What to do after i install the membrane

[caseyssugarshack93]

I have a lappiere 250 turbo, once i install the membrane what do i have to do, Do i use well water to rinse the membrane since the membrans been in that stuff in the membrane canister or do i even have to rinse the mebrane, I hurd of people using there first sap to make some premate and rinse with that what is really the best way, can i use wellwater?


thanks

NATE

[Breezy Lane Sugarworks]

I think we have the same or similar machine and I put my membranes in the machine and do a rinse for about 15-20ish minutes with warmish well water from our milking parlor(roughly 100 or so gallons). then I drain the machine and put the sap to it. But I keep the preservative mix in the storage vessels because at the end of the season I keep extra permeate and I do 2 washes and 2-3 rinses and then put the membranes back in the preservative mix and bring them back and put them downstairs at home.

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Nate,
I used well water last year (my first) and it was a mistake. The thought of using a couple hundred gallons of sap to rinse with and pour down the drain just really bugged me...throwing away syrup. Long story short, I have very hard well water and I got lots of minerals in my membrane immediately so I was operating at a reduced performance level the whole season. I had the membrane professionally cleaned at the end of season and they got it back above 100%. This year, I guess sap goes down the drain:(

[markcasper]

I asked Pete Roth about this back in December. He said to get some soft water from someones water softner. (I have very hard water) I know theres some springs way up in the heifer pasture about 3 miles away. The water runs out of the side of the hill yearround. I asked him if I could drive up and suck a tank load of that for the RO. He said that would be AOK.

My question, how do you know if that water is hard. I thought water running from a spring was soft water. Does anybody know for sure on this? He strongly shunned the idea of wasting sap on this procedure. When I asked him if he used first run sap for rinsing his RO, he told me that I was on the mapletrader to much.

[mountainvan]

have your water tested. I bet up in the daks you do not have hard water, not the same geology as the midwest.

[802maple]

I know it is hard thing to do, but the companies recommend it and I never had a membrane lose production over the year. And believe me know one abused them like I do. I don't know what Peter does about concentrating sap but I know what I do and I know who he is talking about on Mapletrader.

I know a 100 dollars of sap that should be dropped on the ground anyway is easier than not sleeping thru the season, right Doug.


I asked Pete Roth about this back in December. He said to get some soft water from someones water softner. (I have very hard water) I know theres some springs way up in the heifer pasture about 3 miles away. The water runs out of the side of the hill yearround. I asked him if I could drive up and suck a tank load of that for the RO. He said that would be AOK.

My question, how do you know if that water is hard. I thought water running from a spring was soft water. Does anybody know for sure on this? He strongly shunned the idea of wasting sap on this procedure. When I asked him if he used first run sap for rinsing his RO, he told me that I was on the mapletrader to much.

[ennismaple]

We run a couple hundred gallons of the first sap through ours to get rid of the preservative. It's generally low in sugar content anyways and I don't want to risk plugging it with hard water.

[DrTimPerkins]

We run a couple hundred gallons of the first sap through ours to get rid of the preservative. It's generally low in sugar content anyways and I don't want to risk plugging it with hard water.

Whatever you do...don't use hard water. Call your CDL dealer or Nick Atherton (CDL USA in St. Albans, VT). Those folks are your best source of technical info on CDL machines. Of course the FIRST thing you should do is read through the manuals. About 90% of problems with ROs are operator error or negligence (insufficient rinsing or washing).

[WMF]

I have used well water and or spring water both of which could be considered "hard" with no ill effects but I guess I wouldn't tell someone else with a new multi thousand dollar RO to do the same.

My personal opinion is that running a few hundred gallons of hard water over a couple of hours is fine but the RO manufacturers figure many wells are chlorinated and chlorine will damage membranes quick.

What is the dividing line between hard and soft water and where does sap fall as it has some hardness to it?

[KenWP]

Are you guys useing SMBS for the membranes. I am wondering as its used in wine makeing also to sterilize wine before adding yeast and it basically disapears in 24 hours.

[802maple]

Some sugarmakers having good luck with their water does not give blanket coverage fro everybody as wells are different. I have been to training seminars for nearly every brand and they have all said use alittle of the sap that you should be letting run on the ground when tapping anyway. Also when I became a factory trained CDL service tech I was told the same thing.
I have explained what I do before and that is I concentrate 200 to 300 gallons of sap on very low pressure. I let the first 100 gallons or so of permeate run down the drain and then I save the rest of the permeate which will be mostly pure and then I rinse with that. The concentrate has removed most of the preservative from the concentrate side of membrane and the permeate will remove the rest

[driske]

Piggy back or steam pan condensate should be soft. Let it cool and there's your in house source of rinse water. Works great to warm up and speed up rinses any time your membrane calls for it during season too.
I know it takes some boiling time on raw sap to acquire a supply, but probably is no more of a hassle than pumping from a open spring at a remote location.

[lpakiz]

I got some test strips at Menards to test for hard water. They are in a (free) brochure near the water sofeners.

[driske]

So right" 802," give us clean, mineral free membranes and a good nights sleep, any day.
Mark, Pete's comment on time spent on Maple Trader !!! Priceless.LOL.

[802maple]

driske is 100 percent right about condensate from your pig or preheater.

[markcasper]

If I take a cupful of this 'spring' water and boil it on the stove until gone, you should be able to determine if its hard or not-right or wrong?

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

If it's hard, it will leave a whitish calcium residue in the bottom of the pot you boiled in on and/or have some buildup.

[Homestead Maple]

What about water that has had the Ph adjusted by adding Potassium hydroxide added at the pump house? The water in the town where I work has the Ph adjusted from around 6.4 to 7.4 to over come the hardness. The hardness comes from some mangenese in the water. The amount of Potassium hydroxide added is 1/2ppm or 1/2 gallon of Potassium hydroxide to a million gallons of water. Any thoughts Dr. Perkins?

[maplwrks]

I wouldn't put it through my RO, I would run some sap on the ground and then rinse it.

[802maple]

Anybody that is worried about dumping alittle sap on the ground and throwing alittle money away by using the only consistant rinsing source there is, may just be in the wrong business. I hope I didn't hurt any feelings

[caseyssugarshack93]

Thanks guys, im going with using sap to rince the membrane

[DrTimPerkins]

What about water that has had the Ph adjusted by adding Potassium hydroxide added at the pump house?

I readily defer to the experts in this matter. I attended a seminar on proper RO use, maintenance, and common trouble areas given by Nick Atherton (CDL U.S.A., Swanton, VT) in January. Absolutely EXCELLENT presentation. He recommended that unless you had a certain source of soft water, condensate, or permeate, you should use sap and let the concentrate run on the ground for a little while to ensure you've gotten out all the preservative. After you've concentrated a bit, you will have permeate to rinse. A brief summary of that presentation written by Tim Wilmot (UVM Maple Extension) will appear in the next "Farming" magazine.

If you do use hard water you can temporarily or permanently reduce the throughput of your membrane, which seems like an extraordinarily bad idea to me. ROs and membranes are amazing machines if you treat them right. We've had an Springtech 500 for about 8 yrs.. It still benchmarks within a few % of the day we got it, primarily because it has been well taken care of. The membrane has never been professionally cleaned.....never needed it. If you abuse them, you'll pay in lost throughput, and probably will be buying a new membrane before long.

We added about 900 taps this year so upgraded to a Springtech 1000 Turbo. Looking forward to seeing what it'll do.

[Homestead Maple]

Thank you for the response. How many taps total will you process with the 1,000. I have some friends up the road a ways that have a Turbo 1,000 and they tap around 6,200. They are very pleased with the unit.

[caseyssugarshack93]

Do you guys conentrate the sap when i do this or Since it with the sap? with high pressure pump on or off?

[maplwrks]

Concentrate just like you were keeping the sap---just save the permeate and throw the concentrate. You don't need to do this for very long, maybe a 1/2 hr or so and then start saving the concentrate.