Hard Turning Over Alamo

[caseyssugarshack93]

What would cause a surge alamo to turn over hard? it has new bearings, it seems if i loosen the bolts it turns over a little better buts not much seems like somthing binding or something.


thanks

NATE

[farmall h]

Is it a Hemi? :lol:

I don't know Nate. Never had one apart. Do you have to torgue the bolts a specific foot #'s?

[caseyssugarshack93]

im thinking maybe the new bearings got to get broke in or somthing,

[3rdgen.maple]

Nate I have rebuilt plenty of pumps for work and I can tell you that is typical after replacing bearings. There are a few things that can cause this. Most I have seen the journals are pinned and it gives you a false sense that all you have to do is slap it back together and you are good. What you need to do is loosen both end journals. Start by lightly tightening the bolts on each end. You need to tighten them in a cross pattern. As you start to snug them up turn the shaft at the same time to feel for binding. If you feel it bind you tightened one bolt too much to fast. Loosen and start over. It can be tedious. Also if you find that no matter what you do it binds there is enough space in the bolt hole on the journals to give it a slit tap with a hammer to turn them. Each bolt needs to be tightened equally and a good torch wrench will help.

[caseyssugarshack93]

I also put some rtv on the end plates just ot make sure they woudlnt leake cause there was no gasket? maybe theres not suppto be?> but would this have a effect on it.= I have the pump all together and now i may have to take it all apart? or just loosen the bolts

[3rdgen.maple]

Nope there is not suppose to be any gasket on them. I made the same mistake the first time I rebuilt one years ago and had to take it to a pump remanufactering place and I remember them telling me the tolerances are so small that the rtv was not helping. I remember questioning why there was no gasket and the explanation was since they just run on air it would dry the gaskets out and they run with such a limited amount of cooling that the constant expanding and contracting of the metal would raise heck with the gaskets also. So long story short. I think you have no choice but to tear the journals off and get the rtv off and do as I posted previous. Sorry Nate wish I could offer better news.
I wanted to add that when you look at the shaft going into the hole in the journal you can see if the journal is off center. How his happens with them pinned I have no idea but it does and will. I think maybe when they are pulled apart the pins get nocked out of wack. When you first start to tighten the bolts look at that and if you center the journal from the start it might save you a little time. I have had to in some cases actually pull the allignment pins out and put new ones in or just left them out.

[caseyssugarshack93]

alright well looks like ill be doing that tomorow lol, thanks, for the info, i have the pins lined up,it wont take to long to take the gasket stuff out, i dont think anyway, all i gotta do is unhook the oilers and take the bolts out of the plates and it pops right off, i might clean where the vanes go anyway,

[jdj]

Casey,
Don't want to rob this thread, but did you get your 15 gal soap drum gas tank made up? If so, does it work OK? I got mine hooked up to the pump and it seems to work fine. Best of luck this year!

[3rdgen.maple]

Nate what type of vanes are in this pump? If they are carbon by chance be careful what you use to clean them with. You can ruin them in a hurry. It is always good to keep them clean so they drop properly. If you buy the right stuff to clean them a spray can of it cost close to 100 bucks. And Im sure you know but just in case make sure you put vanes back in right. If they are not a carbon vane it is a good precaution to squirt a little oil in the suction intake when you start the pump up the first time to get some lubricant in there. Good luck.

[caseyssugarshack93]

Thanks, today after im done in the woods ill be taking the end plates off, I dont think ill have to take the oilers out because i left anough line for some movement but if i do i just have to unhook the lines, Im going to take the plate of where the pully is first because if i pull the other one, the whole rotor and vanes come out on that one, so ill pull the the other one first scrape all that rtv off and go do the other side the TRY and do like you said and see if that works,

[Brian]

I have had the same problem,Double check the bearings if every thing looks ok try this, put the end cover back on,if it still turns hard loosen the bolts alittle 1/4 to 1/2 a turn, then if you can turn it over with your hand. turn the pump on and tighten one bolt then cross and tighten the bolts in a cris cross pattern. This will let the bearings center, and let the end plate center it's self. Then turn it off and it should turn smooth with your hand. (BE CAREFUL)
I hope this helps.

[Brian]

sorry posted twice

[caseyssugarshack93]

Thanks guys ,but i had no luck i cant even tightne the bolt a 1/4 turn without it starting the bind, i worked on it for a hour and a half and no luck and i got so aggrivated i gave up for right now, i need this pumps for this season so hopfuly i can figure itout,i took the plate off on the side where the pully is and it turned over real easy so i figured i woudlnt have to take the other side off right? i tryied turning the pump over wile trying to tighen to feel the drag and i could but i cound never get the BOLTS TIGHT! HELP!


THANKS

NATE

[caseyssugarshack93]

im going to have to hook up my gas egnine to it and see if i can do it like u said brain, i deffinly wanna be carful about that with ur HANDS lol ill try that once i get some oil for my gas engine,

[syrupkid]

my dad is a surge dealer so i asked him and he said a vane might be hanging up if there is a clicking sound when you turn it over thats what it is if thats the problem what you do is take the end plate off it should come off pretty easy with a little light tapping from a hammer after you do that you should look into the pump and see the vanes and then look anound for a little piece of something thats hanging it up if you dont see anything take the whole big piece out of there and look for the hang up if you see nothing then tell me and ill see if he has any other ideas also before you do that try dumping a little diesel fuell in the pump and turning it by hand for a few turns and then dump a little oil in and run it the diesel works good to clean out vaccum pumps

[shane hickey]

Sounds like to me I would just get a new one, nothing worse then haveing something that your always trying to fix specialy at the last minute.
with 1800 taps you should always have an extra vacume system , water pumps any thing that could put you down for a while sure it cost money, But how much money and time have you lost if fixing it. I have 7400 taps I have 2 of everthing that has a motor, I learned my lesson the hard way and lost tons of sap that got dumped on the ground. Never again.

[davey]

another thing I have seen happen is that the vanes get installed backwards. Be sure that the taper of the vane is the leading edge based upon the direction of rotation. if they are backwards, it will turn ok for part of a rotation and then hit a point where it just wont move. Just in case, I'd check that before I put horsepower to it.

[3rdgen.maple]

Nate you should of losend both journals. It very well could be the end you did not loosen back up binding once the front journal is on. In other words you are binding the shaft. so loosen both and do as I said and you will be fine. And please do not hook this up to a motor and turn it on and tighten. How many times have you seena wrench slip let alone with a motor and cooling fan in the way. Beside it is the same as I explained except alot safer.

[KenWP]

Do you have it back toghether the same as it came apart. The bearings are not exactually in the middle but up from the bottom a bit for the vanes to drop down. it's possible you don't have both ends lined up the same. One bolt hole would make a huge difference. Also do you have the bearings bottomed out in the jounals. One bearing could be hitting the rotor and binding it when you tighten it up.
That and only somebody who has no value for his life would run the thing and try and tighten it at the same time.

[3rdgen.maple]

You make a good point Ken. I assume he got the same bearings to put back in but if the tolerances are off he would need to shim the journals to stop them from bottoming out. But it is exacally as you describe. The bearings are offset and that is where the binding comes from if the journals are not put back on perfect. Also it will cause excessive heat and fatigue on the pump and motor if he runs it with any binding.

[Brian]

It don't take much to hang thoes pumps up.to bad you didn't live closer i would put it on the bench for you and figure it out.

[caseyssugarshack93]

the bearings are pretty much idiot proof theres retaining rings that hold them in, maybe its the the other plate, but i dont see how it could be if that end turns over easy without the plate, And as for other pumps i do have a other pump for back up, just dont have as many oilers so i figured id use this alamo for better lube, this one has one on each bearing and one in the intake

[caseyssugarshack93]

brian i wish u or i did live closer, this pumps starting to tick me off ill try it one more time tomrow and if it dont work im going with the other alamo its a almo 30 and i just tapped the bearing cap for a oiler on that side and i was going to do the other side but i dont dare to take that end plate off and been in the same boat i am now, so hooks like id have on oiler on one bearing and oil in the intake of the 30,

[Brian]

before you give up,loosen it up so it turns and hook up your gas moter to it.and while it is running, tighen it up and see what happens.it sounds like you did it right.
how did it turn before you took it apart? bad bearings,vains, I had a used vacuum pump with a bent drum once. good luck.

[caseyssugarshack93]

i just replaced the bearings, And i thnk the pump has been rebuilt before and was put together wrong because it turned over kinda hard then, i was reading a old post on here , and i think parker was asking about a shim kinda deal and a person said to use some gasket seal to kinda be like shim, put some on let it harden then put the plate on, sounds like ti would if i can figure it out, tomrow ill losen up the bolts on the other side and try tighening both, but i see how it would do anything because the shaft is like pressed into the plate/ bearing on that end we will see, ill keep you guys updated, If i cant get it to work ill try the shim deal

[KenWP]

before you give up,loosen it up so it turns and hook up your gas moter to it.and while it is running, tighen it up and see what happens.it sounds like you did it right.
how did it turn before you took it apart? bad bearings,vains, I had a used vacuum pump with a bent drum once. good luck.

A bent drum or a warped drum or was it worn out of round inside. I have seen them so worn on the inside that you couldn't get vacuum with new vanes until they wore into all the grooves. It is supposed to be possible to have them reground but I never bothered. Just bought new drums.

[Wanabe1972]

At work I rebuild alot of pumps and gearboxes and when we do we have a dye that we spray on tight tolerance surfaces then we can put together and rotate by hand. If anything is out of tolerance you will see it in the dye because it scrapes off where it makes contact. You could use a marker to do the same thing. color both side plates completely then assemble and turn over a few times by hand then disassemble. If you have scrapes you can go from there and trouble shoot WHY. I not sure how this surge pump works but when rebuilding my deleval there were several shims between rotor and bearing to give the rotor clearance with the side plates. Are there shims in your pump and did you put them back where they came from? Also did you get the correct bearings because there are several different width bearings that have the same ID and OD. This could cause extreme side load to the bearings and cause what you are describing.

[caseyssugarshack93]

there are no shims that i know of, I think if i cant figure it out im going to make up a smim out of some rtv and that will work becau if the bolts are loose its spins really easy and if there tight its hard as hell to spin, so if i use some rtv it will give it anought gap if worse comes to worse but ill try loosing both ends first and try it that way,

[maple connection]

there are no shims that i know of, I think if i cant figure it out im going to make up a smim out of some rtv and that will work becau if the bolts are loose its spins really easy and if there tight its hard as hell to spin, so if i use some rtv it will give it anought gap if worse comes to worse but ill try loosing both ends first and try it that way,

I had the same problem with a Alamo 50. What the problem with mine was the shaft moved just alittle bit inside the housing that the fiber fins slide back and forth in. That shaft will slide inside that housing if you know which way you have to slide it. It took a pretty big hit with a block of wood and a hammer to make it move back. I hope that made sense.

[caseyssugarshack93]

Thanks, alot actually i have a feeling that is the problem when i took the pulley off when i rebuilt it if so ill know which way to hit it, is there anyway to tell if the shaft moved at all? would it be the shaft that moved or the drum? thanks

[lpakiz]

When we replaced ball bearings in electric motors, we always gave each end-bell a whack with a hammer after reassembling, to help the bearing "adjust" to the side stresses induced when pressing things together

[Haynes Forest Products]

The silicone sealant cant be the problem unless you put a &^&%&^%load on the surface and it hardened on the inside. When you put it on and crank down on two metal surfaces they will squeeze out all the sealent until the two metal surfaces touch each other. I would give it the brass hammer wack on the end of the shaft back and forth and see if it helps with the clearance. One last think the new bearings were they from the manf. or are they a close replacement...I used the word CLOSE replacement:o

[caseyssugarshack93]

i got the bearings from parts dept,= Farm and milking supplies online i took all the rtv off one side that was handing up, today i plan to try and few differnt things, to see if i can get it to not hand up, i think its the shaft got moved or the drum did when i took the pully off to rebuild it but ill try and few things to see if it will work if not going to put rtv al around the plate and let it harded on the plate and put it on the pump to act like a shim if worse comes to worse,

[Haynes Forest Products]

Cassey. A few more things if you get bearings from Napa or other suppliers and they are for a dairy pump most bearings come with plastic seal covers. REMOVE THEM they can cause aa failure down the road. Put it back together and put a cut up business card in 3 areas to keep the side plates out a touch and see if that helps if it does then try sheet paper and work yourself down to minimum. I made a gasket out of copy paper and it worked fine. If you want silicone in there put small amount on the plate oil up the pump side and shim it out with the thick paper and tighten down and let cure and the remove the shim and tighten. I DONT RECOMMEND that you use anything but a gasket to shim them. Side plates need to be tight to keep from wiggling and cause bearing chatter and ware. They like to be tight.................USE THE GASKETS most old pumps had a thin paper gasket in them:)

[caseyssugarshack93]

okay well i broke this thing on the pump not sure how it broke but anyways, Its this coupler thing betwwn the drum and the bearing on the oppisite side of the pully, so looks like im pretty much screwed now? i dont think i can run it without right? or can i? ill post some pictures of it

[caseyssugarshack93]

heres the picture HOPFULLY I CAN FIND THIS PART FROM SOMEONE THAT HAD A PARTS ALAMO!:mad:

[KenWP]

Did the old bearings come apart in one peice or were they thrashed. it almost looks like the old race off of a bearing.

[caseyssugarshack93]

they came out all intack, that peice that is broke, like holts the bearing in the hole in the end plate, i think anyways, because bolts go through the plate to that peice, does anyone know if i could still run it without that peice or not?

[Haynes Forest Products]

OK lets think here is that a bearing keeper? Does the plate go on first then the bearing and then the piece you are showing. Put up a picture of the area that that came off of. If the plate goes on then the bearing and then that then you should beable to make one out of a washer, Does it hold the seal???

[Haynes Forest Products]

Now I see onother post Yes as long as the bearing is held in place your good to go NOW is there a seal in the cut out area on the 3 hole coller. Could you get a washer from a implement supply The use big ones and drill the holes to match and hold that piece in place???

[caseyssugarshack93]

i am not sure haynes, its pretty tight in that pump so i worry about somting rubbing maybe? i dont really know, ill have to come up with something to make it work, do you think i i dont even replace that peice somting would happen? i dont really see how it could since the lates hold the drum in? what do you guys think


THANKS

[Haynes Forest Products]

You didnt answer the questions Do the bearings go in after the end plates???? if so is there a seal??? does this hold the seal in??? does it spin easer??????

[caseyssugarshack93]

You didnt answer the questions Do the bearings go in after the end plates???? if so is there a seal??? does this hold the seal in??? does it spin easer??????


one plate has a bearing pressed onto the shaft so that slides into the plate then u put hte drum and plate on the pump housing, the other end has a bearing right into the plate= pully side and has a seal which is inside the plate too and held in by retaining rings, ill post some pictures of the drum and one of the bearings where that peice that got broke goes

[caseyssugarshack93]

heres a picture

[Haynes Forest Products]

from what I can see is that end doesnt have a seal because the shaft doesnt go out the plate. So that internal piece was a end PLAY COLLAR??? Was there shims are did you tighten till the end play was just right??? Now lets get to the problem that started this thread DID you over tighten the collar causing it to bind??? Now as far as can you run the pump with it in place and the bolts in it to fill the holes MAYBE when you put it back in does the pump turn without binding??

[Haynes Forest Products]

If there is a snap ring that holds the bearing in place???????IF so then you pulled the drum to tight against the side plate causing it to bind and then cracking the collar:mad:

[caseyssugarshack93]

I dont think that peice had anything to do with it binding because i had all the bolts out of that peice when i tighend down the end plate it still binded, If you think i can still run the pump without the peice then ill just put it back together and try the plate deal again and if it still binds im just going to put some rtv and let it harded to ack like a shim, so the big question is Do i need that peice really? because that peice from what i can seel just like puts pressur on the bearing to keep the bearing in plate, but the bearing fits pretty tight into the plate so i dont thing it would go anywhere and plus the other end plate would hole it in too but what you think?


Thanks

NATE


After i found out i broke that peice i took that pump off and threw the alamo 30 on there and only has 2 oilers one feed and one bearing because i dont wanna take that pump apart and drill and tap the endplate because im sure id end up not being able to tighten the end plate again RIGHT!

heres a picture of the updated pump = this one was suppto be my back up because its small but still should handle a 1000 tap bush?, i think im going to put it on a 300 tap though and a bb4 on a 1000

[Haynes Forest Products]

Im thinking the worst that can happen is the bearing can slide back and forth in its area. So it sounds and looks like it was a bearing keeper. I would run it as is without the collar in place.

Why do you have the pump and motor so close together on the back up unit. Keep in mind that a pullys HP rating is based on the amount of surface that the belt comes in contact with. It looks as though you will only have about 1/3rd of the belt on the small pully. I have never seen a clutch on a set up like that GOOD THINKING....I hope

[caseyssugarshack93]

alright haynes then thats what ill probably do unless i can find one pretty soon iim going to use that pump for back up now,


And as for the sure alamo 30, Thats how the holes where in the plate haynes, the pump was there and i used the electic motor mounting spots, I probably could move it over some, but i dont think it would be worth it, an other thing i dont like is that the exhaust blows right on the outlet of the pump!

[Haynes Forest Products]

I had that problem with my set up if you look at the foto of the beast you can see that I ran my ex. up. some motors have options as far as mufflers. Im going to go watch Hockey USA USA USA

[caseyssugarshack93]

haynes what about if i turn the pump and motor around that way the exhaust would be pointing the oppistie direction and all id have to do is move my reclaimer set up, right, and ill put the alamo back together aslong as it would be safe to put it back together without that bearing thing

[3rdgen.maple]

That is a seal that keeps the oil out of the vanes and also keeps the carbon from entering the bearing and wearing it out. You could run it without it but if you do plan on a rebuild again next year. Your binding is coming from the end journals not aligned to each other properly. The bearings are offset to allow the vanes to drop. If one side of the journal it tweeked even slightly it will cause the binding you have. Also if the pump seen extreme heat and fatigue the pump housing itself may need to have the faces of it milled. And in most cases you can tell if it has been milled when you find the shims in them to compensate for the metal that was machined off. Just like heads on a motor when she blows up. Mechanics take the heads off and check to see if the surface is flat if not they go to a machine shop and get resurfaced. You can eyeball this pretty quick with a straightedge to see if they are not true. If this is the case then you need to get it resurfaced. If not the problem lies in the alignment of the journals. Yes you can compensate by shims or other means but it is not the right way to do it and will cause chattering and premature wear. Tolerances are just about zilch when it comes to the journals. I rebuild atleast a dozen of these a year and I can tell you that the manufacture allows room for end play on the bearings so they do not bind. Can I be wrong absolutely but I have done enough of them to confidently say your journals are not aligned right. If you want it to be right and not have to do it again get the broken parts replaced and install the journals like I posted previous. If you want a quick cheap get me by fix then slap it together shim it, hit it,tweek it and hook it up and go get some sap.

[caseyssugarshack93]

3rdgen, Do they make that peice i broke,? id like to find one so i can atleast have together right , if i can find one i pretty much have no other choice but to put it together without that correct?, i was thinking of it being welded but it broke right in the center of each spot where each bolt goes so thats a negative on that, so hopfully i can find one! know of anyone 3rdgen?

[caseyssugarshack93]

just a quick question why woudnt u want oil going into the vanes? more lubercation, but im guess the main factor for that peice is the carbon one?

[3rdgen.maple]

Yes I am refering to the carbon vanes. Excessive oil will swell the carbon vanes and they will not drop. The seal actaully has many purposes. It keeps the carbon out of the bearing, the dirty oil in the bearing from entering the vanes and the most important is if the bearing fails the particles do not end up in the pump and score the housing and tear the vanes apart. In the application the pumps I rebuild is the printing industry and you use both the vacuum and the suction. So if the equipment is running nice white paper you do not want any oil in the vanes cause it will blow it out the lines and get all over the paper. If they are metal vanes and in the sap application the more lubrication the better as long as the oil is maintained and does not gum up the vanes from dropping. I don't mean to confuse or fustrate you by any means I just hate to see you put all this work in the pump and it fails during peak time for you. I think if you put it together as is, it will work but make sure you keep an eye on it and at the end of the season try to get it right. If you want at the end of the year you can send it my way or I could pick it up on one of many trips I make up to the Ausable during the summer. I will not charge you any labor at all call it a favor.
As for the part if you contact Kinequip in East Syracuse they should be able to get you the part. Also they are very helpful and they can answer your questions and maybe give you a better answer to the problem you are having. I will forwarn you though pump parts are not cheap and that peice that broke is heat treated and the reason it broke so easy. If you ever take a ride out that way you would be in pump heaven. Good luck Nate

[KenWP]

Where you got the bearings in the first place ask if they have the seal. You might be lucky and they have such a critter.
Up here they call Kinequip Kinecor . Same kind of service and the guy there even speaks english. He found me a part for the next day. I had to get used to being on this end of the time chain with businesses to the west still open after 4 here.

[caseyssugarshack93]

alright, i may beable to find one at a surge dealer in plattsburgh if not ill call around, thanks guys, if worse comes to worse may have to just slap it together and run er

[3rdgen.maple]

Good to hear Nate. My offer still stands anytime. Haynes my appologies I do not mean to step on your toes and hope I was not coming across like I was.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Heck no Im learning as we go. I think the collar is cast so its not weldable as I can see. it would be easer to find a guy with a machine shop and get it made. Im surprised more didnt jump in and help out. I will say that cassey did with his computer what would take me a week now if we can get him to give us all the info first with pics and diagrams we would all learn more USA USA USA.......sorry Ken