Nf270

[PATheron]

Any of you guys know anyone that has run an NF 270 membrane in a modern 600 gallon per hour ro or bigger. Im curious how much more it will flow in real life over a mark one membrane. The flow chart shows way more water going through it but wondered if anyone has first hand experiance. Theron

[maplwrks]

Theron--NF270 membranes are high flow membranes. Exactly how much more will go through them compared to a Mark1, I'm unsure. Becareful with the 270, the don't like high concentrations and have been known to pass sugar when pushed above 12%.

[PATheron]

Mike- I know what your saying. Im only going to use it to recirculate up to a percent like 12 and then Ill put my other machine on it. Im worried that Im going to have so much sap that there wont be enough hours in a day to get rid of it. I figure itll only be a recirc machine to just dump water. I think Im even going to put a second membrane on it too. Just dump gallons till it gets up like you said and finish it off with the CDL. Theron

[mountainvan]

cdl was here last week and nick said my nf270 would do 700+ in an hour. That would make me happy.

[driske]

The 700 GPH will hold up at brix levels on raw sap taken to 6-7%. Look for significant reduction in total flow rates once it gets past 9%. That's as high as I've chanced.
Never ran a mark 1 in either of my R.o.'s. i do know some of the neighbors saw flow rates go down to +-420GPH on new machines and membranes last season. Not good.
I'm trying a different approach this year. Happily, I've found an R.O. manufacturer 8 miles down the road.His company is building a few of us locals some models to be used in our maple operations. He has extensive experience in the food industry and has hobbied for 3 years with maple.
The luxury of having parts and service that close is exciting. Half the grey hair I have came from waiting for R.O. parts when breakdowns occurred during major sap flows. (We sugar in Wisconsin)
Anyway I'm retiring my 16 year old Full Flow Turbo compact and adding a 4 membrane unit from the new guy on the block. Also adding a post to the LaPierre, bringing it to 3. No more 38 hour shifts for this old Dad.
In summary, NF 270's have treated me well for the 16 years I've used R.O.s.
Admittedly, I have no personal experience with Mark ! membranes. Several of my friends who did use them last year were exasperated enough with the low flow rates to swap in NF270's mid season. As to sugar loss at Brix levels above 9%, again no experience to say yay or nay. I believe them to be flawless in terms of retention at 8-9% or below.
Get as much info as you can. We made 7,300 gallons of syrup last season so I have some experience , but have much to learn. (Especially about R.O. technology).

[syrupkid]

who in athens makes a ro? if i would have known that before now i maybe would have bought from him i also would like to know a name because i know a few people in the area loking to buy ros i the next few years

[driske]

Syrup kid,
I didn't know about them either, though they've been there for nearly 30 years. Only in the last 3 years have they tackled any Maple related projects.
They have experience in many facets of food processing, and do projects across the globe.
They had a booth at the Maple Institute down in Neilsville in Jan. The dialogue that has ensued with their people has been eye opening.
Anyway, they are located just North of Edgar on the east side of Hwy.H. 18 employees and a host of projects in the works from China to Brazil to Europe.
Web address; www.membranepc.com

[PATheron]

Driske- Im putting a 270 in a 600 gph seprotech machine plus Im adding a column to it and putting a second one in it. My plan like I said is to recirc with the unit up to a point and then send it to my headtank with my cdl with the mark one membrane. You would suggest not going over 9 % with the 270 or with the recirculating so Im only stepping it incrementally would you say I would dare go higher that way? Theron

[Jeff E]

You have to love these guys joining up with a 'wee bit' of experience.
7000+ gallons of SYRUP last year. AWESOME driske!

Side bar question-Theron or other CDL owners, what did you do to get your CDL on line, from membrane storage to ready to rock?
My membrane is sitting in storage solution right now, but in the next week or so I will be getting the sugar house set to go.

[PATheron]

Jeff- I believe Im putting mine together on saturday this week. Ill give you kind of a step by step after I do it again. Ive only done it once and my friend helped me becouse the first year the dealer got it going for me. Theron

[Jeff E]

Thanks man. Go get em!!!

[Mark]

I have been told the Mark 1 maple is the same chemistry as the Filmtec NF90 but the Mark 1 has the smaller center tube which allows them to get in a few more feet of membrane. I think some of the NF 270's problems of passing sugar is caused by strong caustic wash's. Make sure you use a ph meter. I bought some caustic from a local supplier and if I had followed the instructions on the container it would have destroyed the membranes. When you wash a NF 90 you can go to a higher ph and not hurt them but follow the instructions.

[driske]

PA,
I think you are on the right page. Garth suggested a similar approach in our discussions last spring. i.e. Take off the majority of the water, and then step up the brix on a second pass using Mark 1 membrane's.
He also had a novel suggestion regarding testing for sugar loss. Microwave a cup of permeate and see how much, if any sugar remains in/on the cup.
I've found either Garth, Nick, Tim, or Daniel to be very approachable and willing to coach and share technical info.
Good luck with your new setup. Remember, knowledge is power. The more input you get, the less likely hood of retracing steps.

[driske]

Further thought; What's the highest brix anyone here has been able to push out of a Mark 1?.
Second thought; Do we begin to lose maple character in our finished product when boiling time is shortened so dramatically? If so, at what brix has anyone noted this to occur?
Anecdotal evidence is good enough. Setting up a serious hard science experiment would be a challenge with so many variables to factor for.

These are some questions I hope to get answers for in our own operation this spring.

" We are all an experiment of one". Dr. George Sheehan

[PATheron]

Driske- Last year I had my dad recirc some stuff at the end of season and he misunderstood me or something and just let it keep looping and that got way up in the 20's I think. Theres been studies done I believe that pretty much claim that you cant tell any taste difference up to 15%. How exactly do you wash your 270's? Sounds like you want to do it a little different than the marks, maybe less soap. Theron

[maplwrks]

I 've boiled 25% sap---made 30 gallons in 1 hour. This is not the norm for me, I usually take it to 20% or so before boiling.

[Russell Lampron]

Driske, Dr Perkins can fill you in on the taste experiments that they did at Proctor. I don't know if they have done any test over 15%. What they had found at that level was that no one could tell the difference between the concentrated sap and raw sap finished product. I get up to around 14% wIth mine and notice no difference either.

Theron, You should be able to wash your NF 270 the same way that you wash your Mark 1's just use a ph meter or test strips and don't make the wash solution any stronger than what Dow recommends. The number for my NF 90 is ph 11.

[driske]

Russ,
Thanks for the info on Dr.Perkins work.
Time to get my head out of the sand, and pull even with real time again.
" Boiling soda" will resonate for a long time. Hah. LOL.

[DrTimPerkins]

Driske, Dr Perkins can fill you in on the taste experiments that they did at Proctor.

We compared sap concentrated to 15% then diluted back (with permeate) to 2%, 8%, 12% and 15% the first year, and then 8% vs 22% the second year. All sap was boiled in identical evaporators at the same time. In neither case could a taste panel of experienced sugarmakers, packers, regulators, and scientists distinguish the difference in flavor. We didn't find much in the way of chemical differences either. RO concentration did make slightly lighter syrup though.

Next season (2011) we will compare raw sap vs 8% vs 8% concentrate diluted back to raw sap concentration as a check on our work the first season. In short, it is likely the invert sugar level of the starting sap that pre-determines the eventual color and flavor profile of the syrup to a large degree.

[sapman]

Does anyone have experience with the Fluid Systems membranes, as far as proper cleaning ph? I'm told they are a very "tight" membrane (plugging before passing sugar). Where do you get a ph meter, or litmus papers work for this or something?

Thanks,
Tim

[caseyssugarshack93]

sapman here you go, pretty sure these will work http://cgi.ebay.com/HANNA-HI-98107-pHep-pH-Tester-Meter-Cheker_W0QQitemZ370200552735QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_ DefaultDomain_0?hash=item5631ac251f

[Russell Lampron]

Tim the meter that Nate posted a link to is similar to the one that I have. You can get litmus papers at most hardware stores and they work good as well. I used the test strips that came with my outdoor wood furnace to compare to my meter to see if it was accurate.

[sapman]

I ordered that meter last night. So do you start adding soap, circulate it, then check it and see if you need to add more? Any idea what kind of numbers I want on my Fluid System mem.? 802, or anybody?

Thanks,
Tim

[sapman]

I got the meter last night. The instructions say to use a certain chemical to calibrate the unit. But then there is a calibration certificate included, like they did it at the factory. Does anyone know if this thing is good to go, or does need calibrating?

Thanks,
Tim

[Mark]

If it were my membranes I would calibrate it.

[caseyssugarshack93]

I just bought this one http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250559115819&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWNX%3AIT Sapman , did the one i send u the link to come with the buffer solution?

[sapman]

No, it didn't. But I'm sure I can find the stuff with a little looking.

[caseyssugarshack93]

yes you can get it, i got mine with the meter but you can buy it seperate