New Leader arch

[sweetwoodmaple]

Was able to get a raised flue set of 2 x 6 pans for a good price.

I therefore need to purchase an arch. Does anyone have experience with Leader's new single door 24" wide arch?

I am used to two doors. It seems to help the cooling of the pans during firing (use one door at a time), but Leader claims this isn't a big deal.

They also changed the arch to straight sides, so now you have to mortar the brick in to keep them from falling.

Sounds to me like they want to save fab cost...but I might be wrong here.

Any experience here with these?

Brian

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Brian,

The reason behind the design of the square sided arch is that the firing box is bigger and it gives you more firing capacity and better combustion. I have a 2x8 Leader welded drop flue and I have the new style arch. Besides being square sided, it is also 8" higher than a stanard arch, so the firebox is a lot bigger. If you are going to buy a new arch, go with the square sided and get the inferno arch. It comes with an airtight front and blower on the back. It will set you back about an extra $ 1000, but it is well worth the additional investment. You will probably get 8 to 10 more gph at least and use less wood. I have boiled three times this year and still have almost no ash. Nearly all the ash is completely combusted in the fire and what little bit of ash I have is blown out the top of the stack. I am using less wood than last year and getting a lot higher gph. Nearly all my wood has been seasoned for at least 5 years and has been drying for at least 9 months before season. If you can't do this with your wood, then an inferno arch will help even more if you wood isn't as high of quality.

With the arch front I had last year that has the sugarhouse and designs on the front of it, you could stand 5 feet from front of it and keep warm. With the airtight inferno arch, you can touch the front of the door quickly and it will not burn your hand. All that heat I was losing out of the front of the arch now is staying inside the arch.

I keep my entire flue pan boiling from front to back all the time. With the rehostat, I run it wide open on my evaporator. When I fire it, I turn it down to about 1/2 or less and from the time I turn down the rehostat until I finish firing and turn it back up, it takes me aprox 25 seconds. I usually fire it about every 5 to 8 minutes and as soon as the rehostat is turned back up, it's just like you never even fired it. It roars! :D

The firing door on the front of the inferno arch is huge and you can open the handle on it without gloves if you wanted too. I talked to Leader earlier this week and they say the rehostat on my evaporator is set so I should run it wide open and it should be perfect for my evaporator and it seems to be the case. :D

[sweetwoodmaple]

Brandon,

Thanks for the reply. I agree the inferno and fan help you get a very consistent firing and you do use less wood.

My problem comes in cost justification (a wet blanket, I know). :cry: I can get my slab wood from a local sawmill for about $20 per cord (two heaping truck loads) already cut to 18" lengths. Therefore, if you do the math, with an extra cord or so per year lost to efficiency, it isn't worth it for me.

I get 40 gph out of my evaporator, which isn't too shabby without a fan (which I might add myself) and insulated front. Granted, I have to be on top of my game to fire it correctly (fire every 5 minutes with a minute timer).

As far as losing some more heat out the front, I'm sure it makes some difference in boiling rate. But, compared to how much heat is lost out the stack (a wood evaporator probably is 20% efficient?)...hmmm...I don't know. Definately safer to not get burnt on red hot doors. 8O

Brian

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Brian,

If you don't go with the inferno arch, then install a blower on the front or back of the arch and insulate the arch front. You can insulate the front and that would help quite a bit. I like the airtight arch as I can get nearly complete combustion so I don't have to deal with ashes and am not losing much heat.

Definitely pay the extra and go with stainless arch and stainless stack. Well worth the additional investment. :D

[sweetwoodmaple]

Yes, I wish someone would have pursuaded me to go with stainless on my existing 2 x 6. The galv get's burnt out in no time!

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

If there is nothing wrong with the arch you have, then just have the galvanized replaced. I can give you the name of an Amish in Salisbury that will do it really cheap and do a good job! :D No need investing in a new arch if all it needs is sheat metal! :D :wink:

[sweetwoodmaple]

Brandon,

No, I'm getting an additional 2 x 6 set of pans that need an arch.

(Yes, I am a glutton for punishment and will have two evaporators side by side)

And you were talking about what earlier? Wood consumption? I will be the peak of inefficiency with this setup. :o

Brian

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Brian,

Why not look around and find a decent used arch for the 2x6 pans and then sell both evaporators and get a good used 3x8. You should be able to buy a really nice used 3x8 for what you could sell both of the smaller evaporators for and probably have spare change. A 3x8 will get at least double what a 2x6 will and probably more. :D

[sweetwoodmaple]

Brandon,

I was actually considering a 3 x 10 to make it worth my while on evap rate.

My problem is...I will never go beyond 500 taps in my woods. Therefore, I'm looking for something to get me "out of the woods" on the big running days for the least $$ investment. I am not planning to make this a large "profitable" business (sugaring is rarely profitable if you figure your time is worth anything). Don't get me wrong, I love doing it.

Anyway, I bought a welded 2 x 6 sst raised flue pan set for $300. :lol: If I add a used or amish built arch for $700 or so, that makes an even $1000 to get an extra 30 or 35 gph.

As far as selling two evaporators and having enough to buy another one, I guess that depends. I'm not sure that I could get a good used 3 x 10 or for $3.5k? I think it would be more like $5k for a good used 3 x 10. (I realize you were talking 3 x 8 in your earlier post)

Plus, there is all the work of selling, tearing down, and completely rearranging my sugar house.

Decision...Decisions, I guess. :?

Brian

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I think you could get a nice 3x 10 for around $ 3 to $ 4 k. If the evaporators you have are in good condition, you shouldn't have any problem selling them for around $ 2 k.

Hard enough to keep up with one evaporator and all the other things going on without having to keep up with 2! 8O :lol: :lol: :lol: :wink:

[sweetwoodmaple]

Yeah, might be a groove worn in the cement running back and forth.

Figure I could try it for a year and see...

Of course, I could get the wife to fire the other one. Well...maybe not. :roll:

[Seibold's Sugarhouse]

Brian,
I have a brand new Leader Arch(2x6). I haven't boiled yet due to this great weather :cry: I'll let you know what I think of it, I'm also concerned about the one door vs. two door question, but all in all I think I will like the new setup.

Brandon,
Dave Bascom gave me this idea for the blowers: place a regular on/off switch inline with the rehosat. This will prolong the life of the rehosat. Turning it up and down all day long while you boil will burn it up and it is a $50+ item. With the on/off switch you can just turn it off quick while you open the doors and then turn it back on.
Jason

[sweetwoodmaple]

I will be trying a different approach this week with making a wood saver.

Instead of a rheostat, I am going to build in some air diverters so I can tune the output flow to match my evaporator. Basically, instead of using the rheostat to lessen the flow, I'll just let some of it out before it gets to the fire.

Kind of like the Vacuum sweeper hoses that have an air inlet to lessen the vacuum flow at the end of the accessory hose.

We'll see, I might be buying a rheostat if this doesn't work. :wink:

Brian

[brookledge]

Wouldn't that kick up a lot of dust. may be I'm not following you. At the very least you could put in a 50 cent switch to shut off momentarilly while you fire it if you didn't want to put in a rheostat.

[syrupmaker]

Sweetwoodmaple....If you have an amp meter check the amperage on the motor during different settings of your baffle set up. If you don't keep some restriction on a squirrel cage blower you can overload the motor causing it to burn up the windings. :cry: If the motor has thermal overload protection it helps, but could cause nuisance tripping that will only let it run when the overload resets itself. Spoils a boil real quick when the blower doesn't start when you want it too. :x

Rick

[green4310]

Sweetwoodmaple has it right. Less restriction = higher watts. I just set mine up with a switch. Works well.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Anyone else throw the switch when they fire?? Never heard of that before and that is not what Leader recommends?? I dunno. 8O Sounds good anyway, but from what I have been told is only turn it down about 1/2 so the fire keeps churning as you fire and it don't slow down as much. :?: :?:

[sweetwoodmaple]

Sorry, I wasn't clear.

I'm using an on/off switch for sure. Don't want to get a face full of fire!

Also, I am venting the excess so as not to overload the motor (won't add restriction).

As far as kicking up dust, will keep the place clean anyway (at least the cement floor) :lol:

Brian

[syrupmaker]

Brian.... A blower wheel on a motor acts just the opposite when it is left open to blow freely. In other words to little restriction is what will cause it to burn up. Squirrel cages cavitate or back flow against themselves causing the overload.

Rick

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Rick,

What are you saying exactly?? Are you saying if it is turned off and the stack is causing it to spin backwards a little from the draft that this will burn it up?? 8O

[sweetwoodmaple]

Brandon,

With your sealed front arch, you need to turn yours down (but not off) otherwise your fire gets no air from the bottom, which means all your air would come from the door opening. That would cool the pans and cause a disruption in the gradient.

My arch still has the fire door on the bottom, so I would crack that while firing, then close and turn the fan back on.

Rick,

I agree on cavitation. Though, as long as I am under the running amperage rating of the motor, things should be ok. I don't believe just letting it run unrestricted will overload the motor. Not sure if this applies if you draw a draft through it while firing, maybe that might be a problem with cavitation and overload?

Brian

[sweetwoodmaple]

All,

Take a look at my personal gallery. I made a wood saver tonight.

You rheostat guys might have got to me. I'll try it by baffling first, but may end up with speed control and switch. :D

Brian

[Seibold's Sugarhouse]

Well, I boiled for the first time Saturday with my new Leader Arch. Things went pretty smooth, however there was one annoying problem with the blower. A small ammount of ash and exhust fumes were leaking out the fire door. Is this normal with a blower??? I wasn't happy with the ash falling into the syrup pan and it was quite hard to stand anywhere near the front of the evaporator due to the wood smoke blowing out. I going to look for a rope type gasket for the fire door, hopefully this will solve the problem. I just wondering if this is normal and if anyone else has installed a gasket around the fire door. Also this was my first boil with a steam hood, I only got about 3 gallons of condensation all day (150 gallons of sap) I thought I would get alot more??? (2x3 drop flue) I'm just wondering how much other people get?? (there is a small preheater in the hood)

Thanks
Jason

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Jason,

Sounds like you hood is drafting good and pulling about all the steam out the stack. I don't know how much I get as I have a 3 compartment stainless sink and I pipe it into it, but I would guess about 6 to 10 gallons per hour boiling off 45 to 50 gallons of sap. I do have a drip pan below the preheater and it catches anything that comes back down the steam stack which seems to be basically nothing.

As far as the ash, unless you have an airtight locking front, you are going to get ash. Even with an airtight front, you have to make sure you get everything else including between pans and rail, between syrup and flue pan and around the bottom of arch or anywhere else it would leak. I don't get any ash at all from mine except the little bit that falls out during fire. I have yet to empty ashes and have boiled off 3,000+ gallons and I only have aproximately 1" of ashes or less. Blowers work great, but are messy without an airtight door or some modifications to your existing evaporator to help seal it off as much as possible. :?

[brookledge]

Jason,
Brandon pretty much sumed it up. Just wondering about the pre-heater was it made by the manufactuer or is it home made. If it is home made it just might not be big enough. Another thing is that the condensate may be dripping back into the flue pan. Something to check. And another thing to check to see if it is working ok is to check the temp of your sap coming out of the pre-heater it should be atleast 180 but preferably 200 to 210. I have a leader inferno arch and I do not have any smoke or ash problems. If you have a air tight arch contact your dealer because something is not right. If you have regular arch with double doors its going to blow smoke because it was not designed to be air tight. Try to turn the blower speed down a little maybe.
Keith

[sweetwoodmaple]

Jason,

I'll be hooking up my forced air this week and I have a conventional arch front as well.

Do you have wood saver grates or conventional cast iron? I noticed the wood saver grates have a special design. I am wondering if this helps the ash problem as it forces the air through all the tiny holes instead of right in front of the firing door?

I was temped to create some sort of barrier (made of fire brick or?) to help direct the air flow up through fire in the middle of the fire box instead of letting the full force air hit the draft door and firing doors.

Brian

[Seibold's Sugarhouse]

Keith,
The sap temp. coming out of my preheater is about 140 - 150. The preheater came with the hood that I bought used. I would approximate that there is about 15 feet of 3/4 copper pipe inside the hood. I have a 2x3 flue pan, is this enough copper?

Brian,
I have conventional Leader grates, they say that on a 2' wide evap you don't need the special woodsaver grates. I spoke with Don at G.H. Grimm today and he suggested that I place bricks completely infront of the draft door and then place a row of bricks on the grates just behind the fire door, he says this should help stop the air from running up the door. I'll try it this weekend, however I also stopped at the local woodstove store and bought some 3/8 rope gasket to line the edges of the fire door. Don at Grimm said he had never heard of anyone doing this but he did think it would work. I purchased some special glue with the gasket however I am concerned that I will not be able it secure it well enough to the door.
Any Ideas??

Jason

[brookledge]

Jason,
As Jeremy said try to dampen the steam to get it hotter in the hood. And again check to make sure that the condesate is not leaking back into the flue pan on you. As far as how much condensate I get from my pre-heater , I'm not sure but I know it is more than 3 gallons for 150 gal. of sap. Now I'm curious and will have to find out. Good luck.
Keith

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Sounds like to me you don't have a drip pan underneath your preheater?? Most of the hot water comes from my drip pan underneath the preheater. I wouldn't be getting very much hot water if it wasn't for that.

As far as the grates, I have conventional grates and don't have hardly any ash in my pit from the entire season. I DO have 2 firebricks across the front of my grates next to my door to cut down on the heat blowing against the door and to put the air into the fire and not blowing out the grates where little or no wood is. Per Leader, you need to keep the wood aproximately 6" from the firing door. Leader has come out with a new forced air grate for 2' evaporators, but the new grates are only 18" long. The way they work is that you build a wall up inside the firepit aproximately 6" from the front of the fireing door and the grates go there. At first, I didn't like the idea but the more I have thougt about it, the better I think it would work. :D

[brookledge]

Jason,
After you asked about how much condensate comes off your pre-heater, I checked mine. I get 35 gallons per hour of water that runs into a five gallon pail with a hose hooked to a bulkhead fitting on the top. I always have a full pail of 190 degree water for cleaning. If it wasn't for the freezing temps it would be nice to utilize the hot water more. To bad my house wasn't close by or I'd definately think of some way to use it more.
As far as how much you should get is that it is all relevant to the size of your pre-heater. My flue pan is 3X8 and I get 140 gal. per hour. So if you boiled 150 gallons you should have gotten around 35-40 gallons of condensate.
Hope you are doing better.
Keith

[Seibold's Sugarhouse]

I do have a drip tray under my preheater pipes however I'm not sure if any condenstate was leaking back into the flue pan as I have two threaded rods that run through the whole setup and come out on the underside of the driptray. I will try to seal up the holes in the driptray that the rods go through (I bought some fender washers, I think these will seal up the holes better than the regular washers I had). Also I don't have any steam stack on the hood. I bought it but never put it up, to damper the steam I put a ceramic tile halfway over the opening in the hood. Do I need to put the stack up? I really just wanted the hood for the preheater.

Also I have glued a 3/8 rope gasket to the arch front and the door still closes properly. I will also try the brick method.

I'll be boiling on Sunday, we'll see what happens. :D

Jason

[brookledge]

Jason, you may want to try a rubber washer so when you tighten it up it will seal the treaded rod better.
Keith

[sweetwoodmaple]

Used the wood saver for the first time after buying a larger fan. Works wonderful. :D :D

Got a solid 40-42 gph including startup and shutdown. Never seen steam like that out of my evaporator.

I have about $100 total in my wood saver including the stainless steel plenum. Took about 3 cfm per square inch of flue area to make things really cook.

Brian

[saphead]

Is there a rule of thumb for fan cfm? What do you mean by flue area? Square inches of smoke stack ID ?

[sweetwoodmaple]

Yes, i.e. a 10" stack has 78 sq in.

I was not able to find a good rule of thumb out there, that's why I posted what worked for me. The only one I found was 1-2 cfm per sq inch area, which was not enough in my case (think that was makeup air for a fireplace).

Better to size larger and use the rheostat that have to buy another fan like me! :D