Renting Trees

[Dave Y]

I see mentioned in a number of posts that some of you are renting trees. I plan to expand in the next ten years and own only a few trees. How do most of you approach landowners,and what types of ageements are established. If you do not want to respond publicly,send me a PM as I would like to aquire more trees.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I don't own a single tree. I always give syrup for using trees. I give 1 to 1.5 gallons per landowner depending on how many trees they have. My grandmother has 140 taps and I give her 1.5 gallons. A neighbor has 92 taps and he will get a gallon. Another family member has 63 taps and I will give them 1.5 gallon since I use there property for access to get to the 92 taps on a neighbor. Another group of distant family members have 125 taps on them and I will divide 2 to 2.5 gallons among them.

I think around $ .35 per tap is the going rate if you are going to pay. Might be more than that, but that seems like a good rate. :D

[sweetwoodmaple]

I was going to use .05 per gallon of sap for my new taps. (assuming good sugar content)

That's a little higher than Brandon mentioned, but it also insulates you a little for bad years vs. paying per tap.

Brian

[mapleman3]

the Maple digest always posts a cost for sap guide for those buying sap... it all depends on sugar content what you buy it for, and as far as leasing, usualy .35 per tap is the norm.

[brookledge]

Most property owners probably would want to be paid on a per tap basis. It is easy to count and go with that method. Going buy the gallon the owner has to rely on what you tell them. Not that they can't trust any one it is just easier for them to know they will get .35 or what ever you agree upon per tap. I can remember when 10 cents was good money for the land owner.
Keith

[Al]

A friend of mine was offered a dollar a tap for 5000 taps up front. Can you guess what he did? He held out his hand and got $5000 up front.
Now thats a deal! Around here it mostly seems to be 35 -50 cents a tap on average but that was last year. Vermont lost 6% of it's dairy farms this year and it seems alot of them are going into sugaring for another income now there's no milk check income coming in. Boy from one frying pan into the other. Just like in dairy farming it seems the smaller you are the harder it is to get along and the big sugaring ops just keep getting more massive around here in Fairfield.
Take care.

[Dave Y]

Thanks guys! This is one of the things I like about this forum. Ask a question and you get reasonable answers. Last year I pasted out syrup to people who let me tap there trees. Know one had a large number. but everyone got a qt. However the way Brandon does it makes good sense.
Although .35 a tap is very resonable if you are tapping a large number of trees. This certainly gives me a place to start. Thanks again

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

35 cents per tap is cheaper than the way I do it in the long run considering what I would get for the syrup I sold instead, but I enjoy giving people syrup who are good enough to let me use there trees. It is a win, win situation! :D

[emericksmaple]

Just an extra tidbit. We rent all 5000 of our taps. We pay $.25 per tap plus a gallon or 2 of syrup depending on the landonwer. We have had some trouble in the past, but when all eles fails you pull everyting out and go somewher eles.
Another thing to look at is how long you plan on tapping the woods. If you are going to invest a lot of money and put up tubing you may want to get like a 10 year contract to make it worth your while, but if you are tapping buckets; year by year is fine.
But always remember that you are drilling holes in someone eles trees, and they want them there for the long haul.

[Breezy Lane Sugarworks]

Yeah, but in the long run it might be possible that there could be more money in tapping the trees than selling them for logs.

[Dave Y]

This is all very sound advise. The rate for tapping is very reasanable and I realize we are guests on other peoples land. I live where surgaring is not commonly done I now of one or maybe two others that tap in a 25 mi radius of my location. So the practice of renting trees is something that is not heard of by most land owners. However all the people I have borrowed trees from have been very receptive and they do enjoy the syrup. so far it hasn't been a problem. There are large timber holdings in the area and I know they want to maximize board feet and nothing else.So tapping these areas are out of the question. Right now I am tapping trees along the streets in the village where I live. when people see the buckets hanging on the trees they get real curious.

[maple2]

i usually pay 1% of the retail price of syrup. this way the landowner gets a little raise as the price of syrup increases. another bush, i pay .08 a gallon. comes out about the same

[maplehound]

I went today and paid my rent on the woods. Gave the farmer 3 - 1/2 gallons of syrup and $150 for the rent. I put out 600 taps most of them on his side of the woods, few on another persons side and jsut pay syrup for that. My problem is when I asked the farmer if everything is O.K. with what we are doing, he told me that his one son is concerned with use cutting out his deer cover. His sons hunt in the woods every year but only take 1 or 2 deer from it each year. How do I balance a good managment plan on the woods and still allow cover for the deer? The woods has several real dense areas that are full of grape vines that we have been working at cutting out. We have also cleared areas for the mainlines to pass through dense briers and multi flower rose. I thought I was doing a good thing for the woods and the farmer. :( What now?
I don't think they are ready to ask me to leave yet but I sure don't want it to come to that.
Ron

[Dave Y]

When managing a wood lot or timbered acreage. you should manage for the long term. You do not want to manage for one use or speices only. try to set a balance between what you want and what the land owner would like to see. Multi flora rose is an invasive species and should be removed as completely as possible. Explain that to the land owner. it is not deer cover. It will completey take over an area. it needs to be gone. your management plan should include native species only and allow for regeneration of many different types of plants and trees, and only remove vegitation needed to allow for the running of your tubing and mainlines. Also walk over the land with the owner and discuss your plans before implementing them

[Dave Y]

Also do not remove grapvines as they are important cover and food for many speices of animals. and are slow growing you need to work around the grapes.

[brookledge]

Dave
Would you leave grape vine in a maple tree? Most of the time when I see a grape vine that has grown for along time it has killed the tree. I usually will cut them when I see them.
Keith

[maplehound]

Dave,
I do feel al grape vines are an invasion to the woods. They are not good deer cover and do more damage to the trees than they can ever do good for any wildlife in the woods. Our State forester has told this to me and others on many ocasions and so has other forest managment experts.
The owner of the wood lot is a farmer and personally has no desire to enter the wood lot and has not in years. Only his sons have and they have but one reason to go into the woods and that is to hunt the deer. Other than that they have no desire to have anything to do with it.
Ron

[maple flats]

My forester drew up my stewardship plan including removal of grapevine because it is an invasive. If the farmer wants some cover, leave some areas that have less maple potential to run wild with it. You will find that some pruning of the vines will encourage growth for the cover they want, just don't cut the vine at the ground in these areas.

[Dave Y]

I would not cut grapes for any tree as they provide food for grouse, turkeys, coon, song birds, and other wildlife. I feel it is important to use the land properly, maximizing our benifit is not always the best use. I just think that we need to consider wildlife when we manage the the woods in our care. I grew up in an area that had tons of grapes and I don't ever recall them killing any tree. Ones definiton of invasive may be different than another. I may be wrong but I thought wild grapes were native to north america. never the less I feel there are benifical.

[forester1]

There are no grape vines here. I do recall when living in other areas where the grape vines were so big that they overgrew the trees and pulled them down with their weight. Proper forestry is all about balance and the health of the forest while providing the goods we need. Monocultures are not the best thing to do, but if you only do a few acres of pure sugar maple in among a mixed forest it is not quite so bad. I personally want a mixed forest in my sugarbush even though I know leaving beech and hemlock will cause problems for my tubing due to leaving squirrel habitat. Deer populations are unnaturally high over much of their range and can affect forest composition too.

[maple flats]

Here grapes might be native but they do grow out of control. They will pull down a med size tree. They mostly get out of control along edges where they use the extra sunlight, when you get into the deeper woods they seem to be controlled by the lower % of sunlight available. Wildlife do eat them but in my area they will take over huge areas. They start along an edge choking everything, pulling down trees after killing them by blocking their sun. I had some grapevine masses that occupied areas up to 40-50' x over 200'. Had killed about half of the trees they were climbing by just robbing them of sun. These are a real problem in my area, if your's is not, don't worry. My experience with cutting them off at ground level and leave vine hang, some even re-root from tenticles they normally wrap around things to climb. I now cut a short section out so it can't root again. I could never get rid of all because I don't have enough time to devote to it and birds keep replanting them all over. on another front in my blueberry fields I have spent hours on end removing grapevine and it is a very time consuming task. I have some blueberry rows that it takes 15-20 hours cutting and chipping grapevines to complete a 300' long row of blueberry bushes. fortunately all 4.5 acres are not full of grapevine or i would just brushhog them up and get out of blueberries. Last summer my grandson and I put over 40 hrs a week in for eight weeks cleaning up grapevines and pruning berry bushes. After the vines were removed it takes only about 2-3 minutes to prune each bush as i use a pneumatic pruner and chip everything with a tractor mounted chipper. In my woods I will continue the battle against grapevines as long as i am able. If anyone has no grapevine you can come get all you want for free, your choice, woods grown or blueberry field grown. I will even help you haul them to your tractor trailer or 18 wheel dump truck.

[maplehound]

In the woods I am working the grape vines have droped several trees and I have 2 difrent areas that are at least 50' square that you can't even get to the center of because of the vines. This has all occured in the last 10 years since the woods was heavily timbered. Now the gape vines and the Maple trees dominate the woods ( at least most of it) I would jsut like to get rid of the vines so the Maples can grow fatser. I have worked on one area that was very heavy with the vines. Started at it 3 years ago and today you don't dare grab one and pull or half a tree full will come down on you. But the trees in that area hav e thrived since I cut the vines.
Ron