Some Check Valve Adaptors are Breaking

[Tmeeeh]

We installed 1012 check valve adapters today. 26 of them broke while tapping them into the tree. We drill the hole, push in the adapter, give it a few taps with a 1 1/2" square by 14" long piece of spruce, then fit the stubby spout and hit the assembly a few more times. Sometimes the breakage occurs before putting the stubby on but more often after. Sometimes they break with a very light tap other times they crack lengthwise and are hardly noticeable. I don't know if any are split and will leak. Removing the broken adapters is a little tricky. Sometimes they can be pulled with pliers. Other times they break off flush with the tree and have to be drilled out, leaving a less than perfectly round tap hole. The temperature was around freezing and we saw some sap on the warmer trees. It seems they need to be made to be stronger. I have no experience with non-check valve adapters. I am still optimistic about them. I just hope we see a noticeable increase in yield by the end of the season.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Just thinking out loud, but I would think they would be less likely to break tapping them in with a hammer vs a 14" half of a 2x4. Reason being is that you can get more even blows across the entire surface vs a 14" piece of wood which may be hitting off center or on the one side of the adapter causing it to break. I put in 250 of the regular adapters last year and didn't have any of them break.

[sapman]

The last batch of CVs I got last week actually have instructions on installing them. As I've been told before, procedure should be to tap the CV in first, then push the stubby in with a 1/4 turn twist. I haven't tried any yet, so I can't vouch for that method, but sounds good. Good luck with the rest of them!

Tim

[danno]

There was also a prior thread about adding a couple tablespoons of water to the bags of CV to help with curing. I guess they were coming from the manu. so quickly all were not fully cured.

[DS Maple]

Bascom's had instruction sheets for the adaptors last time I was up there. I grabbed one and it does state to hit the CV into the tree and then simply push the stubby into it, (as was previously stated in this thread.) They made it sound like hitting the stubby into the CV was a bad idea. I will likely put mine in next weekend so hopefully they'll work!

[Gary R]

We put 300 of them in today. I didn't have any problems. I tapped the CV in then pushed the stubbie in and 1/4 twist. They seemed to hold well. I second WVM. A small hammer would produce a more even blow.

[KenWP]

I wouldn't hit the stubby into the regular adapters let alone the CV ones. I pushed one togther in the house and had trouble getting them apart. They are friction fit. try soaking the CVs for a while and see if it improves them any.

[Tmeeeh]

Sounds like I could have researched this more before starting to install them. I have preferred using pieces of wood to tap because they don't drive as hard as a hammer.. splitting the bark. I'll try pushing the stubby on by hand. When the frost loosens the spouts and they need to be tightened. It sounds like we ought to dissasemble them and reinsall.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Guess I didn't read your post fully and didn't realize you were hitting spout too after you put it in the adapter. You will have a difficult time getting them apart in the spring by driving the spout into the adapter. Better carry a couple pair of pliers or channel locks to get them apart.

Not sure what you have against a hammer. I carry a 16 ounce claw hammer and choke up on handle about 1/2 way or more and just likely tap the spout in my case but last year it was an adapter. I tap it very lightly 3 to 4 times. I remember last time I posted this Dr Perkins stated it was the same way they do it. I don't think you will have any problem splitting the bark doing it this way as I have done it that way for years and don't have a problem.

About the 3rd or 4th tap, the sound will totally change indicating a fully seated spout or in your case adapter.

PS I was at Harbor Freight a couple of weeks ago as I seldom get to go as I don't have a store close and they had a small claw hammer about 6 inches long total and appeared to be a 16 ounce claw hammer and I think it would have been perfect for tapping. I am still kicking myself for not getting it. Not sure it would have worked good as I only use more expensive hammers as they have a better feel, but it was the perfect size and on top of that it was on sale for $ 2.99.

[KenWP]

I have seen those short handles hammers. My dad was a old time carpenter and he told of a foreman cutting the handle off of a guys hammer becasue he always choked up on it.
I use a funny little hammer I found some place years ago. Has a screw out aluminium handle and a round steel head. have no idea what its for but it seems to work.

[Gerryfamily5]

I installed 600 yesterday and had no problems with breakage.I too got a batch later that had instuctions.Says to drill hole,insert CV,tap in firmly,place stub into CV,and set with the force of a firm tap of the wrist.Do not strike hard.I would leave the stick of wood in the woodshed,and get a small lihgt weight hammer(HOME DEPOT $7) problem solved.

[maple flats]

I haven't put any in yet, but I prefer tapping them in with a med size pair of lineman's pliers. I use the flat side. These are also used to cut side tie wire and other plier needs. They are solid but not too heavy for tapping. Stop tapping on the adapter as soon as the sound changes, then put the stubby in with 1/4 turn while pushing in. My adapters came with water in the bag to aid curing.

[Tmeeeh]

I grew up making syrup with my dad. He let me skip school during sap season. 2010 is my 36th year of making syrup as one of my farm's enterprises. There is always more to learn. There are new methods and new equipment developing all the time. The check valve adapters and methods of installing them are an example of that.

I appreciate the tone of the replies to this thread. The sense of community and sharing of knowledge here contributes to the success of this forum.

[Jim Brown]

We put in 300 CV's yesterday had no problems other than the 7/16 taps don't fit the CV as tight as they fit 5/16 adapters. No problems with breaking but we tap with a small head ball peen hammer and don't drive them home like your hammering 20penny spikes.The 300 CV bush is separate from our main bush so it will be a good test for them to see if they perform as advertized.

works for us!

Jim

[Brian Ryther]

I have broken three out of 750 so far. Is Leader giving replacements for broken ones?

[maplecrest]

like cdl for there failures?

[michelle32]

Tapped 250 yesterday. One broke and two the fingers holding the ball where broke when we took them out of the bag. 100 plus gallons sap today. Checked the lines. Check valves seem to be doing there thing. Still lots of sap in the lines. Keith

[driske]

The guys said they seat up tight with light hammer strokes. No breakage reported. Did find a defective one straight from the bag, it was missing the ball and part of the center housing. Overall, we're liking what we see.
Menard's has a 10oz. wood handle hammer for $3." Trupper", was the name.

[GGervais]

Don't hit the stubby onto the adapter more than 1 light tap if any. I had someone help me hit them 3 or 4 times & I couldn't pull the adapter off the stubby.

[upsmapleman]

I got caught up in the check valve craze and decided to put on 1500 to try. First had to spend two days cutting the 5/16 spouts off that were the craze a few years ago. After replacing a few decided it was faster not to hook spout on tee as we would start tapping in a week. Now every one that happens to point up has ice in it and will not go in adapter. My fault. Out of 700 I broke 3 and 1 was broken out of the bag. Probably an acceptable rate of failure. As I put these together I see a male into a female with another male into a female. Always thought that was a receipe for trouble. Maybe another company could simplify things with a straight male holding the check valve seating into the stubby thus elimating another seating point. I have used adapters for a few years and they slowed down tapping big time. These check valves slow it down even farther due to their very fragile nature.

Dale

[lpakiz]

I was thinking of making a device to drive these CV spouts. Would be 8-10 inches long (maybe 5/8 or 3/4 inch rod??) and have a slide hammer on it. The business end would fit the CV spout and bear on the shoulder of the spout. Couple smart slaps with the weight and done..

Any opinions from those who have already installed these spouts with a hammmer??

[Gary R]

Sorry, sounds like another thing to carry and too much time aligning up. Just tap it square and your done.

[KenWP]

KISS seems to work the best me thinks. I would say that after this season they will have the CV spouts sort of adapted to work better.

[Gerryfamily5]

Sorry I agree with Gary.Just use a small hammer with light taps and your on your way.I had 2 helpers with little experiience,they had no trouble getting the procedure correct.Of the few I put in I broke one but out of 700 only one problem that I can live with.

[driske]

Agree with Dale on the slowing of the tapping procedure. That extra move of properly seating 2 units sure adds to the time spent at the tree.
Weigh that against the additional syrup being made, and I still feel justified in using adapters and now C-V adapters. Be prepared to spend more time tapping though.
Found a couple more defective ones yesterday, 3 per 700 doesn't seem too bad compared to what Toyota is facing- again.

[lmathews]

What is anyone doing when they get a defective cv?Are they replacing them?

[upsmapleman]

Did some more thinking yesterday and maybe if they made the barrel a little longer so the ball was in past the end of spout. The more you do the easier it gets. Just new steps to get use to.

Dale

[AmberRidge]

had about 35 out of 850 break in one day.

[MapleChaser]

We did 1135 of them yesterday and only 1 broke. We bought a hard plastic ball pean hammers from home depot and it work great. It takes about 5-6 light hits on the cv spout 3-4 light hits on the stubby. You have no trouble telling when they are set.

MC

[Brian Ryther]

I have had a few more break the other day when the heavy snow brought branches down on the lines. They broke off right at the tree. You have to drill them out. What a pain in the butt looking for broken CV's in two feet of snow.

[gmcooper]

I have about a 1000 in so far and only broke one of the first ones. That was I wasn't paying attention and drove the stubby way too hard. Had two pull out during the last storm when a limb came down on the lines pulling the line away from the tree and pulled the spouts out with it.

[caseyssugarshack93]

i found a few that wernt molded correctly today the little fingers that hold the ball / there were only like half of them there

[Snow Hill Farm]

only 1 break in 900 taps!

[hillsboro]

Tried 100 check valve spouts with Leader stubbies. Followed recommended tapping steps. 6 defective. 4 tips shattered with plastic hammer. 2 balls sailed to the tank when tapped.
We've tapped over 90,000 Lapierre stubbies since 2002 and have never experienced anything like this level of failure. They are fragile and delicate. Can't wait to try to pry them apart after the season.

[jdj]

So far we have 2500+ in and only 2 broken CV's. Have yet to see a defective one. I hope they work well because they are a little fragile where the fingers hold the ball in, therfore you have to be careful when putting the stubby on.

[trackerguy]

I can't complain, for a $.31 part I expect to throw a few away. It's easy to damage them when they are stuffed into a pouch and I'm grabbing the next one while moving to the next tap - the little fingers get jabbed by another spout during handling. Overall it looks like we'll have about 1.5% that get damaged for various reasons.

[maplwrks]

I hope you guys make a lot of sap from these CV spouts, I don't think they are worth the extra headaches. I don't see paying an extra .13 to achieve a 1.5% failure rate.

[Brent]

I've got about 400 in and now broken 3 or 4. Only one split. The others got deformed cages for the ball. Might be operator error putting in the stubby.

What I think I am seeing is that the bubble stream from them is excessive when put in as instructed ... that is tap in the CV then twist in the stubby.

I've found a couple of light taps reduce the bubble stream.

You're kind of stuck doing this anyway. As freezing seems to loosen all taps in trees, re-seating seems to be needed, and that means tapping on the stubby.

[Brian Ryther]

I don't see paying an extra .13 to achieve a 1.5% failure rate.[/QUOTE]

If they do work... then maybe we will see $.13 (and a few head aches) turned into $15 of profits. Pretty good return if you ask me.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Put in 1175 between yesterday and today. No defective ones and no broken ones. Biggest complaint is some do not seem to seat tightly. Can't be too bad though, we have 22 inches on that line before leak patrol.
Doug

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

With everything new in any industry, things nearly almost always improve from the first time they are introduced. If these are good as or halfway as good as they claim, the demand will be even higher next year and the following years and they will likely work on making them durable. I haven't seen one in person but the pics show they are going to be more fragile than a normal adapter, nature of the beast.

[Brent]

I'll tell you what I'm really afraid of ... that's at the end of the season when we try to get them apart.

I had tapped and placed one in hollow tree that was bleeding air like mad. After trying to stop the leaks I tried to separate it. Ouch, it won. It's still got the stubby in it. Then we'll see more breakages.

[sapman]

So far in 1020 installed, only one broke. I pushed to hard on the stubby and the check cracked. A lot of the checks have been installed by my 13 year-old niece, and nephew who is 10. Guess they got a pretty good feel for it. I have had a couple where the fingers inside got bent back. When I couldn't fix them, I simply seated the stubby with a little more force, and they seem to do OK. We are using a rubber mallet for the job.

Tim

[collinsmapleman2012]

We had 2 crews go out with 200 CVs each my crew had a rubber mallet and the other crew had a regular 16 oz. hammer we only broke 5 and one of them completely shattered cuz the kid hitting them was impatient. the other crew broke 15 and they had some of the balls in the lines... no idea what they did to do that... but they seem to work well enough... and before we used them we put water in the bag and let em soak along with flipping them every few days

[lew]

We put in 1400 last Monday. Didn't have any break. We put 200 in a gallon ziplock bag and added about 2 oz. water, shook and rolled bag, let it set for 2 weeks. No problems. The one problem I am having is that my vacuum is only 15 inches when we normally run 21. I repaired all leaks at releaser and there are no major mainline breaks. Haven't had time to walk lines when the trees are running to check laterals. While walking for obvious leaks we did find a couple of drops that were hanging untapped. We fixed those, but still only 15 inches when the sap is running. Has anybody had any problems with the check valve to stubby connection leaking? They seem very tight to me.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

I have heard of some people having trouble with them leaking. I'm in the same boat as you...haven't had a chance to chase down leaks on laterals yet. I did notice that when putting some stubbies in, that some fit very tightly and some would spin on the CV from their own weight and seemed impossible to get tighter. Also some stubbies seemed to go into the CV full length, while others were seated with about a 1/8 inch gap showing.

[markcasper]

I had 1 crack yesterday just pushing the stubby on and twisting. Another one had the whole center missing. Other than that am not having any problems.

[driske]

Everything fit them well with the exception of the old Maple Experts taps,(ancient), and the CDL stubbies, which were all loose .We cut them all off. The LaPierre stubs were snug with just a twist and a push.
For a new product the overall rate of defect was low,(Eat your heart out Toyota)

[lew]

Our droplines were 5 years old and some of our T's would noy except the stubbies, so we replaced all the drops with Leader T's and Leader stubbies to ensure a tight seal (I hope). I'm not saying they are leaking I was just wondering if this was a place to look. I hope not. That's a lot of looking. We should have time this week to check. After Wednesday we don't have a freeze in the forecast for over a week. Good thing long range forecast are always wrong.

[jdj]

We have been having alot of trouble with the stubbies falling off the CV. We did as Leader said to do, tap CV into hole and push and twist stubbie quarter of turn onto CV. Sunday vacuum was down to 13" do to about 100 drops off the CV's. Finally got them all fixed for now and vacuum is back to 24.5". Needless to say I am getting tired of running around the woods looking for drops that have fallen off the CV's.