SteamAway

[sweetwoodmaple]

Does anyone have experience with smaller (2 x 4, 2 x 5) SteamAway's?

Do they truly get you the extra boiling rate or is your money better spent elsewhere?

Brian

[GregMVT]

I bought my steamaway, 2x3, last summer. If this winter ever ends I hope to find out if it's worth it. I am also interested in hearing othe owners opinions, problems, tricks to using one.

Greg

[John Burton]

I have been out plowing snow and thinking abuout your question on a steam away.Alot of you awnser is depending on some varriables.First is this 2 x 6 as large as you ever want to get? with the size of the sugar house you have room to grow in machine size. if you were ever considering it that may be a better option.i would rather have one evap size larger than i need than too many taps and not enough hours to boil. on a 2x6 you are talking 3000 (last years catalog) not counting all those gadgets to go along with it, pulleys hoods ad steam stack.now lets say you sold you 2x6 for 2000 plus the three for the new steam away you could buy one heck of a 2.5 x 8 used and set it up with change in you pocket if you can wait for the right deal.that is assuming you can get your wife to go along with you (honest babe ill never get any larger...the last one well ever need...whose got time to tap all those trees...).now if your current setup prohibits your growth how much have you already done to this one ?pre heater hoods , airtight front. those all may give you little tweaks that could help with performance and not cripple the wallet that badly.Ill bet brandon is seeing marked improvement in his boil rates .I may start there first.I have never met some one who had a steam away that wasant astonded as to its performance.I just wouldnt reccomend buying somthing only to upsize later on down the road. that said if you take my advice and $1.60 will get you a cup of coffee

[WF MASON]

I hate break the bad news about the small size steamaway , maybe I should log off and come as a guest .
Well , here goes , don't kill the messenger, a guy a few miles from here bought a 3' steamaway 4-5 years ago. The first year he had it he made dark syrup , but alot of other people did that year to. The secound year he made some medium grade and mostly dark , alot of people made light that year , so he call Leader and asked them about it, and they said ''oh ya , by the way , the smaller steamaways will darken the syrup".
I stopped one night on my way to Montpepllier, at Gov. Thompsons sugarhouse , its on Mt. Cube I think , in New Hampshire , they were boiling when we went by so I turned and went back , they were using a steamaway , like a 5' x 10' , and taking off light syrup by the barrel, I think there is a certain size where the steamaway starts to works great , but I have no idea what that is, but you'll have to let us know Greg how yours works.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I have picked up close to 15 gph going with an airtight front and preheater and it is well worth the investment. Cost about 1/3 of what a steamaway does. It will not increase the gph quite as much as a steamaway, but is much simpler and I am using less wood. This price does not include hood which cost me $ 440 from an Amish craftsman. Another nice thing about the airtight front is I have yet to empty any ashes and from the looks of things, I won't have to empty any until after the season. I usually clean a small amount off of the top of the grates before each boil which only takes a few seconds, but that is it. I am getting nearly complete combustion with my wood and what little bit of ash I have is blown out the top of the stack! :D

The hood, preheater, blower and airtight front is definitely one of the best syrup investments I have made. :D

[sweetwoodmaple]

Thanks everyone. Everyone's points have been going through my head as well.

I'll have to give my wife a $$ break for a couple years anyway. Been using too many excuses lately. :wink: :D :D

[gmcooper]

Sweetwood,
From your profile, "doors red hot most of the time". Last year we added some ceramic insulation on the inside of the arch front. It made a huge difference on the heat loss. no more burned legs standing near the doors.
I used the 1" everywhere around the doors and will try some 1/2" this year on the doors. Stuck on the doors with some black adhesive in a tube that was for high temp. Threw out empty tube and can't remember the name of it. Have to be a little more carefull with the blanket on the doors but not a real pain either.
Good luck
Mark

[GregMVT]

Actually WF that's good news since I prefer darker syrup anyways, and I've never had anyone ask me for fancy :D :D

Mark, thanks for the info on the ceramic blanket for the doors, I had seen it mentioned here before but didn't have a clue on how to attach it to the doors without drilling them!!!

[sweetwoodmaple]

In regards to the ceramic blanket, are you guys wood fired?

It seems like it would be a mess with wood and the ceramic blanket. I am constantly hitting the doors on the wood.

I do agree the insulated front is easier on the legs and arms and add some to efficiency.

Right now, I'm trying to get a home made wood saver attached (see my pics on my profile). We'll see how that works.

Brian

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Brian,

Not to tell you at all what to do but from what most "experts" have told me is that you need to fire the evaporator and push the wood back about 6" from the door. The closer you get it to the door, the more heat you lose out the door and the more likely you are to ruin the door. This is especially true if you have any kind of blower.

[howden86]

I have a 5 x 10 piggyback. I bought it 5 years ago. If I had to do it over again I wouold have bought my r-o then. to me a piggyback is a glorified preheater.

[sweetwoodmaple]

Brandon - yes, I agree. I have the best luck firing with the wood away from the door. Your insulated front has the blanket exposed, correct? You can see how it does after a few seasons, I guess.

As far as the piggyback, you do gain a little over a preheater in that water can escape as it hits the hot tubes. A preheater only heats, but doesn't get rid of any water until it gets into the pan. Some advertisements claim a 15-20% increase in efficiency out of a preheater. Has anyone out there honestly seen this much increase from a preheater alone? (not adding a hood, wood saver, insulated front at the same time)

To be honest, I'm skeptical of preheaters in the same way that that WF Mason mentioned earlier in the post. My concern with a preheater is if you aren't heating the sap up hot enough, it just breeds bacterial until you get the sap into the pan. My theory is to keep the sap cold until the minute it gets heated to boiling temperature. I have my sap inlet running in contact with the stack until it gets to the float valve. If I leave the sap sit in there too long (an uneven firing where nothing goes through the float), the sap that comes out is warm and cloudy.

Though, if you look at Brandon's pictures, he doesn't have any trouble making light syrup! :D :D

Just MHO...

Brian

[powerdub]

Brian, I have picked up about 15% by adding a preheater. The sap comes in at between 200 and 210 degrees so bacteria is no issue. If you are not seeing those temps out of a preheater then there is something wrong. Most everyone I have spoken with have seen at a minimum of 10% gain. For what it is worth on the steamaway issue I think your money is better spent in an RO like howden86 said. The steamaway is only going to get you an increase of 2% sugar and for the money compared to an RO machine that is not very much. That is to say if you have 2% raw sap going into the steamaway then you will get 4% coming out. (for the most part) With an RO machine you can tune it the way you want. I think you will find that a small machine is not that far off from a steamaway price wise.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Brian,

One thing to remember about a preheater is that the sap doesn't have time to stay in there long enough to even consider breeding bacteria. Even if the sap is coming in at only 140 or 150 degrees, at some point, the pipes are hotter than that to get the sap to that temp. My preheater is 3/4" copper and has aproximately 32' of pipe in it which is a little more than recommended. I did this intentionally so I could leave my steam damper open all the time and still get it really hot which is what I am able to do.

Just think, if I am boiling off 50 gallon of hour and I have 3/4" copper pipe, how long do you think the sap is going to stay in it?? Probably no more than 2 minutes. It is like how you cook a frog. You put him in a pot of cool water on the stove. As it starts heating up, he says,"this feels good". As it gets hotter, he says, "this feels really good". And then, "zonk" and he never saw it coming. Kind of the same thing with bacteria, they never seen it coming! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I don't think a preheater helps a ton as I have several feet of stainless pipe from my float box to where the sap actually comes out into the flue pan and it is red hot, so it is heating the sap quite a bit before it flows out, so the sap coming out of the pipe is pretty much boiling. If I was putting cold sap into the pipe, it would be cooling down the pipe and the water at the end of the pipe even if the pipe heated it to 100 or 120 degrees. In this business, every little bit helps. I was getting about 35 gallons per hour out of my evaporator stock last year including startup and shutdown. This year, if I fire it every 5 or 6 minutes and stay with it, I can get around 50 gph including startup and shutdown. I would guess the preheater gives me around 4 or 5 gph and the airtight front gives me at least 10 gph.

As far as bacteria goes, by the end of the season, I will know a lot more. So far, the UV light seems like a really good investment as I normally hold my sap several days before cooking and I am still making light syrup. :D

The best thing about the preheater and airtight front is I am making a LOT MORE syrup with less wood and boiling off about 40% MORE EACH HOUR than I was last year. I work full time and have to drive nearly 30 minutes 1 way to my sugarhouse, so my time is extremely valuable. Just like Scott(powerdub), he was making around 2 gallons of syrup an hour and then he invested in a RO and now he is making 8 gallons an hour. His time is valuable! :D

[sweetwoodmaple]

Good information guys, thanks. It's nice to have a place to get opinions and experience on this.

Every time I try bouncing this type of stuff off the wife, she looks at me like I'm from another planet. :wink: 8O :D

Brandon - Have you done a cost comparison of buying a buying a larger evaporator (say 3 x 8) vs. your setup of a preheater, hood, wood saver, and airtight arch?

I'm still struggling with what to do with my evaporator situation. The smaller evaporators seem fine, but the cost delta to add accessories is about 75% of what it costs for larger evaporators (i.e. a preheater is not 1/2 the price for a 2 x 6 vs. a 3 x 10). I understand why...the labor is similar (not exact, I understand) no matter how large the accessory.

Any experience here anyone?

Brian

[syrupmaker]

Brian...... Most of the items your mentioning (hood,preheater,etc) can be home built and save tons of $$$$$. Do some homework look at some other units and draw a quick scetch of what you want built. Find a friend or friend of a friend to fab items if you do not have accsess to brake,torches for soldering, etc. Most scrap yards will resell stainless or what ever materials you need for a fraction of the cost of new.

Rick

[sweetwoodmaple]

syrupmaker - Agreed. I have access to all those things where I work.

The trick is (especially with the hood) is to get a good design to pattern from.

Still, in the end as others have posted before, make sure you don't buy too small an evaporator!

Brian

[syrupmaker]

Brian.... Take a look at several different manufacturers and combine the features you like into yours. I changed ours twice before final assy.

Rick

[John Burton]

my 2x6 came with a homade preheater that i think is going to work well if i ever get to use it is four runs of 1 inch base board heater 3x3 square turned on an angle. with some drip channels underneath manifolded to a common drain. i bent a peice of sheet metal to lay over the top to retain some more steam in it . i could try and take some pictures if anyone is interested . ill have to lean how to upload them to an album though.

[powerdub]

These are some of the same issues I had to deal with and here is how I figured it for what its worth. I have a 2.5 X 8 evap. It is air tight with blower and preheater. As it sits I can boil between 80 and 100 gallons an hour giving the conditions. I have 1250 taps. On a good run for me I will expect 2400 gallons of sap a day. (Thats a good run for me) If you do the math, 24 hours I don't have to finish it all off. That time frame is under perfect weather and boiling conditions. Lets say the sap was 2%. At 100 gallons per hour that is about 2.5 gallons of syrup an hour. I looked into getting a 4 X 12. To set it up the way I have mine now was just over $15,000 two years ago. I would have increased only to 150 gallons an hour or so. Even if it was 200 gallons an hour I would process 5 gallons of syrup an hour and my time spent would be 12 hours. For $15,000 I just couldn't justify it. Enter the RO. I bought mine used for $2,500 and have put about $1,000 into it. It can run for four hours with no one there. I put 2% in and get 8% or more out, depending on how I run it. Lets take that 2400 gallon run and break that down. The machine will process 250 gallons an hour. Lets round the time to ten hours of run time. Four of those hours are during the afternoon. After four hours I have 250 gallons of 8% sap out of 1000 gallons, I then rinse the machine and start concentrating and then start the fire. At 8% it is only going to take 10 gallons of sap for 1 gallon of syrup. At 100 gallons an hour thruogh the evap. that is 10 gallons of syrup an hour. In the 7 hours it would take you to boil the concentrate down you would have made 70 gallons of syrup.

Please understand that all these are scientific numbers. They are very close to my actual numbers and I apologize for errors in my math. I am just trying to prove why I went with an RO. and I hope it helps you and not confuse you more.

Understand also that you have control of what comes out of the RO machine. If you know you are having visitors a certain day you can run your concentrate at 6%. If you are running behind you run it out at 10 or 12%. Contrary to what you may have heard, it did not alter the taste of my syrup. I have some very particular customers and they would have noticed a change in the taste. I can't sell them someone elses syrup when I run out, they do notice and have called me on it 8O

If you have questions feel free to e-mail or PM me. I would even give you my number. Good luck.

[brookledge]

Scott,
You probably could have picked up a real nice used 4X12 for about half the cost of a new one. It might have been a little more than the 3500 you say you put into your R.O. but once you bought it it would be paid for. I know that the 4X12 will use more fuel than the 2.5X8 but add in the cost of keeping the building that the R.O. is in heated and having to pay for the electricity to run it along with having to buy new membranes in a few more years. Don't get me wrong I think R.O.s are good they just are not for everyone. I just think that the operating cost of an R.O. are higher than the extra fuel that the bigger evaporator will use. Everyone needs to look at there own setup and look at the big picture before deciding which route is best for them. If your current evaporator is in good shape and does not have lead solder in it and don't have room to put in a bigger evaporator then probably R.O. is your best option. But if your evaporator is getting old and on its last leg and you have the room I think getting a bigger evaporator makes more sense.
Keith

[sugaring42long]

The only reason I can think of that a small steamaway tends to make darker syrup would be that theres not enough heat produced off from the flue pan and the sap in the steamaway runs at a relatively cool temperature. This was a problem with the Raithby economizer as well.

I have a 4 x 7 steamaway and it is alot more than a preheater, the steamaway alone evaporates 120 gph all day long and the only power required is a 1 hp blower. The sap in my steamaway runs a consistent 190 degrees at the outlet. Making light is no problem, I make as much or more light now as I did before the steamaway.

I bet you could throttle the amount of air from the blower and find a sweet spot where you could maintain sterilizing temperatures but still get the evaporation benefit. Who knows?

I hope everyone has a great season.

[powerdub]

Kieth, for me it came down to time. Even a used 4 X 12 would not have cut down on the boiling time enough. Electricty is cheap here and I get my wood for free. As far as the heated room goes, I store my membranes in my basement and drain the machine. It is only heated during the season. Not much expense there. You are right though, RO's are not for everyone but the reason for the post was it seemed Brian was struggling with the same questions I was and I was trying to clear up some unknowns for him. Please don't take it like a I'm right your wrong kind of thing, that is not how I intended it.

[brookledge]

Scott
I didn't take it personally likewise I didn't mean to offend you. Any body in the predicament that Brian is in needs to look at the whole picture before you make any decision to make a change. All I was trying to say was that if you bought a R.O. and then your evaporator needed to be replaced a year or two after, You would have been better off buying a larger evaporator to begin with.

[powerdub]

Not a problem Kieth and that is a good point.

[gearpump]

I have an interesting question in relation to small steamaways. Has anybody ever seen an evaporator with two flue pans? By that I mean having a syrup pan, drop flue pan, then a raised flue pan with preheater. I am guessing that the evaporation would be higher then just with the steamaway. Also there would be no operating cost (electricity for bubblers). The cost for a flue pan is also less then the steamaway. The arch would have to be custom made but that does not seem too difficult. Just think a 2X16?!

Marty

[sweetwoodmaple]

I have seen some interesting arrangements.

1. Two evaporators, one has a flue pan the entire length (raised flue, I assume) and the second evap operates downstream of the first and you finish syrup there. I believe you would need a large syrup pan on the second evap in this arrangement.

2. an evaporator that fires from both ends. It's like having two arches that share the same stack. This was at Dengler's in Saegertown, PA.

I think the 2 x 16 would be great for efficiency, but poor on gph per square foot. I would think it would be darn near impossible to keep the entire length of the flue pans boiling.

Brian

[brookledge]

I knew a sugarhouse a half of a mile from me that has gone out of business but used to have two 6X16 side by side one was set up withonly flue pans and the other one had a flue pan and a syrup pan. When he had alot of sap he would run both evaporators. the evaporator that had only flue pans was higher and fed the other one. When he didn't have alot of sap just ran the one with the syrup pan. It was quite impressive to see at the time. That was before R.O.s, nowadays a good R.O. and one evaporator is all you need.
Keith

[WF MASON]

Gear Pump , you ask a good question , yes you can add another flue pan , I've seen it done several times , all were dropflue , the one that comes to mind was in Wolfboro NH , the guy had a 2'x 6' with two three foot pans , he lengthened his arch and added put another flue pan in the back connected to the orignal one, he said it cooked like hell.

[nhmaple48]

Brookledge, that sounds like Pete Hannum, knew him when he had a new 5x14 LEADER in a shed at his fathers place. What a UNIT!!!!!

[brookledge]

Sugaring42long,
On your 4X7 steam-a-way you said it evaporates 120 gph. Have you ever taken a sample coming out and let it cool and then test to see what the sugar content is? Just curious on your size of what the sugar content before and after is and how much the sugar content increases.
Keith

[sugaring42long]

Brookledge, I have checked the sap after the steamaway and it usually has 2 to 3 brix more than what went in. Usually we run 8 to 11 brix concentrate. The whole evaporator with steamaway does 300 gph.

From an energy savings view, nothing is even in the same league as a steamaway but they are quite pricey! Good luck to all this season.

[Russ]

Sugaring42long, please check your private messages. I have some questions regarding how you run your steamaway.

We're still trying to get a definitive answer on how deep to run our piggyback. Any suggestions would help; ultimately it will be determined through performance tracking, but we'd like to start off on the right foot.

Got another 3-4 inches of snow yesterday and now they are talking about the potential for 6-12 more by Saturday. Just got the pipelines done on Tuesday; this weekend are the bags and buckets. Haven't collected anything yet; it may not be until Easter weekend or later that we start boiling.

Ultimately the snow may help us if we get a sudden warm up. If we get the additional snow they're warning us about, it could be over 3' deep in parts of the woods.