer cup of permeate each time I start the RO and test it.
I do an acid wash a couple of times a season. hope to get one done today. Key is time. The instructions say to let it wash for about 1/2 hour and then let the membrane soak in the acid solution for 8 to 24 hours so you need a break in sap production to fit it in. Looks like I may have an 8 hour break today so I will probably go for it.
Doug

[Justin Turco]

Doug what kind of performance decrease do you see that tells you that an acid wash is needed? Or do you just do it as a preventive measure against a performance decrease.

We haven't had a good run here in a while so I may be out of permiate for the season.

[Russell Lampron]

Justin when you clean your membrane and the performance doesn't come back to within 15% of the bench mark that you check when it is new it is time for an acid wash. If that still doesn't bring it back it is time to have it professionally cleaned or a new membrane.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Justin,
I really don't look for a specific benchmark. If I have been running a week or more with little shutdown, I figure it is time. I have been doing a lot more washing this year. Last year (my first with RO) the dealer that sold it to me said rinsing was about all I would need to do. Well he was a lousy dealer in a whole bunch of ways and I have learned a whole lot on my own. I wash with soap at least every 24 hours and rinse well before and after. I am thinking of more permeate storage. I have 650 gallons for a 600 gallon machine but there are times I would like more for the RO and other cleaning.
Doug

[sapman]

Sticking a 1550 poly tank outside was the best thing I've done for the RO. Sure is nice to be able to store all the permeate, and in one place. I think my flow rates are holding up this year better than ever, and I don't use soap when washing every time anymore.

[802maple]

I realize this is a pain to most people, but the best and most accurate way to test for sugar passage is take 20 parts permeate and boil it down to 1 part and retest. Like making syrup if you are passing sugar it will be concentrated at this point and will show up on your hydrometer or calibrated refractrometer. This is how most manufacturers test membranes.

[802maple]

Also acid washes should be needed only if your membrane is passing sugar as the acids main job is to tightnen up the pors in the membrane.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Thanks Jerry,
Like a lot of other things about this RO, I did not know that. The almost total lack of instruction and information that comes with the machine really baffles me. A great deal of frustration and many problems would/could be avoided with a good manual and a couple hours of instruction by a knowledgeable person!

[802maple]

Hey Doug

I know what you are talking about on that one as far as a manual. They just assume everybody that sugars knows all about everything that they make and consider them ignorant sometimes when they don't. I wouldn't know as much about this stuff as I do if it weren't for the fact that i sold it for 20 plus years. Even with my experience, I haven't been involved as much in the last 4 years and stuff just keeps changing, so i haven't been totally up to date in this ever changing industry.

[Justin Turco]

Brad at leader had me concentrate some permiate the other day. I set the ro to produce 4 parts permiate and 1 part concentrate. I then tested the concentrate (the concentrated permiate..that is) I came up with something like .20 of 1 percent on my sap hydrometer. I then divided that number by 5. This is the amount of sugar in the permiate. It amounted to about 1 gallon of syrup lost per 2,000 gallons of sap processed. We agreed that I should keep running my membrane. This is a pretty good technique I think because of course...when I just put the hydrometer in unconcentrated permiate, it looks like zero sugar content.

Justin

[jrgagne99]

That seems pretty good. From 2000 gallons of raw sap, you'll make about 50 gallons of syrup. Anybody in their right mind would sacrifice 1 gallon of syrup (2% of the crop) to reduce boiling time by 75%. Heck, I would probably even sacrifice up to 4-5 gallons of syrup (10% of the crop) for 75% less processing time.

That's a good idea to run the permeate through the RO to concentrate it, instead of boiling it down to get it in range of the sap hydrometer. I'll have to give that a try during my rinse cycles...

[Flat Lander Sugaring]

Hey Doug

I know what you are talking about on that one as far as a manual. They just assume everybody that sugars knows all about everything that they make and consider them ignorant sometimes when they don't. I wouldn't know as much about this stuff as I do if it weren't for the fact that i sold it for 20 plus years. Even with my experience, I haven't been involved as much in the last 4 years and stuff just keeps changing, so i haven't been totally up to date in this ever changing industry.
Manual? wth is that? TR Industries never gave me one of those. Those two dam boobs well I got my fisrt HP pump back from dealer they rebuilt it. hopefully this weekend goes smooth
oh yea 802 1/2 i hear you help mplwrks you teach him a few things? juust a little bit farther south hehe

[maple flats]

Mine came with a hand written manual, several pages. I studied and entered each sentence on my computor, now I have a manual, for what it is. It still leaves some questions. I had to call the manufacturer a couple of times my first year for clarification.
I think I'll run a permeate test in a week or so, I only tested by using hydrometer in permeate with no concentrating. That crude method showed nothing (zero). At the end of a wash cycle, at end of final rinse it would be easy to get a test sample.