UV lighting????

[smitty76]

anybody know the dif of a regular uv light vers a leader(or whatever brand) uv light?
looking for experience on this subject.

any info is appreciated.

Smitty76

[3rdgen.maple]

Smitty do a search on here it has been a topic that comes up every couple months..

[smitty76]

thank you 3rdgen.:D

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I run all my sap thru a Wedco light that Leader sells in their catalogs. Picked up one a few years ago for around $ 200 shipped to me. Some kind of barn burner internet special. I think it helps some as I hold sap sometimes as long as 7 to 10 days.

[Bucket Head]

Brandon,

Do you run the sap through it only once or more than once? Each day? I know of one producer who constantly recirculates it until he boils it. Just wondering how to go about treating the sap. I have a UV light and wanted to try it, but was unsure of the best way to utilize it. Thanks.

steve

[smitty76]

Is it better to get a inline and recurculate or is it better to have one in your tank shining down on the sap? Some of what I've gathered here is that the sugar in the sap absurbs the uv light so a inline unit may be better.:confused:

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

The inline will be needed to do much to your sap. A regular one can be mounted in your tank and will reduce bacteria growth when the tank is empty.

[DrTimPerkins]

Is it better to get a inline and recurculate or is it better to have one in your tank shining down on the sap?

Either run it through a UV unit immediately after filtering, or recirculate it through the unit. UV lights suspended above a tank do next to nothing because UV will only penetrate a fraction of an inch through sap. The flow through sap units cause sap to flow through a very thin area close to the bulb to kill microbes.

[smitty76]

Thank you Dr. That was the answer I was looking for. Looks like I am going to have to buy one.

[smitty76]

Ok, I have another ?. Are all uv bacteria killing lights the same? I have taken on(due to low funds:( :() the job of making my own. There are alot of these uv light bulb varieties to choose from. I have drawn up one that is (of actual light to sap) 12 in long and 2 in in diameter. I plan on 6-9 gpm.

Does anyone think I am crazy:evil:

I want it done for this season(2 weeks) yeah right.

I will try to get some pics if I can.:twisted:

[Bucket Head]

Those dimensions are just about what the factory made lights are. It would work just as well as the factory ones.

The problem with this style light is that they don't kill all the bacteria. According to Cornell Univ. the Oesco brand unit is the only one that does a complete kill. Instead of a light inside a tube of sap( like yours and mine) Oesco has a small crystal tube of sap surrounded by many UV lights for 100% light saturation. Its proven, but its also $3300.

You know what the best homemade UV treatment device is? Believe it or not, its a rain gutter with UV lights suspended over the gutter lengthwise. Then a small stream of sap is allowed to flow down the gutter. That way the small and shallow stream gets treated the whole length of the gutter. UV light can only penetrate a small amount of sap. Thats why the other style lights don't work completely.

If anyone does build a setup like this, be sure to cover/sheild the gutter or have it where it can't be seen since UV light can be damaging to ones eyesight. Prolonged exposure, like if it was near your evaporator and you were in view of it, would not be good.

Steve

Steve

[DrTimPerkins]

Are all uv bacteria killing lights the same?

No. What you want is a UV Germicidal lamp capable of putting out light down in the 260-300 nm range. This is the most effective portion of the spectrum.

Caution.....UV light is very damaging. It can cause burns, skin cancer, cataracts, eye damage, and other nasties. Take the necessary precautions, especially in regards to shielding your eyes.

Also, if you are going to make your own, which I strongly advise against, you need to have a UV transparent inner housing (presuming the light is in the center and the sap flows between the inner housing and outer casing of the unit -- the standard configuration). If the inner housing is not UV transparent, it won't work to kill bacteria. Most ordinary window glass is NOT transparent to UV light below 300 nm. The housing is often the most expensive part of the whole system because it is often made of quartz glass (not cheap).

Electricity and liquid don't mix.

UV bulbs put out a lot of energy...things can get HOT!

The flow rate through the unit is fairly important.

If you do try to make your own....you've got a fair amount of homework to do first. Otherwise you may have a fairly inexpensive device which is worth far less than you paid for (in other words....it is ineffective at best and dangerous at worst).

Again....I advise against it, but if you do make one, be sure to get fully informed and take all necessary precautions. And to answer the next question...no...I don't have any plans on how to make one.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

I run mine thru a single pass when I pump it out of the 2 tanks on my tractor thru the UV unit and then the filter and into my 625 gallon Sunset milk tank.

[smitty76]

Dr, I have a friend that works in a lab at lmco that is interested in helping me on this. He has some experience with this stuff and well i do not see me helping much. There is way too much to know about this for me to try it.

Smitty76

[NH Maplemaker]

smitty76, the frist year that I used a UV light it was a small unite made for a pond to keep bacteria levels down in the water. I thought that it did a fair job as I noticed that the holding tanks stayed a lot cleaner in late season, maybe it was just a coincidence. Also the years we used it we made more LT syrup than any other years! Maybe also just a coincidence. But it was enough to convence me to install a new stainless one from leader! We will see coincidence or fact!! Oh ya if you do get a plastic pone UV, Make sure you set it up so you can drain it when sap not running! Just do a search on GOOGLE for pone UV filters. Jim L

[smitty76]

Thanks Jim, going there now.

[Z/MAN]

The UV filter that I have in my pond is a unique style. Instead of water just entering on one end and exiting on the other, after it enters the filter canister it swirls around the UV light from top to bottom( sort of like a screw) before exiting. This subjects the water to a lot more UV light then if it just passed right through. I don't know if it would help with the sap but I know it sure helps my pond water stay nice and clear. Another thing to keep in mind is that UV light bulbs slowly lose there potency. They have to be replaced after a given amount of hours.
Paul

[3rdgen.maple]

I really do not believe that the pond uv lights, (which I run in my koi pond also) will have any effect on the bacteria in sap. Like Dr.Perkins said you want a germicidal lamp on under the 300 range. I searched it quite a bit a couple seasons ago. If you are growing green algae in your sap then it might be another story though.

[smitty76]

In my research lately I have found pond uv lights that are both styles. Some are germicidal lights and most are not. Not sure If I am convinced there are the right thing yet either.:( which is too bad cause they are a lot cheaper.

[smitty76]

Ok, I have experienced such enlightenment today. Dr Tim was right about what to know with uv lighting. several different types of them for way different jobs. however I have uncovered the secret for germicidical uv lighting(thanks to the help of my buddy). I will have one for this season.

[Bucket Head]

I did not know UV light bulbs lose their potency over time! Is there a reccomended interval between changes? Do any of you guys do two or three seasons, five seasons, etc. ? I have no idea how much time is on mine.

Steve

[DrTimPerkins]

I did not know UV light bulbs lose their potency over time! Is there a reccomended interval between changes?
Steve

Depends upon the bulb(s). Typically 10,000 hrs, but could be more or less. The output and thus the kill efficacy drops over time. Largely depends on how you use it (leave it on all season or turn it on and off). If you don't remember the last time you changed them ....it's probably time for new bulbs.

[KenWP]

10,000 hours id 416 days so with a 2 month season you would sort of be good for a few years. But if they are like grow light bulbs they loose a lot of umph after one season.

[Bucket Head]

Thanks for the info guys. I guess I'll start looking for a replacement bulb. I don't know what kind of usage is on mine, but if its not up to par, whats the point of using it. I want the thing to do all it can.

Are the bulbs in the syrup catalogs the best ones to get or are there better, and cheaper options out there? Where does everyone go for UV light bulbs?

Steve

[smitty76]

Steve,
I found a website that is the cheapest. google search AMERICAN AQUARIUM SUPPLIES. Be sure to know what wattage and what style socket your bulbs are. And make sure the new bulbs are uv-c bulbs(germacidal uv or between 100nm to 280nm, short wave uv light). When you find the site, just search it for replacement uv bulbs, that will take you to the list of them.:D :) :D :)

[Bucket Head]

Thanks Smitty. I'll look them up.

Steve

[maple flats]

Steve, give me a call, I may be able to get you one for considerably less. I used to be in the water treatment business and can still buy wholesale. I'll need the number on your bulb and I'll get you a price to compare if my source has that number.
Dave

[Bucket Head]

I've been searching for a bulb for my UV light unit, and I think I found one. But now I'm confused as to their wattage vs. the amount of sap that can be treated. I've talked to some folks in the past few days and now have more questions than when I started. Right now the line between fact and fiction is pretty fuzzy.

I know a few of you here have commented that your UV light did help with keeping your sap clearer. Did anyone test their sugar each day to determin sugar loss? If so, what was lost over how long of storage time?

What is the diameter of your housing vs. the dia. of the bulb? Does anyone know what wattage their bulb is? If UV light can only penetrate a small amount of sap, then a larger wattage bulb would do no good? A longer housing and bulb would not be more effective than the shorter units?

I was told today that my unit "would do almost nothing to improve the bacteria ratio"! My unit has a cylindrical housing, 16x3", with a 5/8" diameter bulb. From what I've seen, its pretty close in size to the other sap UV lights that are offered. Mine is rated at 7gpm. and the I.D. tag says it takes a 40 watt. bulb. However, the bulb thats in it has no wattage figure on it.

If UV light can only travel a short distance in sap, my light has "too much" sap around it to do any good? If this is true, then everyones UV light of this style is "mostly ineffective" like I was told?

I really wanted to put a UV light to use this season and I was considering upgrading to a unit that had a higher g.p.m. rating. But if this style of light is'nt doing as much as the makers claim, than whats the point of using it?

What should I do? Replace the bulb and run it? Or look for another style of light?

Steve

[NH Maplemaker]

Bucket Head, The only real way to tell is to try it!! I would change the bulb and hook it up. I'm sure you know what your tanks look like when you clean them before, If you see a differance you will know sure your self!! What have you got to lose? The price of a bulb! Maple is like politics, one guy tell you one thing and the other tells you something else. No one really knows the ture story !! I use one and I think it makes a differance!! Jim L.

[paul]

I agree with jim, beleave none of what you hear and half of what you read. try it for your self and see if it helps you or not. we use a 20" x 2" housing and it works very well for us.

[cropseyvillemark]

Am I correct in thinking that any bulb can only be as effective as the quartz sleeve will allow? I've been concerned about the cleanliness of the sleeve. I have know way of seeing it. I do filter all of the sap before it passes the uv. should an acid soak be done once in a while. I bought the unit used so I have no maint. manual.

[Bucket Head]

Paul,

I agree with you! What brand UV light do you have? How much was it? With those dimensions, it sounds like you have a better sap to light area than I have.

Cropseyvillemark,

Yes, the crystal tube needs to be clean. The whole unit needs to be clean or you end up introducing more bacteria to the sap with the "crud" that was'nt cleaned out. I am in the process of cleaning my unit out. The inside of the housing is horrible. I don't know when it was last cleaned and if it was left "on" after the sap ran out, the crud is baked on. Not good.

Steve

[Bucket Head]

Paul,

One more question: How many gallons per minute does your UV unit flow? Since its only a little different in size than mine, I would guess that its in the 7-10 gpm range?

Steve

[smitty76]

Ok, to start with, is you uv light manufactured to purify sap or just water. The uv will only penetrate the sap(due to the sugars in it) about .150/.200 of an inch. With that said, sap units only have a little space between the quarzt sleeve( all uv light units have a special quartz glass sleeve so that the sap does not touch the bulb) and the tube that the sap flows through. With that said, the flow rate(gph) is determind the amount of time that the .150 thick sap is exposed to the uv light so to increase the flow rate the tube needs to be longer or bigger in diameter or both. Most uv units get longer and not bigger in diameter. The longer the tube is the longer the light bulb needs to be thus increases the wattage. Units that are manufacture for just water(like for your fish ponds) do not need the .150/.200 in max chamber thickness so they can increase their gph by increasing the chamber to what ever size they need to make thier gph's. A rough estimate to figure gph's is 20 gph per watt. so a 10 watt bulb will do 200gph. most units run at 40 gph per watt. 20 gph is more of a sterilizer and is good for a one time thru the light and the 40 gph is more like a reducer and is good for a recirculation of sap. The longer the sap stays in the uv the more bacteria is killed.

Buckethead, your unit will only work with the wattage bulb it was designed for, listed on the lable. Even if the chamber size is too big to be 100% effective for sap, it is still parshally effective. I would use it.

Yes, the glass(quartz)tube needs to be clean. the uv bulbs make alot of heat so be sure not to run this thing dry. the flow of sap cools it. Manufactured uv units should have removeable tubes so you can clean or replace them. So units even have built in scrubbers to clean the glass.

I am almost done building mine and have no experience of sugar lose or anything. After this season I will have a better understanding of that stuff.

I hope this will help you:)

good luck:cool: ;) :D

[Bucket Head]

Smitty,

My unit is from Small Bros. so its for sap, but its no different than the house water units that are out there. Thats why I questioned the chamber size. I know that the unit is only supposed to be run with the reccomended bulb and the UV can't penetrate much sap. Do higher wattage bulbs penetrate more sap?

And speaking of bulbs, don't just call up and give your bulb dimensions and order a bulb. After asking yet more questions after their answers did'nt add up, I have discovered that there are also HO (high output) UV bulbs that come in the same sizes as the standard bulbs. Has anyone changed their UV bulb? Do you know which one your unit was supposed to have? I'll bet a lot of folks have the wrong wattage (too low) in their unit after changing the old one out. Mine for example can take both a 25w or a 40w bulb. I don't know how effective this unit will be, but it would'nt be very effective with only a 25w in it!

Back to the HO bulbs, do they penetrate more sap?

Just so were clear on this, UV can only penetrate a little over 1/8" of an inch ( the .150 figure from earlier post) or was that supposed to be one and a half inches? If its only 1/8", than most of the units/housings out there have a ton of unusable sap space to them.

Steve

[maple flats]

My unit is rated 8 gpm for water. I run it at about 4 gpm from my truck to my tank, and if holding it more than 24 hrs I run it every day. I tried recirculating to re treat but had poor results. Now I run it from one tank to the next all going through the UV and I have held it for 5 days if the temp was 40 or less with very little change in sugar%. I never tried holding longer and when temps are higher I don't hold that long. When I 1st hooked mine up it didn't seem to be as effective, but I found it was me. Please note, you must clean the tank every time, or good UV treated sap going into an unwashed tank is full of bacteria as soon as it hits the tank. I now wash the tank with dilute food grade peroxide and rinse well first. I then let it breakdown for at least an hour open to the sun before final rinse and re use. This does mean you need more tank capacity to be able to do this.

[smitty76]

bucket head, I did mean 1/8 of an inch and I have no experience with ho bulbs. Were did you find these bulbs? I do not think that the higher wattage uv goes that much deeper into the sap but is more intense in the depth that it does and that is the advantage of higher watts. I would deffinantly use the highest watt bulb the unit can safely handle. If it says 40watt max than run a 40 watter. They also make tank uv kits that aren't for the sap but the tank walls instead. I am planning on useing one of these as well but need to do some more research first.

[Bucket Head]

Smitty,

I ended up ordering a bulb from Atlantic Ultraviolet Corporation. I don't know if its a good price or not since I could'nt find any other place that had High Output bulbs of my size. I tried shopping around, including the site you posted, but they did'nt have one.

I hope my unit does help out my sap quality. Only time will tell. Right now though I do wish it was one of the higher flow rate units. I'm envisioning some long "sap unloading" times with this one.

Maybe next year we'll consider investing in a bigger one.

Steve

[smitty76]

I hope the same for mine. No matter how little it does, it has to help. As long as the bulb did not brake the bank than it was not a bad price. I hope to in stall a tank light this weekend to kill the bacteria that bis on the side of the tank. I have done some research that shows positive gain by useing it.
Been a long day for the bro. He got his truck stuck in the bush today when I was at work. took him an hour and a half to get it out. luckily he had dad to help.

[smitty76]

ok, things taking longer than wanted. have made 7 gals of the lightest syrup I have ever made(loving that). hope to have the new light unit operational by friday. I have pics but the file size is too big ti upload them here. Will see what I can do.:cry: :cry:

[Jerome]

I got a 9w submersible uv for an aquarium It is suppose to be good for 100 gals as My tank when full is only 55 I thought fine. I hooked it up last night and things seemed to be fine this morning the sap had a slight brown tinge. As I am now away for ten days am I going to come back to junk or do you think it will be okay? I did run water through for an hour to make sure it was clean.