Help with Bender glass dairy releaser

[dhbiker1]

I have one of the Bender glass bowl releasers that I have been using for 3 years now. It has never been the most reliable but this year I just can't get it to work good. It will dump, but then struggles to close the check valve afterwards. I have 2 of the 3/4" brass colored flapper check valves from Home Depot - one in the mainline just before the releaser and the other off the bottom of the releaser dumping into the tank. The one dumping into the tank is not vertical because I have an elbow before it. I have tried both 45 deg and 90 deg elbows. The 90 deg that makes the valve horizontal seems to work worse than the 45, which does not make sense to me. Also I can play around with how much weight is on the shaft above the float with no luck there either. This is all at about 12 - 15 in Hg. I am getting frustrated fighting this thing year after year and looking to see if anyone has similar issues or fixes?

How much weight do you put on the float?
What type of check valves and where?
Anything else i'm missing?

[Moonlitemaple]

I use the bender jars in my dairy operation, you might want to try to contact a dairy farm supply or a dairy equipment dealer. The check valve that I have in my dump line has a round ball in it that I get from my local dairy equipment dealer "Surge". I know I dont have any extra ones around, do you have the small jar or the big fat jar. Also make sure that the steel rod on the inside is seating good into the top of the jar,"should be a threaded elbow made of plastic", that shuts the vac. off to allow it to dump. And also off the bottom off the jar I have 1" clear milk hose with a 90 elbow off the jar and about a foot away from that elbow is my ball check valve, there is kind of a sag in my line there maybe that helps???? Not sure what else maybe sap is sticking something. Hope some info was a help a ?'s let me know.

[Moonlitemaple]

Ok I just looked at the photo of your releaser, um lets see. The line you have comming in the top is sap? Correct? Ok you will have to put a tee on the bottom of your jar, with two check valves one in the dump line and one in the feed line. The inlet in the top af the stainless part plug it. I only use that for when I hash my dumping staition at the end of the day. So on one side of the tee off the bottom you will have your mainline comming in and on the otherside you will have your dump line.

[markcasper]

The checkvalve on the dump end might be the problem, one made for it would be the best. The other big thing you might have going on is alot of leaks or air getting drawn in with the sap. A leaky system and you will have a Bender that doesn't work. An easy way to check, pull your sap line off and attach a hose to a pail of water and suck that up, if it works and cycles, then it is probably many leaks going on somewhere in your sytem. How many taps?

The other thing could be a leaky gasket that seals your top cover to the glass, that will cause air to be drawn in and a problem. Take apart and seal with vaseline, when putting back on, then spread vaseline around the exterior of the seal regularly. Do you have a regulator on your pump? If not you should be getting 19" of vacuum plus on your farthest tree.

Also....on 34-36 degree cloudy, damp days, I sometimes have problems with the vacuum inlet freezing up, moisture condenses and then freezes and will cause your symptom. Also, it should be covered to not get rain sucked into the vacuum port on top, one drop in there will be a problem at up to 36 degrees.

[dhbiker1]

Yes, I need to call some dairy supply places to try to find the right type of ball check valve.

I had bought this from someone who used it for sap as well and tried to set it up like he said, which was sap going into the stainless port on the side, vacuum straight through the top, and dumps out the bottom. Today I discovered that was not how it was intended to be set up. Moonlite told me about his setup and I found this picture online:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0c/DMahalko-Step-Saver-Vacuum-Breaker.jpg

This afternoon I plugged the stainless line and put a T down below it with my 2 check valves in the mainline like in the picture. It did the same thing at first and wouldn't start again once it dumped - I moved the key pin up a couple inches on the shaft so the ball wouldn't drop as far and it started working. I did notice a lot of air bubbling up into the jar though. I think it is coming in through the check valve on the tank side because there is only 155 trees and I have walked it numerous times (unless something is hollow maybe). I went back out an hour later and it wasn't working again, just bubbling trying to suck. I guess next step is trying to get a better check valve. My regulator is dairy as well, it's old and is pretty much a lead weight sitting on a point that let's air by - keeps it at 15"

What seal are you talking about on top? The small black rubber piece that is between the 2 sets of holes on the shaft or the actual round cap that sits on top and is pushed down by the plastic threaded elbow?

Sorry for the long post, just trying to get everything.

[farmall h]

dhbiker1, ok, first of all. The best thing to do is to look at Dennis H's posts w/pictures. Do a search here on the Maple Trader by typing in the word (bender). Just rember that he has changed his weights to where tey are supposed to be. One hairpin clip on top of weight and one onthe bottom of weight. Now....where you have the sap going in is for washing only. Cap it off or put a tube over it with a bolt in it. Actually, now that I look at your picture you should take the bracket off your jar (you need to disassemble it anyway) and mount it to a 2 x 6. Lag screw the 2x6 to your nearest tree about a foot above your tank (definately above your mainline). Now, assemble the mechanism: rod goes down through bonnet, be sure conical gasket near the small vac holes is in good shape. (Do not remove it unless it is terribly damaged cause they are hard to find) Put hairpin clip on top slot, slide weight up..put clip under weight..slide float up rod..install next clip. Ok so far? There should be a gasket under the jar where the bracket and glass nipple rest. If there isn't one make a rubber doughnut to protect the glass from breaking. Acts as a cushion. On the top, install the bonnet w/gasket (should be white and laps over glass). Slide the vacuum grommet under the threaded nipple where your vac hose plugs into...tighten with pliers but not toooo tight. Now your jar is assembled. Brass flap check valves do not work! That is a proven fact. Go online to McMastercarr.com and purchase 2 back water check valves. They can both be 1" pvc socket weld. These are flap valves (white in color) and have rubber seats on the flap. They seal nice. You will have to get two 1" socket weld-npt female reducers to attach to your mainline and to the infeed (bottom left). you can thread in 3/4" npt - barbed fitting into your hose. The infeed will consist of a rubber hose off the nipple of your jar. Once again, look at Dennis H's picture (print it) and you will understand. See how he has it going into the bulk tank? You can have it go horizontal with one of the pvc backwater valves or get one of the check valves w/ball and direct the dump directly vertical. Should be up and running! Feel free to check in on your results.:)

[dhbiker1]

Thanks for pointing me in that direction of those threads. Sounds like I am not the first person to set it up with the mainline going into the washing port. I am looking on McMaster now and want to be sure that I get the correct valve. If you follow the link below, than go to page 480 or (Swing Check Valves), then go to bottom of page where it says "PVC Swing Check Valves." Is that the one I want?

http://www.mcmaster.com/#pvc-check-valves/=60q60i

If you look in my Webshots below, I added a picture from this afternoon after I switched the setup around to what it should be. It is at the bottom of the page and says "2010_releaser_2" Does it look good besides just converting the 2 brass check valves to the ones you speak of? Also I need to get a better mount than hanging it from a wire! I already had the pleasure of breaking a glass jar last year!

BTW - Looking for hard to find or older dairy equipment such as similar stuff to our vacuum setups? Try E-Zee Milking Equipment in PA - (717)768-7599

[Dennis H.]

Here is where I got my checkvalves. The nice thing about them is that they are removeable.

AquaCave Clear Checkvalve (http://www.aquacave.com/swing-check-valves-true-unionbr-clear-pvc-socket-connection-479.html)

[lpakiz]

Dennis H
These look like great check valves. Do they look like you could use them in a vertical position and have them dump straight down, or does the flapper (or ball) seal by gravity in the vertical position??

[markcasper]

If you have air coming in, trust me, they will not work worth @%*#. You said you have alot of frothing going on in the jar, the ball bouncing all over the place. Some bubbles now and then are normal as there is tree gas coming in with the sap. If its violent turbulence in the jar, I can gurantee you have some major leaks, like a mainline clamp not tightened, or a few big squirrel chews, or maybe a couple unused 5/16's fitting not capped off. You can't hear any leaks when they are real big ones. Plus if the bender is not working properly, then your not getting enough vacuum to do leak checks.

Was your tubing put together with a tubing tool or torch.?

I use 3 of them, and leaks are the number one cause of them not functioning and you described that in your other post.

The white gasket that seals the stainless top to the glass is what I was talking about.

You can certainly use the washing port top for the sap entrance. It is true they were designed for the T on the bottom, but I find the top to work better and then have one checkvalve on the bottom. If it comes in on the top, you have less vacuum loss to the trees due to the sap not having to be lifted upwards.

You can still get new checkvalves and gaskets,(the original that go with them)

Heres the direct number

Bender Machine Works, Hayward, Wis
(715) 634-2626

They may refer you to a local dealer however

My dealer, Red Cedar Equipment, Menomonie, Wis (715) 235-5144

[dhbiker1]

That is good to know it can also work with the sap going in the wash port. I like it that way because it fits perfect in the round hole of the bulk tank. Mounting it in the woods above and outside the tank is just asking it to get broken. I don't have the convenience of having it right next to the sugarhouse or any cover.

I think I will try to change out the check valves first as I think that may be the worst sorce of leaks. I only have 155 trees on this and I think I would have found a leak if there was one, but will go back again and check the mainline fittings.

[markcasper]

Do you have valves on your mainline to close off parts of it? I find that works the best for leak detection. It can be very frustrating working with the bender. If you can isolate your woods, start with valves in mainlines, and get one area perfect, then the next and so forth. Each isolated section should bring the same vacuum reading at the end of the line on each section, to know you all the leaks out.

[farmall h]

dhbiker1, last item on p.480..yes..horizontal installation only. Get npt and clear so you can see if anything gets caught under the flap such as a chip of sawdust. Last item on p.477 will work as well and is directional..npt as well.

The reason you would get all the frothing is because if you hook your sap flow to the top inlet...that IS the wash set up and it is made to be turbulant. Your going to have the same amount of vacuum on the top and the bottom..the port holes in the rod don't magically get bigger! Like I said..mount your jar at the height of your mainline and feed into the bottom. Trust me, you will not have a problem. Also, your not going to have a solid flow of sap at all times..these units were part of a dumping station and had full flow of milk once the dumping station was filled. There was a delrin ball at the bottom of the dumping station tub that prevented air to enter the system. That is why you have to have a leak free set up as well as the proper flow check valves. Note, if you have your mainline set up on the bottom and at the same level, your sap will flow through when the vac is not on or will thaw with the rest of your mainline.

Just went and saw your new picture...you forgot one VERY important last thing to fix. You should have a total of 3 ss hairpin clips. Place one on top of the weight, one under the weight and the last goes almost to the bottom of the rod. The float ball must NOT sit flush with the bottom of the float. I think the slot for the pin is maybe 4" up the rod. It will work better. As you have it now the fluid is not being allowed up the jar because of the weight on the jar. The weight acts as resistance for when it shuts the vac off. Just a five minute fix!

[dhbiker1]

Farmall,

I am a little confused what you mean about 3 hairpin clips on the rod? Going from bottom up, I have 1 clip a few inches up the rod, then the float, then the weight sitting on top of the float, and finally a 2nd clip up a little higher that the float/weight hits forcing the rod up to atmosphere releasing vacuum. Looking at the pictures from Dennis H this seems to be how he has it as well.

Are you saying to put the weight on top of the upper clip so that it isn't directly sitting on the float? Then cap it off with an even higher clip above the weight so it can't slide up further?

I turned it on yesterday after work and it was running half decent. The brass valves seemed to be working better. I only found one small leak at a mainline connection and there was just a small number of bubbles coming up into the jar which I will guess is the dumping check valve. I ordered 2 pvc swing valves from McMaster-Carr that should arrive this afternoon and I will plumb them in.

[farmall h]

dhbiker1, sorry I didn't get back to you sooner. Maybe mine is different but I can't imagine so. There should be two grooves at the top of the rod. The weight is supposed to stay suspended. Maybe I am wrong. I suggest taking a look at Caseysugarshack's video. Click on one of the links on his posts.:confused:

Although maybe the weight rides on the float to force the fluid out faster in the smaller jars vs. larger ones.

[Dennis H.]

Do as Farmall says put the weights above the clip that is above the float.

SO starting from bottom it would be clip float clip weight and if you have it another clip. I do not have the top clip, neither one of my benders did so I am not sure if they are supposed to be there or not. It seems to work good with out it so I think it is there just to keep the weights in that one location.

The pic that Farmall mentioned is how I thought it was to be set up and after I got a good run of sap I had some pulsing of the float and rod and it just so happened that Farmall seen what I did in the pic and mentioed to me that the weights are to be above the clip and long story short I moved it and I beleive it works better, less pulsing right after dumping.

[farmall h]

Dennis, how are the benders working? What are you running for vac #'s. Got the pvc unit up and running. Talk about trial & error:evil: I have three benders/releasers. 1 like Nates and two small ones. Did you know that the small rod mechanism will not work in the larger unit? Well after welding a 1/4" ss rod to the mechanism I was using the wrong bonnet cover. They are slightly different as to where the vac holes are positioned. Man, what a nightmare. Good news though...this pvc unit tranfers water! Over 5 gallon capacity dump...lordy lordy!! Got up to 400 taps in today...it is running. I am a couple days late. 900 more to go. May have to take Friday off from work. My 69 year old Dad is gonna throw in taps tomorrow.:)

Gotta go...tired.

[caseyssugarshack93]

if you check out my video on the bender, u can see i dont have a regulator on the vac pump= that vac pump pulls 26 so im guessing i had that or atleast 24-25 at the milk releaser and it still dumped fine, mine has a little weight on the top though not sure if they all do? found out yesterday one of my benders bottom wasy BROKE! going to fix it with a rubber coubling and should be good togo!

[Dennis H.]

The two Benders are working great. Once I got the right amount of weight on each, which they both are different, they dump fine. One thing that is funny is my one Bender when it dumps it will dump 3 more times in a row right afetr the 1st dump. Not sre why it does that but works fine so not complaining.

Right now I have the vac running at 22" at the pump. Maybe that is why the weight are different for each Bender. One of them is 20' from the vac and the other is something like 500' from the vac. The one closer takes more weight.

A PVC Bender? what did you modify one or make one using Bender parts?

We need pic's!!!!

[maple sapper]

anybody know where I can get my hands on a bender or two? That looks like the perfect size for me.

[Dennis H.]

Do you have any old dairy farms around you? Stop and ask. The worst they can say is that they want to keep it.
I found mine on ebay. What dairy farms we have around here still milk and the ones that don't milk have gotten rid of there equipment years ago.
Check for any farm auctions in your area.

[maple sapper]

as a city slicker maple producer, I wouldnt even know where to start. Maybe some of the other NH members could lead me in the right direction. Thanks for you tip though. I am serching on the net but it seems the name itself leads to no results. I am trying all kinds of key words and coming up dry.

[maple sapper]

Almost every search I have done has come up with nothing. What is the true name of this device. I have put in Bender washer/releaser, bender milk releaser, bender vacuum releaser. I just have no other ways of looking that I can think of. :mad:

[farmall h]

DENNIS H, I used the mechanism from one of the small releasers and glued up 4" pvc. I wanted to use a larger diameter pvc cylinder but didn't want to fork over lots of $$$ for it. Had to buy a 3 1/2" ss float 'cause the benders are 1/4" too large. Lengthened the rod, slotted for hairpin clip, put an o-ring under the bonnet (original gskt would not stretch over pvc), mounted unit to 2 x 8 and used a truck spring U-bolt to hold up the unit and to compress the vac to the fitting I had to cut the bracket and mount just the top part to the2 x 8 as well. I will have some pics posted once my daughter ( who is seventeen by the way Nate, maybe I told you that already;) takes them. She is more savvy on the 'puter than I am. ps: boiling Saturday...1400+ taps...my body is killing me!

[Dennis H.]

All I can say maple sapper is keep looking. That is what they are called, Bender Milk Receiver/Washer.


Holy Cow this is becoming a dating service also!:D There you go Nate.

[markct]

maple sapper, they are reasonable new, just bought one for 200 bucks, set it up for a test run today and it worked great!