Flat aerial tubing

[sweetwoodmaple]

All the books I've read have made a big deal about keeping your tubing as flat as possible on both your branch lines and main line (usually attached to wire).

I've noticed some difference, but am not sure if the books are referring back to the vented systems. My system is non vented.

Seems pretty hard to avoid sags since the plastic tubing has such a high thermal expansion coefficient. You put it up in 15 degree weather and by 45 degrees it's bunched up or sagging to the ground!

Any opinions or experience here?

Thanks!

P.S. I'm depressed after looking at the long range forcast today. Looks like a cold lock up for at least 1-2 weeks.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I usually put mine up in the summer, so during syrup season, there is no problem at all. Besides, it is a lot easier to work with at 80 degrees vs 20. If you are using a good rigid tubing like 4 seasons, Beaver River or Lamb 30P, you shouldn't have too much problem with it sagging even with temp changes.

What kind of tubing are you using??

[sweetwoodmaple]

Brandon,

30P is what I use. I am one of the unlucky contestants that have to take my tubing down every year.

The advantage is that 75% of my trees are on my neighbor's property that I use for free.

I think the moral to this story is that I have to put up with more sags.

Still...do the sags make a difference or not?

Brian

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Brian,

Might want to restretch it and cut out a few inches and put connectors in where neccessary. If it sags too much, the sap will lay in the sag and block the gases from passing and the gas will cause pressure in the lines and slow the sap coming out of the tree down. This is per Glenn Goodrich, but it makes a lot of sense after I thought about it for a while. :D

[emericksmaple]

I may be way off the beaten path here, but could you lay your tubing on the ground? I know it sounds crazy, but some producers around here lay it an the ground and have great results. One producer taps 12000 and he lays it all on the ground and I know he makes as much syrup per tap as anyone around. He uses U.S. maple soft tubing which is easy to work with and it cleans easy. But if you are on level ground or with just a slight slope where laying it down don't work good, I like Brandon's idea with cutting some out. But you have to be careful that you don't strech it too much and shrink it. But as long as you have some slope in your lines I wouldn't worry too much about the sags.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I used to lay my tubing on the ground and had good results with it. I have also seen large producers do it and have good results. They roll it up at the end of the season, so I guess it works good for them as it did for me when I had to roll mine up. :D

[sweetwoodmaple]

Ok, I'll stir the pot a little more to see if you guys still hold to your theory. :wink:

I have an average of 1" drop per foot on my entire layout. I've heard, read and experienced (by pulling a tap) the natural vacuum from my non vented tubing system due to this slope.

My question...can this "natural" vacuum exist if all your lines are perfectly flat with no sags?

Brian

[sweetwoodmaple]

P.S. And the guys that just lay tubing on the ground have lots of sags! :D

[emericksmaple]

Sweetwood, If you have nothing to do Sat we are having our annual tree tapping Sat at 2:00pm at Milroy Farms in Salisbury. I know it is about 3hr dr, but he is the producer with 12000 tap and all of his tubing is on the ground. I can e-mail you direction if you are intrested!!

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I would be interested in stopping by to see your operation and maybe the 12000 tap on the next time I make it up to Henry's which will probably be sometime this summer. Sounds like you have a nice operation and I would enjoy seeing it.

Let me know and I'll touch base with you then! :D

[sweetwoodmaple]

Thanks for the offer on seeing the operation.

Unfortunately, I tapped some extra trees this year, so I need to split some more firewood while the weather is cold and sap isn't running.

Also, I have a neighbor (the only one close to me that taps) with 5000+ taps that lays his tubing on the ground as well. As was stated here, he seems to get as much sap as anyone.

I'll do some more research and post back here when I get more information.

Brian

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[sweetwoodmaple]

Kevin - Would be interested if you could find the doc # or web site link.

I just keep thinking of the times when I was a kid (and when did that end? :wink: ) and you put your straw in the water, covered the end with your finger, then lifted it up out of the glass. That creates a natural vacuum.

Anyway...

Brian

[gmcooper]

I have to ask here but the practice of laying tubing on the ground seems strange at best. Last time I saw anything on it it was from the days of galvanized pipe and the very first tries with tubing. Why wouldn't you just run it tree to tree suspeneded? you pull tight to take out the sags to get the most out of natural vacuum and also to drain lines when sap stops flowing. If you get a line sagging either cut out short section or temporarily tie with string to another tree to keep lines tight? Wouldn't tubing laying on the ground use a lot more and have lots of low pockets that freeze up at night?
Don't want to be offend anyone. If it works for you go for it!
Mark

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[brookledge]

I wonder if it maters where you are on how well leaving it on the ground works. Areas that that have it on ground are in the southern area of the maple belt. I know that when the first experiment with tubing began it was laid on the ground but soon was redesigned to be suspended. The reason I wonder about the area your in is that from expierience if I get alot of snow and it buries my tubing it may freeze up under the snow. If the temp at night only gets to the 20's at night its no problem but if the temp drops to 0 it will more than likely freeze. I have tight lines and vacuum but only have 2-3% slope on some of my lines. I do not know any one up north that lays tubing on the ground any more. Further if you have no vacuum and mice or squirrels chew a hole in your tubing on the ground and it is covered with snow all that sap runs on the ground and you never know it. With vacuum you may be able to tell you are sucking air but have to start digging to find problem.When it is in the air you can spot problems easy. Some years after I tap I can get 2-3 feet of snow and I would hate to have to dig it out. Like I said keeping it on the ground may work for some but I don't think it would work in the cold northern sections.
Keith

[mapleman3]

and I couldn't see using it on the ground without having about 15% grade.. any dip WILL hold sap... and may just stop the flow in that line...hang it if you can, it's only a days worth of work or 2 unless your talking thousands of taps

[sweetwoodmaple]

I need to get that paper from Univ of Vermont that was mentioned earlier. Too bad I can't get it online (have to wait for mail).

If you have piece of tubing that runs perfectly flat at say 3% grade, what creates the natural vacuum if the sap always sits on the bottom half of the line and air at the top? I dont' think any vacuum is created this way since there is an air space the entire length of the line. Wouldn't this act like a vented system with air the entire length?

MHO :wink: ...there has to be sap filling up some part of the line to create the natural vacuum. That's why I think a ground system, sags and all, yields similar sap to lines suspended. (barring chewed, broken or frozen lines that can't be seen, of course)

Brian

[mapleman3]

the question here is, if your line is 5/16ths and you have 15-20 taps on it cuz it's not on vacuum, most likely your lines will be full on normal runs, I don't think you will have sap just covering the bottom half of the line?

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[mapleman3]

:oops: Sorry Kevin, after my computer crash a few months ago I have been sifting through tons of backed up pics from everyone trying to figure out what I have and what I lost, I know I still have yours on a cd along with a couple other guys setups, I will get off my duff and delve into them... I do want to get as many different setups on as I can

[brookledge]

Like I said digging pipe line out of the snow and ice is no fun. I still wonder if those that lay it on the ground what they are yielding per tap. With out vacuum should be able to get .25 gal per tap good vacuum should be able to get .5 gal per tap. The 12,000 tap operation should be getting atleast 3,000 gal per year

[Maple Hill Sugarhouse]

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[sweetwoodmaple]

As I posted earlier (I think :wink: ), I have to take my tubing down from year to year. I have late December and early January to put it back up.

So, yes the banjo string would be great, but it is not an option for me. :cry:

Brian

[sweetwoodmaple]

P.S. And, yes, I have switched over to Lamb 30P semi rigid.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

If you label your tubing correctly when you take it down yearly, it is as easy to install 3 or 4 feet above the ground as it is to roll out on the ground. NO, it is easier because all you do it stretch it as you go and you don't have to worry about where you lay it or if you are maintaining slope. Aprox 130 of the taps I have are where cattle are most of the year. They take them out during sugaring season, but after the season is over, I loosen up the tubing and push it aproximately 6 or 7 feet up in the air and leave it until next season. I then have to pull it back down and stretch it back into place.

Once you get the hang of it, it is a snap. :D

[sweetwoodmaple]

All my tubing is above ground and marked with aluminum tags for putting it up and down year to year. Never though to shoving it up, that might be an option.

I built a loft in my sugar house that stores all the tubing and buckets. Works out pretty well.

Brian