Mass Packaged Off Flavor

[Brian Ryther]

One of my wife's co workers gave her maple syrup as a x-mas gift. Just for the heck of it I wanted to try it. I do not often get to taste other producers syrup so I put it on the table with breakfast today. It was "packed expressly for Harrington's of VT". It tasted like a blend of the bulk syrup from the end of the season and water. We will not be finishing the pint if any one wants it.

[PerryW]

The supermarket syrup often has off flavors because most producers sell the good stuff retail and sell the off-flavor syrup to the bulk buyers. This off-flavored syrup get blended in to the mix and sold to the supermarkets. That's why people should always buy direct from the producer.

[Squaredeal]

check out their web site. a quart plus shipping is $43.94!

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

All I can say, it sounds like we are all in the wrong business at those prices.

[OGDENS SUGAR BUSH]

All I can say, it sounds like we are all in the wrong business at those prices.

what is holding you back from the right business?

[Bucket Head]

A few years ago I was given a small bottle of syrup that came from a Cracker Barrel restaurant. It had a terrible flavor to it. I could'nt beleive they were serving that. It really was awful. I'm sure a few patrons had that stuff and thought they would never consider pure syrup again. That sort of thing gives us a bad reputation.

Steve

[markct]

A few years ago I was given a small bottle of syrup that came from a Cracker Barrel restaurant. It had a terrible flavor to it. I could'nt beleive they were serving that. It really was awful. I'm sure a few patrons had that stuff and thought they would never consider pure syrup again. That sort of thing gives us a bad reputation.

Steve

thats cause cracker barrel doesnt sell pure maple syrup, its a blend of other sugars and labeled with creative wording!

[Squaredeal]

They did until the price went way up in 2008. They pack those little babies really close to where I'm at.

[markct]

ahh ok, yea when we last were at cracker barrel i looked and it was something like 55 percent maple, the rest some other stuff

[dnap63]

i remember reading something about a year or so ago that they were no longer going to provide pure maple syrup. I actually have a bottle of their pure syrup someone gave me a couple of years ago, never had the courage to open it.

[markct]

yea as if they couldnt make the "country cooking" feel any more fake! cant even have real syrup go figure and realy how much can you save when its still
half real syrup?

[Russell Lampron]

The crap at Cracker Barrel is 55% of Maple Groves CANADIAN Mersh blended with 45% cane syrup. It probably taste as bad as there 55%, 45% candies.

[802maple]

As alot of you know I have cut my ties from Maple Grove for reasons that I don't need to go into here. I have very little respect for them, but I am willing to stand up for them and any other packer along the lines of crappy syrup in their bottles. Lets remember they didn't make it and they are pretty much forced to buy this crap that sugarmakers seem to want to keep making at the end of sugaring when they should have quit a week before. If they didn't buy this stuff they wouldn't get the better stuff from the producer either. I have over the years bought tens of thousands of drums of syrup and I can tell you many a time when a producer has refused me his good stuff when I didn't want the "mersh", so it got to be normal for us to buy it. Alot of people think that it goes into tabacco or something similar when the truth is there is too much of it being made for that product so it has to get used somewhere else. When sugarmakers think that all of the worst stuff comes from Canada, they need to look in the mirror because the worst syrup that I have seen in the mersh catergory usually comes from the US.

They can't wave a wand over it and make it into the most wonderful tasting syrup made.

[PerryW]

802maple,

I always sell my crappy syrup to the packers and keep the good stuff for my customers. It is simply an economic decision and I am not forcing them to buy my annual 10-20 gallons of the stuff. They set the price and the terms.

I have no control of what the packers do with my syrup after it is sold, but they have total control of whether it gets sold in the retail market. They are making their own economic decision to package off-flavor syrup, put their name on it and sell it on the retail market. If it is truly off-flavor, then these packers are not following the grading guidelines and should suffer the same consequences that I would if I sold off-flavor syrup.

[mapleman3]

Here is where your State Maple associations come into play Ladies and Gentleman. In Ma we had Trader Joes selling some syrup that was way of what the grading label stated.. we complained that for the price and what the quality of it was made Maple syrup look bad and wasn't helping the local producers... they took that bad batch off the shelves.You need to get your association aware of whats happening.. the labeling is what the consumer see's and if it's not clear that it's a blended product then they think thats how it is supposed to taste. force these packers to label correctly or even force the crap off the retail shelves. I see a few"Bulk" packers have been selling "Blended" maple candy on the retail shelves also... mixed with cane or corn syrup but still looking and packaged like regular pure maple candy. and you have to really read to notice the words blended.. some even still add the 100% to it.... 100%pure blended maple candy??? What is that???

Get out there and fight for your right!!

[bison1973]

PerryW I agree with you. I'm in Wisconsin and all of the syrup that I've ever had from the "packers" around here tastes very inferior to what I've ever made. I'll back up what you said... the packer is making the decision to buy the syrup and put an inferior product on the selves. And in turn giving the people who buy that syrup an poor inpression of what real maple is. Also, in most cases they charge way more for the syrup as well. Maybe they could pay us a better price if they want he good stuff.

[802maple]

I think if you look at the Cracker Barrel syrup it says Natural syrup not maple syrup. This all occurred after the 2008 season when Maple Grove could not even come close to getting the amount of Maple Syrup that was needed to fill the Cracker Barrel account, besides with Maple Grove paying 4 dollars a lb for all grades then, it was driving the price beyond what a consumer would pay. It would blow your mind to know how much syrup they sell a year to that one account alone which is more than what Vermont and New Hampshire makes altogether. Perry you are right about the fact that they have complete control over what happens to that syrup and without tasting your syrup it may not be as bad as what I am talking about. When you come to a producer that makes 2000 gallons or more, with 10 to 50 barrels of mersh, it does come into the bargaining process of that syrup of whether you are possibly going to get up to 300 barrels of good syrup, not all the time but more often than not. So then the packer blends one of those barrels into 39 other good barrels and prays that it comes out a useable product. It most generally comes out a syrup that is tolerable to maple standards but not to the maple producers standards due to fact that they have kept the very best and that is all they have to judge it by.

What has happened today compared to older sugarmakers is that a good share of todays crowd has got greedy and will make syrup as long as sap will come out of a tree. I guess with my roots deep into tradition like most of the old timers I know will not make one ounce of syrup that I am not willing to put my name on and be proud of it. Then you don't have to worry about whether a packer is putting bad syrup out there, because it was never made in the first place.

[Squaredeal]

There's only two places I know of around here that will buy crappy syrup to blend. They are willing to package it with their name and thus create a demand. 'Greedy' sugarmakers only continue to boil sap past it's prime because there is a market for the skanky syrup that results. They're not going to work any harder than they have to unless there is a good dollar to be made.
I myself can't even figure out how they even make that stuff. I don't take on more than I can boil in a day and am scrupulous about cleaning. As a result I haven't even made any 'B' for the last two years and last year I made medium up to the last day sap would run.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

This is where we need to get a bigger surplus so they start paying lower prices for the mersh and then they will quit producing as much of it as it is not profitable.

[3rdgen.maple]

I had to go back and edit this post I have some mixed feelings on it but markct makes a point. I say sell it all to Mrs.Buttersworth lol.

[markct]

so if we greedy sugarmakers are making this crap, why is the price up there enough to make it worthwhile? if this stuff was truely junk as you imply then the market for it would surely dry up fast, and the price would be next to nothing, or infact nothing. i was told at bascoms that it is used as a commercial sweetner in different cooking products and such, rather than blended with syrup usualy. so if this stuff is so useless and is just greed then why do they still pay a buck a pound or so for it? if ya dont want sugarmakers to make it dont pay for it plain and simple. i dont think the blame lays on any sugarmaker for making a product that has a market.

[KenWP]

Seems like some producers take pride in how much bad syrup they can make. We have all heard of guys who claim to make syrup almost up to the leaves coming out and hearing about how hard it is to keep in the pans. One guy was even bragging about finding a mouse in a barrel or container of syrup and pawning it off on a dealer.
We have to maybe start thinking on the lines that if we won't eat it why the hell would anybody else have to eat it. Also if the crap syrup disappered then the price of the good grades would rise a bit also.

[802maple]

MarkCT, you are right to a certain extent as it is used for sweetner in different food products, like salad dressing etc. etc. What you are missing here is it isn't as simple as not buying it. Once a sugarmaker has made it, especially some large sugarmakers they have a need to move it. For example I had a large sugarmaker that had a crop of nearly 150 drums and of that he had about 30 barrels of syrup that you could not even get by the smell not to say anything about the taste and I was told by him that if I did not take the "mersh" I wasn't going to get the good stuff. So what am I going to do walk away from 3600 gallons of some of the best syrup around, when we desperately needed it, because he had some crap or am I going to take the whole batch. We then have to figure out what to do with the other. well as said above we put some in salad dressing etc. etc, but in the end we still have some left, so what happens then, it sounds like the answer on here is to dump it. You know that isn't going to happen as we have 7 to 900 dollars invested in each barrel so it gets blended and hopefully the flavor gets masked enough so that it is a product that is tolerable. I will agree it isn't as good as what most sugarmakers are used to, so it gets a bad report.
What really gets me is when a sugarmaker like that then complains about the syrup that he or she had from XYZ packer when most likely the syrup that they made may have been a part of that flavor.
I am only speaking as sugarmaker that would not make syrup like that just to raise my syrup per tap average and I totally agree with what Kenwp said in the above post. So go ahead and tear me apart as this the last I have to say about it.

[Dave Y]

Producers,packers, and equipment manufactures all play a role in why commercial syrup is made. If equipment and supplies werent so **** expenisve, there would'nt be such a dersire to boil every drop of sap, but if the packer will buy it at a fair price then you should make it to help pay for the equipment that also makes the good syrup. It is a never ending cycle.

[markct]

802, i think the bottom line is if theres a market to sell it bulk so it will be made, dont buy it and it wont be made, and if you say someone else will buy it so ya have to, then i guess there is a market and some kind of use, or it would be worth just pennies a pound or less. if theres such an abundance of commercial syrup as you say that you have to blend it, why hasnt the price dropped like a stone? just some food for thought

[Mac_Muz]

This isn't any problem to me with just 35 pails out, but I wonder if the mersh< first time I ever saw that word, could be used in grains for cattle and horse, as they don't complain much about taste.

Only bad stuff I ever came by was from a store, but had been opened else where, and gifted to us, not stored cold for over a year maybe longer. That stuff went right down the drain.

So far I have never made any my wife and I were not delighted with, and i never will. There is a foggy look to the sap later in the season, and that tells me I am all done. I dump the buckets right there.

[KenWP]

Pretty high price for cow food. They feed molassas to cows to increase the gut bacteria and that's the only reason. The sugar is used up before a cow has any use for it in the lower stomachs.

[Mac_Muz]

Well I should have been quite since I don't know what mersh is.. When the sap gets cloudy I just dump my buckets.. I guess some guys keep on boiling, but I don't. This isn't for so much as earning a dime to me.

I still perfectly fine 08 stuff and 09 stuff, and am never with out for pancakes and what not. Just a little hobby guy is all I am.

[PerryW]

I sold 10 gallons of Commercial grade to a packer for something like $38 dollars a gallon at the peak of the price a couple year ago and I didn't even have to force them to buy it! It's worth it for me to boil Grade C if they are paying more than $20+per gallon. I'm all set up for sugaring and it's just some more slab wood burned.

[markcasper]

After reading these former posts, it makes me chuckle. Did anyone read Bruce Bascoms article froma year ago about "hanging on at the evaporator a bit longer"? Well I did and it seems to me that everyone has been pushed into making crappier syrup.

Not long ago, try 2005, Commercial was only .90 a pound. Alot of people just quit making it. You can;t make much at 9.90 a gallon. I do not know what happened, why Commercial skyrocketed in price, other than people wanting it. I have a specific ration to blend some of the mershiest mersch in with the B and people still keep wanting. I don't know why, other than I recommend it for the master cleanser b/c you could never pick it up with all the lemon juice, water, and cayenne pepper.

Does anyone know who sells BUSHES BAKED BEANS, Augusta, Wis there mersch? I recall last year in the year of baron syrup that they specifically wanted strong commercial and turned down anything better, they didn't want to have to put more higher grade stuff to get a wiff.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Reason commercial went from 90 cents a pound to $ 4 @ lb is because the entire enormous surplus was completely gone. The demand was so high for syrup it didn't matter what grade or quality. I agree that the biggest benefit of the CV adapters is going to be a lot more MERSH. Sometimes all this new technology isn't really so beneficial if it is used to make stuff that would make a dog gag. Tap in Jan and suck the trees dry round the clock for 3 months so the holes can't dry up so more MERSH can be made.

I know why it is done, it is to increase your profit margin and if I was in it full time to make a living, I would probably try to make as much syrup as I could and am not criticizing anyone for doing it. Hopefully we can get a big surplus built back up to where the graduated selling price of grades come back into play to encourage people to make more higher quality syrup and the higher the quality, the higher the price and see commercial at around 50% of the highest grade syrup.

[802maple]

Thank you Brandon, somebody gets it. Now I can stop pounding my head on the wall. LOL

[Brian Ryther]

I do not know the demand that mass packers see for the different grades but I feel that all syrup with good flavor should be the same price reguardless of color. As soon as there are off flavors then yes it shouldn't be worth as much unless there is a outside demand that is not seen from the table syrup producers.

[Clan Delaney]

To add to what Brandon said, I think the maple market just needs some more time to adjust. Producers will make mersh as long as it's profitable - agreed. The over-all production of off-flavored syrup will likely fall once the price paid for it drops.

Once the new grading standards go into place in 2013, they won't be able to sell any off-flavored syrup at retail (and still call it pure maple syrup). This will mean a restriction on their ability to move this kind of syrup - that means they'll want less of it on hand - which means they'll buy less of it - which means the price they pay for it will go down - which means fewer producers making it. Let's hope, anyway.

[DrTimPerkins]

..the biggest benefit of the CV adapters is going to be a lot more MERSH.

Rather unfair and unfounded statement given the experience so far. With the CV adapter last season we made good syrup until the very end.

The crap stuff is produced for a lot of reasons, more often due to producer error (or poor practice) than anything else. One "natural" reason sometimes is that the sap is running so poorly at the end of the season that there is a lot of heating in the pipeline, and therefore a lot of bacterial growth. The sugar content drops, so you end up with a high invert level and lower sugar content, so you need to RO and/or boil it more and you end up with a very strong-tasting very dark-colored syrup, often (but not always) with off-flavor.

What we found last season is that on the CV adapter system the sap ran great until the very end. It flushed all the crap out of the line each day (making filtering very important), so the sugar content stayed high and the invert level stayed low (bacteria consume the sugar to make invert sugar)....the result being that we made A-Med or A-Dark until the very end of the season....and we do NOT use air injection in our regular production. We didn't make any B or Commercial syrup last year.

I'm not saying this will happen every year, or even that the CV will do as well for everyone that it did for us this past season, but there is no evidence to suggest that the CV adapter will result in a higher proportion of poor syrup. The only evidence thus far suggests the very opposite.

The more nefarious and common off-flavors are things that don't involve technology at all. Metabolism, buddy, moldy, ferment, detergent, defoamer are FAR more common off-flavors. The whole "technology causes bad flavor" thing has not been proven....in fact the only controlled studies I know of have shown that there is no real basis for that at all.

[DrTimPerkins]

Once the new grading standards go into place in 2013, they won't be able to sell any off-flavored syrup at retail (and still call it pure maple syrup).

Hopefully you are correct and the implementation of the new grading standards will improve the situation somewhat. I'm not totally convinced that it will unless accompanied by strong inspection. Syrup that is sold now (retail) is not supposed to have off-flavors, but sometimes does.

The biggest problem in my opinion is that some (certainly not all) producers either A) don't taste their syrup, B) don't care what it tastes like, or C) can't tell the difference between good syrup and off-flavored syrup. It's also unfortunate that the demographic of most producers (middle-late aged, white males) is ranked quite high among the population with the poorest sense of taste.

As long as there is a market for lower end syrup, and the price is high enough to justify it, people will keep making it. Nobody complained about the price of the crap they made back when they were getting $4.00/lb for it.

[Brian Ryther]

[QUOTE=DrTimPerkins;97026] Syrup that is sold now is not supposed to have off-flavors, but sometimes does.

And now this post has gone full circle. I still have not had any takers for the off flavor mass packed syrup that was given to me. Maybe I will dump it into a late season drum and "blend it."

[Clan Delaney]

Hopefully you are correct and the implementation of the new grading standards will improve the situation somewhat. I'm not totally convinced that it will unless accompanied by strong inspection. Syrup that is sold now (retail) is not supposed to have off-flavors, but sometimes does.

That brings up an aspect of the new standards that I haven't yet heard discussed, nor have I read about - enforcement. Inspection is only one part. I have heard that NAMSC and IMSI have been working with the USDA regarding these new standards. The enforcement issue would explain that.

[wildacres]

Thanks Dr. Tim for your well articulated insights. It makes sense that technology inside the sugar house should certainly have the effect of reducing the variables in the process, and thus lead to a more consistent product. I have a question about RO and invert sugars, and your observation about the two. I guess I don't really understand what invert sugars are, though I understand a certain percentage of such are needed for some kinds of maple products (or is it that you can't have too many and still make some of these?). Is the invert sugar molecule substantially different than the sucrose molecule? And based on your remarks, can you generally associate syrup color with invert sugar percentages?

I can hardly wait for the season to get goin' so I can start applying some of the useful pointers I picked up at the sugaring symposium put on by the VT Maple Syrup Producer's Assn in January!

Also - what the heck is mersh, anyway?

Paul L.

[KenWP]

Mersh is syrup made after the trees bud or with sap that has turned do to long storage. When the trees start to bud it puts a taste and smell into the syrup and it becomes hard to handle when boiled hard. I am useing up a gallon of syrup I made last year that was marked cooking only and it isn't to bad but leaves a funny taste in your mouth. Some is supposed to taste like 3rgens socks boiled in water or maybe worse.

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Dr. Perkins,

I was not attacking you in any way and didn't mean to come across that way. I appreciate all you have done and all you will continue to do for the industry and apologize for coming across the wrong way. Point I was trying to make is that it appears these adapters are going to extend the season even more. It is extended a ton already with these high levels of vacuum and my thought is that there is going to be even more MERSH produced by the guys that are using the adapters over what they would have produced having not using them. Maybe I am wrong and I hope I am. It gets kinda humorous after April rolls around and when people are complaining about the sap being so bad they can't even keep it in the evaporator regardless of what they do.

[Clan Delaney]

Also - what the heck is mersh, anyway?


According the the prevailing definition on urbandictionary.com (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=mersh), mersh is a term for sub-standard marijuana. Around here it's oddly made the transition to become a term for sub-standard maple syrup.

I'll admit to not having seen or heard the term here until a few weeks ago, but it's been around since last April (mersh season, apparently :lol:).

[Clan Delaney]

It gets kinda humorous after April rolls around and when people are complaining about the sap being so bad they can't even keep it in the evaporator regardless of what they do.

This is gonna sound like a stupid question, but I'm being perfectly serious, so bear with me... why would you have trouble keeping bad sap in the evaporator? And now for the non-serious part... is it trying to crawl out of the pan because it knows it's gonna be made into horrible syrup? :D

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

Just wait about 7 to 8 more weeks and you will get it fully described to you. LOL!

[DrTimPerkins]

I guess I don't really understand what invert sugars are, though I understand a certain percentage of such are needed for some kinds of maple products (or is it that you can't have too many and still make some of these?). Is the invert sugar molecule substantially different than the sucrose molecule? And based on your remarks, can you generally associate syrup color with invert sugar percentages?


Maple trees produce primarily sucrose, a 12-carbon sugar (large). When you heat sucrose in solution, it doesn't turn caramelize (= turn brown and form flavor molecules) very much because the activation energy is substantially higher than 219 deg F (syrup temperature).

When microbes feed upon sugar, they do so by breaking the chemical bond in the compound (hydrolysis), thereby releasing some of the energy (which they use). When they do this, the result is two 6-carbon sugars, glucose (also called dextrose) and fructose, which are called "invert" sugars. Both fructose and especially glucose have far lower activation energies, but both below the temperature of syrup. That means when you heat them in solution, they caramelize -- in other words, they turn color (brown) and develop robust flavor molecules.

The term "invert" is derived from one way in which the nature of sugar solutions are measured. When you pass polarized light through sucrose it is rotated in one direction (everybody knows that light is bent by passing through water....sugar solutions bend it in a particular way). As the composition changes to a higher invert level, the direction of the bend is altered to the opposite direction, or "inverted", hence the term "invert" sugar.

In syrup that has not been made with air-injection, just after it is made, the color (light transmittance) is generally quite related to the invert level. After a period of time in storage, the invert level can change, or the color can change, and the relationship breaks down.

Air injection works (at least in part) by reducing the temperature of the boiling liquid below the temperature at which the invert sugars caramelize. Thus even if the invert level is fairly high, the syrup will never reach the critical activation energy temperature, thus no browning or strong flavor development.

If the invert level is too high, you can't make candy or cream with it because the crystallization properties of very different (basically they don't crystallize very well, so the candy doesn't ever harden).

Dr. Abby van den Berg and I wrote a chapter about maple sap and syrup chemistry for a food book about a year ago. Everything you NEVER wanted to know about the chemistry of maple. Unfortunately also published in a book that no sugarmakers will likely ever read. We aren't allowed to give out copies....you need to buy the book (sorry).

[Bucket Head]

Dr.,

What is the book that has this info in it? Why stop now with stuff we never wanted to learn about, lol!

Seriously, thanks for the info in the last post. I always knew bacteria was the cause of dark/poor/carmelization syrup, I just never knew the exact change that was going on in the sap. I did not know that the sugar actually changes to another form.

All kidding aside about the "never wanted" stuff, this explanation will go over better with folks when explaining what buddy sap is and why dark syrup happens. It sounds better than "we have more bacteria in our sap than last week". A "naturally occuring, seasonal change of the sap" is easier for most consumers to understand.

Steve

[KenWP]

Patrick for one thing if you try and boil thick stuff hard it bubbles and spits and bubbles over real bad becasue the air can't escape it fast enough. So when boiling ropey sap and such it is hard to keep it from boiling over and coming out of the pan.
I would guess if you greased the edges of the pain real well it would keep it from clutching the sides and pulling it's self over.

[DrTimPerkins]

What is the book that has this info in it? Why stop now with stuff we never wanted to learn about, lol!

Oh you are funny......

The full citation is:

Perkins, T.D. and A.K. van den Berg. 2009. Maple Syrup – Production, Composition, Chemistry, and Sensory Characteristics. pp. 102-144. In: S.L. Taylor (Ed.) Advances in Food and Nutrition Research. Volume 56. Elsevier, New York.

Unfortunately it'll cost you about $150.00 from Barnes & Noble. The other choice would be to go to a well-equipped College or University Library and photocopy those 42 pages. As I said, we aren't allowed to provide electronic copies to people....the publisher wants to sell books.

Much of the same chemistry info (not quite as in depth) is contained in the North American Maple Producers Manual. I'd suggest getting that first....and then only if you're a real masochist, find the book.

[KenWP]

Isn't it so much fun to buy educational material. I had to buy one text book this year and that was enough.

[Clan Delaney]

Dr. Perkins, I think you just answered every maple sugaring question I've ever had.

Things like...

Why can't I just use Grade B for candy making?

Why is it called "invert" sugar. (Ah, polarization. Takes me back to that, well, one semester of optical minerology.)

Why does syrup get darker as the season moves along?


This season, I'm not just gonna boil sap, I'm gonna do science to it. :lol:


And for those of you interested in that book, here's the ISBN: 9780123744395. Sorry, looks like even a used copy on Amazon will run you about $156 right now.