at what point is sugaring profitable?

[woodsmith]

here's my burning question....presuming we sold all the syrup we produce, at what level (how many taps, etc) would sugaring be profitable? I currently do this for a hobby only, but would like to explore expanding and possibly making a few bucks. thanks

[backyardsugarer]

Depends on your overhead and how much you spend on equipment. You can make money if you make 10 gallons of syrup using scrap wood from the yard and boiling on a flat pan. I worked with a guy that made 300 gallons or more a year but he never made any $ because he did not know how to run a business, market syrup or contain costs. I guess you could start to make some decent money at 100 gallons or so which would have a retail value of about $6,000. Minus your expenses and you could make a few thousand per year. The key is owning the trees or having a reasonable long term lease.

Chris

[Riverdale]

I'd say it depends on how much your time is worth to you and how fast you can get your raw sap to the final product. Made 140 gal. last year, sold the majority of it. If I figured out how many hours were spent in the woods and saphouse by my grandfather, dad and myself, and divided that into our net income, discouraging numbers would result!
If it's in your blood though, it doesn't matter!

[PerryW]

My size operation (see below) makes 120 gallons or about $5400 per year in retail gross receipts.

My initial investment 20 years ago was about $10,000, which has long since been paid off.

My expenses run about $1500 per year (not including labor). That's just under $4000 profit.

[michelle32]

I would say time is the biggest factor. But if you love what you are doing time is not a factor. With are set up if we make say 100 gallons this year and still have time after each boil. Next year double the size of tap count. We will be making a small amount of money. I beleave if you can control the amount you spend to what you make with maybe a small loan from your own pocket ( tobe paid back as a loan). That with in 4 years of start up. You may be able to make a profit MAYBE. Again your time is not included in this. This is with my size operation. If you go bigger maybe less time not sure. Keith

[KenWP]

I really am trying to get even. I could probbably make a little bit with more effort and promotion but that would require more then I planned to put in it. I run on a sort of tight budget right now and of course just getting started you have to buy or make everything and make mistakes along the way. My biggest problem is the stupid language and finding people that will actually help you get a problem fixed.

[Dave Y]

I know everyone says your time is worth something and no doubt it is. We are being paid for the time we spend in our day jobs. I look at it this way any profit i make is my pay for the time I spent. I love doing this so it is not a job. I have spent the last seven years building this business with no start up capital. Just the eagerness to make syrup. I currently have spent upwards of $75,000 in the last seven years with all of my maple proceeds going back into my business. I will have 3400 taps this year. I have bought a brand new evaporator, a vacuum pump,sap extractor, Built onto my sugar house, added electric to my bush and bought 3tanks. all this year plus added 400 more tubing taps. My plan is to get to 10,000 taps. then I can make a living makin syrup and my retirement check will be my profit. And you guys think Theron is the only one with a plan:)

[Revi]

We have 300 taps on our own land and everything is paid off. We still didn't make a profit last year because of vandalism. I think without that we might have made a small profit. We do it mostly for fun. It pays for itself anyway.

We haven't had any out of pocket expenses for a couple of years.

We bought a bigger evaporator with logging proceeds and got about 5 years of firewood.

There are a lot of benefits besides those that are monetary.

It's a small farm that works for us, since we get wood to heat our houses, maple syrup and recreation.

Some day it may even make money too.

[Jim Brown]

A forth gen syrup maker always told me "there's no money in maple syrup" But he drives a new truck,has a very nice home,new evaporator,new JD tractor w/ high lift.And all the other things needed to make quality syrup!
Go figure!!

JIM

[wcproctor]

The best way to make MONEY is to put a extra trash barrel in the sugar house so when all you friends come over they don't throw away the (beer) cans you can return them. I make a lot of $ with mine I have thrust friends:lol:

[red maples]

depends on what you have not just number of taps. You could have 2000 taps and a 2x6 granted you have an RO, a steamaway, blower, is it gravity, buckets, tubing, vacuum, high vacuum don't forget tanks and storage of sap/syrup. and what type of business do you want to have. what are your risks? Don't forget insurance, product liability, farm insurance, and umbrella insurance.

Bottom line is if you have the money to begin with it will get better over time but it may take several years to get back your investment.

this year for me the investment is around $10,000. and next year HOPEFULLY only $2000.00. what will I make this year? I am hoping I can sell $4000.00 worth of syrup but who knows and I still need stuff for the following year too. the good thing for me is I borowed money from myself not the bank. So I don't have to worry about interest and a loan. I am just going to pay our account back as much as I can probably like 1/2.

There are alot of variables. and definitly more money to spend if you go by the book!!!!

[MaplePancakeMan]

The thing about maple syrup is that at the very least even if you sell some of it a maple syrup hobby somewhat pays for it self a little. Which is more then one can say about most hobbies.


I never pay for wood and 5 years later my evaporator is paid off, i don't have a lot of taps but i do my best.

Now with the sugar house that was just built... thats another story if i live long enough to pay that off i'll be happy haha.(but that adds value to the property so its kinda a wash) Someone down the road will inherit something that they could make a little bit of side money pretty easily but it will have taken my hard work to do so.

[Beans Maple]

Okay, here's my wisdom on making money sugaring....follow these steps....
First, marry a woman who already has a high paying job that covers health insurance and utilities. Make sure she has really rich parents and convince them that it is your intention to have many children and that you want to be a stay at home dad so you can spend as much time as possible with your family. Once they have fallen in love with you, you should have no problems getting them to pay for many of your upcoming expenses. Find a remote piece of property that has thousands of maples all on a gently sloped southern exposure. Once "mom and dad" buy the land for you then you can get them to make just one last investment....a whole new sugaring set up. Big evaporator, R.O., Steamaway, vacuum pumps, sugarhouse, all stainless tanks, and a few pumps. Take some of your wifes money and buy the pipeline set-up. Then....don't have kids, eliminate your social life, keep your wife working lots of hours, and have a kegerator with cheap beer installed in the sugarhouse. From this point on if you can manage enough ambition to collect and boil sap with the system someone else bought, you should be profitable.

Of course you should know that I followed none of these steps. I married a beautiful poor woman and are raising 3 kids. Paying for everything as we go on a shoe string and the in laws probably hate me. I think I made about a buck fifty last year on 600 gallons. That's why I know the above method must work. I do drink cheap beer though.

[Acer]

"At what point is sugaring become profitable?"

When your receipts surpasses your expenses:lol: :lol:

[WESTVIRGINIAMAPLER]

A forth gen syrup maker always told me "there's no money in maple syrup" But he drives a new truck,has a very nice home,new evaporator,new JD tractor w/ high lift.And all the other things needed to make quality syrup!
Go figure!!

JIM

Probably because he is writing off everything listed above as maple syrup expense other than house, so all is profit is paying for all the cost of his new toys. LOL!

I can't say much, I bought a new tractor and it was for maple syrup only as my dad moved and took his, so yes, I would be making a profit if I weren't depreciating tractor, evaporator and other the many items out over 10 years. Guess I could echo him, no money in syrup for me either but hope to show a profit for this coming year with another 100 taps on board.

[red maples]

some of that yes!!!! my parents are lower middle class bordering red neck ah definitly red neck.,her parents are lower middle bordering red reck well her father definitly is. and you worked you worked your butt off through school and work at the same time. and you knew your wife before she had the high paying job and supported her through med school and paid for some of it. Well the result stay at home dad 2 kids paid for everything our selves though. But I do lots to save money and am a red neck at heart!!! The bad part is have to cook and clean but I don't don't really care for cheap beer. but I will drink bud light or old milwalkee, some time even a pabst blue ribbon, but meisterbrau is where I have to draw the line.


Okay, here's my wisdom on making money sugaring....follow these steps....
First, marry a woman who already has a high paying job that covers health insurance and utilities. Make sure she has really rich parents and convince them that it is your intention to have many children and that you want to be a stay at home dad so you can spend as much time as possible with your family. Once they have fallen in love with you, you should have no problems getting them to pay for many of your upcoming expenses. Find a remote piece of property that has thousands of maples all on a gently sloped southern exposure. Once "mom and dad" buy the land for you then you can get them to make just one last investment....a whole new sugaring set up. Big evaporator, R.O., Steamaway, vacuum pumps, sugarhouse, all stainless tanks, and a few pumps. Take some of your wifes money and buy the pipeline set-up. Then....don't have kids, eliminate your social life, keep your wife working lots of hours, and have a kegerator with cheap beer installed in the sugarhouse. From this point on if you can manage enough ambition to collect and boil sap with the system someone else bought, you should be profitable.

Of course you should know that I followed none of these steps. I married a beautiful poor woman and are raising 3 kids. Paying for everything as we go on a shoe string and the in laws probably hate me. I think I made about a buck fifty last year on 600 gallons. That's why I know the above method must work. I do drink cheap beer though.

[Haynes Forest Products]

I own the land and would own it if i didnt do maple.so now I do maple on it and the land becomes an expence YIKES:cry: I look at it this way If you have a big fancy bass boat and after having fun fishing for 5 years and one day you catch a BOAT LOAD of fish and sell them DID YOU MAKE MONEY? Now you start making maple on your property and start selling it and then some wise *** says but are you paying for the property your using.

whatever I sell and help cover costs is money I would have lost anyway.

[Big_Eddy]

I tap 100 trees, make 90 litres of syrup and make a profit every year.

I buy 200 500ml bottles at about $3/bottle including caps, and I usually put another $100 into upgrades or misc repair expenses. Total annual costs $700.

My time is free. My wood is free. I need to use one to get the other. My helpers are free (I have to feed them every day anyway)

At the end of the season I sell about 40 litres of syrup, at $10/bottle or $20 a litre. Total receipts $800

Annual profit ~$100
Plus I get 100+ hours of enjoyment, and end up with 30 litres of syrup for the family, and 20 litres to give away as hostess gifts etc.

Could I live on that? Not a chance. Would I give it up? Not a chance.

[red maples]

you said it. I think was "backyard sugarin" by rick mann and he said something along the lines of. there is no pressure, no pre orders to fill no people waiting for syrup, just the enjoyment being out side with nature and having fun.

My wife has an art thing on the side while she was setting her stuff up for shows and stuff she complained about the money and I said are you having fun and she said yeah. So now I am spending money on the maple stuff and complaining about spending money and she said are you having fun I said yeah she said ok then!!!!

[Woodland Acres]

You need to remember is your equipment is going to hold its value,such as the 500 gallon tank i got for 200$ , buckets 1.25 each worth about 3 now .If you run it as a business there is always tax write offs.Invest slowly as you start to expand ,because as we all know mother nature can make or break you .

[Bucket Head]

This thread has been interesting. I've enjoyed reading about everybodys set-up's, situations and reasons for making syrup. I've thought long and hard recently about wether to "forge ahead" and make my operation a full blown business or just keep going with what it is now- a very enjoyable hobby that turns a reasonable profit.

My fondness for sugaring, ability to weld, ingenuity, many nearby tree's, free wood, and upgrading when I could as I went along, has allowed me to build up what a lot of folks have called a pretty elaborate backyard operation. Necessities like evaporator modifications came first, and then to recent niceties like a canner and auto-drawoff, I'm happy with what I have. Its all paid for- I've reinvested most of what I've made, leaving a little "surplus" for whatever I see fit.

The only thing missing from what I would call a professional maple operation is a sugarhouse. A lot of soul searching has to go into a decision like that. That would be a huge investment. A lot of questions come up- do I want to pay on a loan for it, how much should I consider spending on a sugarhouse, do I even want to build it at this location, would I or would'nt I be happy going to the next "level", etc., etc., etc. You can lay awake at night thinking about this stuff.

My operation now is profitable and I know I could make the next "level" profitable in time. I have to try and figure out which degree of profitability will I be happy with? I think thats what everyone here is either struggling with or has struggled with in the past, and everyone's answer is different due to circumstances.

I'll keep pondering the sugarhouse for now...

Steve

[MapleChaser]

My thoughts are everybody needs a hobby. Some hobbys make money others do not. As long as it stays a hobby and does not become work it stays fun. I to have thought of trying to make it a full time job. Right now I enjoy working the woods and the sugar house. Also toying with the Idea of buying a tractor and farmi winch just to make playing in the woods more fun. My first hobby for 22 years was racing stock cars and it was fun but by no means did I make a profit doing that compared to what sugaring does. Just my two cents worth. MC

[mountainvan]

Here's my advice, make sure you either make a lot of syrup to sell bulk or sell it all yourself retail. Keep away from wholesaling, supplies cost the same but lower return on each bottle. Have patience, it may take a couple years for you to make a profit. Be great with all your customers. Don't belittle the competition, customers like happy farmers..Keep the "toys" to a minimum. Buy what you need to make good syrup and that's it. Do you need the 4 wheeler or can you walk the woods, walking is cheaper and healthier. Stand your ground if need be, maple is a competitive industry. Lastly, expect to work harder than 95% of the people on the earth, but enjoy your job more than 95% also. My two cents.

[mitchmaple]

hey all, sugaring gets you out of the house at the best time, keeps you busy, and when you pick your head up for a breath in april, the snow is gone and the grass is starting. the birds are back and you just lost six weeks of winter. some folks pay lots of money going to florida just to do the same thing. and if your lucky, you have enough cash to buy seed and fertilizer to lose more money farming. you can't have this much fun at a carnival.

[maple flats]

I'm beginning to think you start making a profit when you stop growing and get everything paid for. Now, mind you paid for to me is when I pay myself back for everything I bought. I have never borrowed from any instatution for mapling except for a month or 2 leading up to any season using my credit card and paying off during the season. I limit that too. Thinking about it, making money at maple might be the same as any other farming, when you retire or die and everything is sold off.
Maple is just in our blood and way too enjoyable to worry about making money. Think of it, you don't need to pay a health club dues for a stair climber, just walk your lines. No sleep doctor bills, just go to bed when you can't stay awake anymore. You don't need to buy a vacation home with all of the relates expenses, because you don't have time nor do you feel a need to get away from everything, just work in the sugarhouse or in the woods. All of your worries evaporate (pun intended)

[C.Wilcox]

This morning I stopped in at a neighbor's place to have him plane some lumber for me and when we were done I asked him about his sugaring operation just to see what I could learn and he was more than happy to show me his set up. He has three different "evaporators" which are all basic flat pans set up on very crude firebox's. He welded them all up himself out of whatever he could find. The pans are mostly leftover stainless steel industrial sinks that he got for free from various locations and the firebox's are whatever scrap steel he could find. Truly nothing fancy about it although he is a very talented welder. The pans are wavy-bottomed, the draw-off valves are simple pipe fittings, there's no forced-draft, no over the fire air, no firebrick, no sugarhouse. Pre-heat is done by setting pans of sap on sections of the firebox behind the pans and there's no sugarhouse, just tin roofing strapped on over the pans. Truly a backyard operation. I asked him how much he made every year and he told me 90 gallons. I couldn't believe it. Looking at that setup I was shocked that he could produce 90 gallons of syrup, but what really floored me was that he then told me that he sold every bit of it and wished he could make more. Seeing as how he has only a couple of dollars invested in each of his three evaporators nearly every penny of those 90 gallons of syrup is profit. Even if he sold at $12 a quart, he's likely to have made about $4000+. Granted, he's retired and has a lot more time on his hands than many so a flat pan works for him despite it's slow evaporation rate, but I think it's safe to say that in his case, it's pretty profitable. Overall, it was an interesting conversation and a bit of an eye-opener as to what a person really needs for a backyard operation and how it can be profitable just the same.

[red maples]

My thoughts are everybody needs a hobby. Some hobbys make money others do not. As long as it stays a hobby and does not become work it stays fun. I to have thought of trying to make it a full time job. Right now I enjoy working the woods and the sugar house. Also toying with the Idea of buying a tractor and farmi winch just to make playing in the woods more fun. My first hobby for 22 years was racing stock cars and it was fun but by no means did I make a profit doing that compared to what sugaring does. Just my two cents worth. MC

I like this one. the problem is I have too many hobbies and when a new one becomes a front runner(right now maple) the other go to the back burner.

BEFORE I HAD KIDS!!!! crazy term but anyway. there was hunting, bass fishing, fly fishing, ice fishing, striper fishing,bird, duck, deer, rabbit,squirrel hunting, Golf, Softball played in 2 leagues arch pitch and fast pitch. anyway did alot of stuff.

then things changed...had kids, bought a house, man those 2 things will set you back wow. Now things on the house are going good still projects but its getting there. and kids are now 4 and 7 so that gives you just enough time to get back into things a little and what do I do !!!!!@#$@#$ maple syrup!!!!

[KenWP]

I know that people would laugh at my evaporator also. It's made up or SS sinks and a barrel and lots of scrap angle iron. I wouldn't bother if I had to buy a real evaporator and such. I made 20 gallons with a 16inch by 18inch pan last year. I was pretty well wasted boiling from 7 in the morning to sometimes 3 the next morning but I got it all done. Was actually sorry to see the trees dry up as I would have continued boiling if the trees kept producing.
I can only boil at night and weekends this year so I had to improve a bit to speed things up and find more storage as I was looking a empty rubber boots last season. Around here anything is hard to come by and you can't ask anybody for info so I have to make do with what I can find on my own.

[40to1]

This is a great thread. Very interesting....
Before I started sugaring, I bought a gallon or so of syrup every year from a sugar house. I couldn't imagine how they didn't turn a profit...
Now that I've tried it, I can't imagine how they do it at all.

The curve ball in all this is that the season is only (about) five weeks long. Seeing some of the $$ numbers people are posting, for some it COULD annualize out to a living wage. But the season is so short I think the best way to think about the money is as a moderately profitable short term, seasonal work. Kind of like working retail during the Christmas season.

Of course, sugaring is a lot more fun than retail work.

[Bucket Head]

Once the sap starts running, it is like Christmas! I look forward to the first sap like I looked forward to X-mas as a kid!!

Steve

[Sugarmaker]

Could the answer to this question ( jokingly ) be that when you help someone else make syrup for several hours and they give you a gallon of syrup?:) Thats when syrup making is profitable!

No really lots of good posts here! I was lucky to a some wind fall that allowed me to build a sugarhouse and get it modestly equipped.
I have, like others had several previous hobbies that were money pits. Horses, Antique cars.
Maple allows me to fund the hobby and puts some gas in the tanks. Could we live off the profits no not at this time. But it could be a nice supplement.

Regards,
Chris

[Cabinet man]

Hi all, great posts!

We look at it as a hobby that hopefully will recoup the annual costs of operation. We burn propane for cooking and finishing, so lp costs and bottling are the biggest issues. I have heavily modified the pan this year for performance and efficiency, but we will see when the steam flies. I haven't seen anyone try this so should be interesting.

Sugaring is mainly a family and friend get together and spring fever outlet for us. I built most of our equipment and only buy sugaring stuff if there is an exceptional deal, or as or pocket book permits. I keep my eyes open and an open mind all the time so I can jump on the great deals out there. The initial purchase price is considered, but, my main concern is to cover expenses. We have enough equipment and storage to handle 500 +taps and have around $1200 total in the operation. We run old coffee cans, a few actual buckets, and several containers that have been used by makers in the area for about 100 years.

We also take into account the amount of time to cut and split labor versus the cost of LP. I have cabinetmaking business that occupies my time and I barely have enough time to keep up with my woodstove. So the labor saved is something that weighs in on our operating costs. If I had to do the woodcutting thing for sugar we probably would not be able to do it.

[3rdgen.maple]

When you stop spending money. I take no out of pocket expenses to add to the insanity. I keep what profits are made and expand every year with what I earned making syrup. So every penny goes back into it. All for a some extra retirement money when the time arrives. If I quit spending money now I would expect a 5000 dollar a year paycheck after exspenses of jugs and misc. items. When I get to the 320 gallon a year mark I think the big purchases will be over and then I can make some retirement vacation money. You know like flyfishing in Montana:D

[Bucket Head]

I've had some expensive hobbies too. I still have one that I won't give up though. You have to have something to tinker with in the off season. Thats why the "tongue in cheek" name of this place here is called The Model T & Maple Tree Farm.

I've dabbled in lots of dirtbikes, snowmobiles, wheelers, go-carts, motorcycles and a couple of Ford Torino's. I still have one wheeler and motorcycle. Those were all what I call now self-centered toys.

I've narrowed it down to two hobbies that many people get to enjoy. The old cars are liked by everybody. From shows, to parades, to giving rides, they put a smile on many faces, not just mine. Maple syrup is the same way. Almost everyone likes syrup. Most are interested in how a tree is tapped. Kids like to look in the buckets and gather sap. Many folks around here look forward to maple season and stop in for a visit. Even in the off season, maple becomes the topic of discussion. Even the woodsplitter is interesting to people who have never seen one or seen one work!

I enjoy both hobbies, and both are worthwhile. The cars don't depreciate, but the maple turns a decent profit each year. And with good planning, it could turn a better profit. If I spend any significant amount of money for anything in the future, it will be maple related.

Steve

[red maples]

The curve ball in all this is that the season is only (about) five weeks long.

its might be 5 weeks long but it may take you the rest of the year to sell it. and thats fun too!!!

[3rdgen.maple]

The gathering and boiling part may be 5 weeks long but the whole operaton is a few weeks longer than 52.

[farmall h]

There has to be $ in it for the larger producers..why else would you tap over 10,000 and hire help. I know of folks that tap 6-8000 and are quite profitable after a couple years into there investment. Then again, it may only look that way on the surface.
I do it 'cause I like it and make a little cash as well invest it back in the operation.

[brookledge]

The problem I have is just when I get some profits I put it back into it to get bigger and better. over the years I have upgraded based on the industry trends. Like in 2002 I spent alot to buy a new bigger evaporator, but I also did it because my other pans were lead soldered from 1986. Now I'm thinking about replacing my arch and vac pumps not because they are broken or worn out but because the industry standards change. The new high efficiency arches and liquid ring pumps for example are the reasons I seem to never really make a profit.
I guess if you are at a point where you are making money and happy where you are then you can make some money. But I can't do that.
Keith

[farmall h]

Brookledge, how many taps you working on?

[brookledge]

Farmall
1150 taps now. looking to add a few more but it won't happen this year. I'd like to get around 1600
keith

[farmall h]

I have canned probably a good 1/3 of my syrup over the years but am getting tired of sitting on it so from now on I will can probably 15 gal. and bulk the rest. Get the check and run if you know what I mean. Less expense on cans/jugs. As long as it is self supportive your doing alright. I don't have an RO, no hoods, no oil, still pretty much the same as when I started, just bigger arch and pans (1990).

[woodsmith]

I agree that we deal with this obsession for the love of sugaring and being in the woods, etc, and I hope that never changes because it is absolutely the best therapy I can think of for cabin fever!! Only a couple more weeks and away we go!

[red maples]

I was thinking about this one the other day when I was splitting wood kinda of a mindless job. And reading through some of the threads. And the meaning of "profit" and not just the monitary sence of the word. the enjoyment of getting outside(although cold now) being out in nature, excersize, fun, bringing people together(and random people show up if they see steam)!!! hanging out with the kids in the sugarhouse and the enjoyment of it all...I think the money is second here. As my wife says some times the jouney is the destination.

[Hop Kiln Road]

I also think the intangibles are the most important, however I'm a capitalist. So this is how I look at it: Raw Material X Production X Sales = Profit

Playing with my equation, sap X steam X sales, I find the sales are the most important variable. If you can sell syrup for a high price, then whether it costs $20 or $60 gal to produce isn't as important. Next is raw material quality, the % of sugar in the sap. If you are gathering 4% sap, how it is boiled isn't as important. Of least importance to profit is how you boil the sap and unfortunately where most spend their capital... shiny equipment that sits idle 95% of the year.

So if you are gather 3.5% sap and sell syrup for $85 a gal you can then decide how much capital to invest in steam production by projecting your gal/hr of evaporation need.

Small producers can make money with a careful marketing plan and investing in their trees.

Bruce

[muddyfootprints]

This has been a very interesting thread to see others thoughts of why they are doing this. I know the first year I did this was for my Daughter, 5 at the time. what she got out of it and what I did, was memories that will last a life time.
My second year I got my son out there 3 1/2 he was more interested in hitting sticks on trees but it gave him and myself a lot of enjoyment. We had more friends and family show up and it was great fun for everyone. Almost everyone wanted to do something, some of the most fun was watching people try to split wood. Everything was outside,it was hard work, the nights went long, and the beer stayed cold until it was consumed, but the real reward / profit was the time with friends and family.

this year will be a bit different, cooking inside and spent a bunch more money of course. but hope to have more friends and family over, if I can sell some syrup and cover some cost great if not oh well. For me its about the adventure. I don't want it to become something that I have to feel like I have to make money at, there is too may variables and that would just ad stress to what I want to be fun for me and my family and friends.

[Ridgeland Farm]

Ive been putting a lot of thought into making maple a career for myself. I did follow one of the steps listed earlier in the tread though! I married a beautifull girl who in a year will have a very good paying job in the medical field! So the health insurance will be all set too! So this does make things a little easier for me. It all depends on how far you want to take it and if you have the resources to take it that far. as far as making a profit I think there are to many varriables to put any type of statisticle chart out there! Like some one else said... do you buy all the fancy stuff every year or do you buy only what you need to. The number of taps you have does play a factor to some extent. But again it can come down to how much did you have to pay to get to that number of taps? lets take 2 setups that both have 200 taps with all identicle taps fittings vac. levels ect. however setup 1 could get all 200 taps on 1 mainline 800ft long but the setup 2 was more spaced out and took 3 mainlines 600ft long. even if they produced the same amount of sap setup 1 will pay off and turn a profit faster. I know its simple and pretty obviouse but it can be easy to overlook. and thats only half of it. setup 2 could produce more finished product because it had more sugar maples so the sap was sweeter, or maybe the sun exposure was better on one setup than the other. there are so many things to take into consideration. It can drive you crazy thinking about it all! Another part is how much time do you spend in the woods durring the season? this is especially important for those who run vacuum. an air tight system is so important to produce higher sap yields. I help a producer that makes 1/3 gallon of syrup per tree on more than 65% soft maples. and if you ask him what the biggest factor is he will tell you ...... checking for leaks. I am no pro at this by any means. my screen name says it all! But we can learn so much about what to do and what not to do from other producers. Most of them have no problem sharing how they run thier operation. Thier past mistakes that they have corrected along with all the new research that is going on by UVM and others is making it more and more attainable to turn a profite in this industry! sorry for the long post!

[KenWP]

I will have to say that just makeing syrup is a adventure. If I cam make a couple bucks to cover costs and have lots for myself so be it. I love feeding wood to the fire and such. The long hours when I get cold suck. If I can get inside some day it will be nice and then I can read warm while boiling.
This year I am hopefully going to be quicker and shorten boil times. I have not idea what even break even would be anymore. Just going to try my best and have fun. I never have company most nights unless you count the wild cats but as long as I have something to read I do okay. Would take a lot of work to make any money on this profect me thinks.

[ebourassa]

I made a promise to myself (aka my wife) that i would no longer put my own money into this, but everything i sell i get to use to buy new equipment for making syrup, i took last years proceeds and bouht a new preheater and hood, and some supplies, so the more syrup i can make the more stuff i can buy, I try to look at it as a self supporting hobby now, i know to me if i was to make money personally you kind lose the hobby feeling and it turns more into work and i dont want that, i enjoy doing this and if I counted on it for income it would take the fun out of it for me. no pun inteded!!!!!!!!

Erik

[michiganfarmer]

Ive heard a lot of "my syrup money goes for up grades". Ive been doing that for about 8 years. My plan is to built up to make at least 500 gallons of syrup per year. I dlike to be able to make 1000 gallons. I have a 3x12, and I intend on buying a neighbors used 600 gph ro.

I do it because i love being outside, and working for myself. I grew up on a dairy farm. I like working wiht nature. I like taping trees. I like collecting sap. I like feeding the eveporator. I love eating syrup. I just love everything about making syrup except the end of the season. If I can make enouhg profit to provide me wiht a yearly income I dont care too much about the hours of labor it takes.

[BryanEx]

This is a super thread and I want to thank those of you with larger operations for sharing some of your numbers because I've often been curious as to how you make it work given expenses and labour.

If "profitable" means making a living exclusively from maple it rules me out. If profitable means more revenue than expenses... I'm in. I typically run 45 taps, boil only on weekends and occasionally Wednesday night if I have too much sap to entertain with (I'll explain that in a second), and only sell directly to a few customers. My operation is based on families coming out and making their own syrup using mostly traditional methods and learning all about how to do it in the process. My first season payed for all the equipment and my learning process while I got things figured... in other words I worked for free or 0 labour costs factored in.

Since my second season I've been netting between $2400 and $2600 with plans on adding a second evaporator if I can get the timing and/or schedule figured out correctly so I'm not spinning too many plates at the same time. Add in the fact that my expenses are tax deductible from my day job under Ontario Farm tax laws and the net gets even better. Round all that to 3 Grand and that's not bad at all for 45 taps and a hobby I'd be doing anyway for only 4 ~ 6 weekends a year... when I'm itching to get out of the house anyway.

[3rdgen.maple]

Bryan if you are getting 2400 for 45 taps you need to share what the heck you are doing. That is over 53 bucks per tap. If I got those number my 800 Ill have out would give me 42666.66 bucks. The expected income on that 800 after expenses for me should be 10000 if I quite giving some away. Oh and for the ones that say that does not include your labor, well that 10000 is what I get for my labor. Also previous years production has payed for everything already except jugs and misc items. And you guessed it that 10000 will get rolled right back into upgrades until I have reached my magic number.

[farmall h]

Bryanex, are yo sure that dollar figure is not a typo? :o :)

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

Bryan is selling tourism for the big bucks, maple is just the hook to haul 'em in:lol:

[BryanEx]

Thompson's Tree Farm is absolutely correct. Everyone here is focused on price per gallon while I'm selling entertainment/learning experience/history. I'm surrounded by large commercial sugar bushes and am a very small player. I needed something different, marketable, and manageable... which I now have.


Bryan if you are getting 2400 for 45 taps you need to share what the heck you are doing.

Certainly... cuz I'm pretty proud of my business plan. I can elaborate on the exact numbers and my program if you wish but basically I invite families to come out and make their very own syrup AND learn how to do it in the process. I host three families on Saturday and three more on Sunday. They collect just enough sap to boil down to 1 litre (quart in US terms). In the process, which takes 3 hours from arrival to departure, they learn all about maples and making syrup. Taffy on snow is included if there is snow (I posted about that issue in this thread (http://mapletrader.com/community/showthread.php?t=8157)) and they leave with two 375 ml bottles plus two 100 ml bottles for souvenirs or for grandparents which are fully filtered, bottled, labeled, and graded. A CD of photos is also included, taken by my able-bodied assistant while my guests are collecting, boiling, bottling, etc.

My revenues are 3 families a day twice a week for an average of 6 weeks at $65 per session for a total of $2340. I also sell copies of Backyard Sugarin if they want to try it themselves along with having extra syrup available for purchase at $12 for 500 ml in Mason jars.

I spend about $150 on bottles & labels per year, $15 per year for a two year grading set, I bring in my own wood which according to another thread is about $15 per cord based on our depleting fossil fuels and eventual world crisis, and not a cent on advertising. I brought out a few families the first year to test out timing and entertainment value and they ended up telling several friends... who told some others... and so on. At this point I have a waiting list and either need to expand to a second evaporator or bump prices to increase revenue and reduce demand.


If I got those number my 800 Ill have out would give me 42666.66 bucks.
That's the catch to my business model. The larger you get the less profitable it would be and the more difficult to pull off. The first part is you need individual evaporators that can handle small batches (steam pans for example). Second, you need staff to monitor and/or coach each evaporator (small hands and high temperatures need to be monitored closely), third, I would be far more concerned about the liability laws in the States than Canada, and fourth, the further away people have to travel to collect sap the longer it takes to cycle families through. All of my sugars are within an 800 foot radius of the evaporator. Enough to keep young kids busy - not bored.

I've tried to figure out a way to take things bigger than two evaporators without success due to the staffing or logistic issues but a large operation that wanted to offer a make your own syrup sideline could make some very good added revenue if done correctly. If you want more detailed info or have any questions just let me know. I have yet to describe to someone what I'm doing and not have them interested in visiting to make their own.

[BryanEx]

Bryanex, are yo sure that dollar figure is not a typo? :o :)

It's not exact but it works out to roughly $250/gallon. :D

[farmall h]

Thank you for the explanation, it all makes sense now.

[trackerguy]

Maximum profit is when you stick with visiting someone else's sugarhouse.

[BryanEx]

KenWP... I'm wondering if my business model would circumvent the Quebec quota laws for you. I'm not familiar with the regs... but just an idea. ;)

[3rdgen.maple]

Bryan do you not have to have a liability insurance to do this.

[BryanEx]

Bryan do you not have to have a liability insurance to do this.

Yes... but I didn't include that expense because I already carry a "hobby farm" policy and don't qualify as a legal farming entity until I reach $7500 gross sales according to our tax laws. You can visit me and be kicked by a horse, have a Christmas tree fall on you, spill boiling syrup, and be attacked by a rooster... and I'm covered. I have no doubt liability issues would be more of a concern in the US.

[3rdgen.maple]

If I am going to be kicked by a horse, have a christmas tree fall on me,spill sap and be attacked by a rooster I think I may stay home:D. Bryan sounds like you got it pretty well figured out. Good luck this year and be sure to let us know how it goes. Thanks for answering the questions as well.

[ennismaple]

Sugar making becomes profitable when you stop buying new toys!

[BryanEx]

If I am going to be kicked by a horse, have a Christmas tree fall on me, spill sap and be attacked by a rooster I think I may stay home.

We all have a good time differently. :lol:


Bryan sounds like you got it pretty well figured out. Good luck this year and be sure to let us know how it goes. Thanks for answering the questions as well.

Thanks very much 3rdgen.maple. I'm pretty proud of my set up and like everyone else here love to talk about sugurin'. I will admit I made a few mistakes the first year while figuring things out during the concept stages but it all worked out quickly with some fore-thought and creativity. If anyone has any other questions feel free to ask either here or by Private Message.

[ebourassa]

how about we bring this thread back now. If i was doing this living this year i would surely go hungry and in debt, i barley made enough to cover my cost this and i do it for fun.LOL

[Fred Henderson]

You never want sugaring to be profitable because then you cannot buy any new toys. Always show a lost at least for five years then a profit in the sixth, then back to lost.

[sapbrush]

Sugar making becomes profitable when you stop buying new toys!

no i becomes profitable when you stop sugaring

[3% Solution]

Hi all,
When does sugaring become profitable??
Well that's easy ........ just the minute you start having fun!!!
And my family has fun doing this most of the time.
That's my two cents.

[Austin351]

Just bringing this thread back up to the top. Was very informative and pretty darn funny at times. Wondering how the last 8 years worked out for them?

[mountainvan]

I would give the same advice as 8 years ago. luckily I followed it!

[Haynes Forest Products]

Thanks mountain it is a good thread. I read one post where someone said they would "JUST LIKE TO GET EVEN" Yup I would like to get even with the guy that got me started in this sport. I also like what my Pappy said to me "when your hobby becomes your job its no longer your hobby"

Every year I go thru the same angst around January over what the heck am I doing this for and then I look over at a shinny fitting or a pile of valves and switches that I hope to use to complicate my syrup shack. At 1700 taps and around 80-100 thousand invested.......HA HA HA invested that's a good one CHUCK it ain't no investment its money spent. Now its money spent on a hobby I love doing and it keeps me off the streets of my home town where I can cause the most heart ache for my friends and family.

I don't smoke or gamble, I do chase women but my wife yells at me to stop so I do. I refuse to go on cruises or leave the country. OK I went to lunch in mexico for about 1.5 Hrs and to Canada for the weekend in a marching band back in 64. Yea I went to Reno once to get married for the 3rd time but my buddy paid for that shindig.

I do this because its Fun I do it because I don't hunt or fish and I have all the Bennie Babies to fill out my collection so life is complete. It was for my daughter OK leave me alone. I know guys that have Bass boats that cost dang near what I have in equipment alone. I own my land and that is an investment that won't sit in the back yard on a rusty trailer with 2 flat tires. Plus when is the last time your friend with the cool boat ever sold his fish or didn't have the door slammed in his face when he came over with a stringer of dead catfish.

I really would love to make more money selling my syrup but then again if I just didn't make so many mistakes I might just put more in the drum and less on the ground. I spend more than I make and until that stops Ill never GET EVEN. Some day and that day will come at 68 years old the wife will say its time. When that day comes Ill roll myself over to the cliff and get up out of the scooter she put me in and pretend Im taking a selfie and tip over backwards into the lake and hope she gets the life insurance and pays of my tab at my maple supplier.

I know this sounds crazy but if I had to put up with the pressure to turn a profit doing what I really Love and hate to do I would quit. Now I will say selling the syrup I didn't dump on the ground helps with the addiction but it also feeds it..........thanks for listening.

[Russell Lampron]

hey all, sugaring gets you out of the house at the best time, keeps you busy, and when you pick your head up for a breath in april, the snow is gone and the grass is starting. the birds are back and you just lost six weeks of winter. some folks pay lots of money going to florida just to do the same thing. and if your lucky, you have enough cash to buy seed and fertilizer to lose more money farming. you can't have this much fun at a carnival.

Word of wisdom right here. A big part of the reason that I make maple syrup is because it gives me something to do when I can't really do anything else. It's too late for winter sports like snowmobiling and too early for spring and summer sports like camping and going to the beach. It's fun to watch the snow disappear and the trees come back to life after a cold winter. It's also fun to show off your stuff and talk maple to anyone that will listen. And the best part is the delicious maple syrup that I make.

A lot of good points have been made in this thread so far and here's my story. I do this as a hobby that pays for itself. I take pride in the fact that I have never borrowed any money to build my little sugaring empire. I built and then remodeled and expanded my sugar house with the lumber from trees that were cut on my property. I bought my evaporator, RO machine, vacuum pump, releaser and all of the tanks and pumps that I needed with money that I got from the syrup that I made and sold. Do I make a profit? Hell no! Could I make a living doing this? Maybe if I added more taps. Do I want to try to make a living doing this? Hell no! That would take all of the fun out of it.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Dilly dilly

[BryanEx]

I received an automated update to this discussion and had forgotten all about it. I still stand by my numbers today but admittedly have out grown the whole make it yourself thing. Currently at 300 taps but expanding to 1500 this year which rules out the small equipment needed to make it work. The funny part is the agri-tourism profits as a small producer will likely be the same as a larger (but still small scale) bulk producer. Just saying the small guys can make some decent coin if willing to think outside the box.

[BreezyHill]

I agree with all that value the time spent enjoying the sugaring vacation.

From a numbers stand point profitability is simple if you spread the cost of the "toys" over a practical period of time. Take an RO I am using a 1982 Memtek that my dad bought as a demo unit. 2012 it got new vessels and this summer it will have a membrane cart made to utilize the high pressure pumps capacity with todays high performance membrane advances.

When one spreads the cost out over the real life of the machinery the cost comes to very low numbers...provided you take good care of your equipment.

The hard part will be calculating the price we all will be getting for our product in the future. $10 per quart at Sam's is going to put many operations in the read if they need to reduce their prices to this point.

Where is the price of oil going to be for next season?
Are you using AUF-AOF for better wood efficiency?
Are you including paying yourself a wage that you could have someone do your job?

Our operation currently does not include hauling of sap. It all is vacuumed to the sugarhouse. Equipment is all paid off but I want a new rig that will be used in a new location for boiling. but I can get a new oil rig to last 20 years with good maintance.

So it is possible to show profit when amortizing your cost...but when filing a schedule C you will often not show a profit for 7 years unless you are buying preowned gear and working hard to maximize your production and utilize all you equipment to its maximum capacity.

Just remember that a vacation is a change of pace for a period of time. Sugaring for me is a vacation...but so was snowmobiling til 2 am, 18 hour days during fair season, driving 3-8 hours to watch a sons collaged soccer game just to turn around a drive home.

Lets face the facts: If you are on here you have an addiction,
You are at least 50% crazy in your neighbors eyes,
but we are the envy of thousands who would give all they have to trade places with us.

So remember to value the life we live and have built, at an appropriate value...Priceless!

[Robert K]

Love it , agreed. Is it time to tap yet???? :D

[DrTimPerkins]

Here's my advice, make sure you either make a lot of syrup to sell bulk or sell it all yourself retail. Keep away from wholesaling, supplies cost the same but lower return on each bottle. Have patience, it may take a couple years for you to make a profit. Be great with all your customers. Don't belittle the competition, customers like happy farmers..Keep the "toys" to a minimum. Buy what you need to make good syrup and that's it. Do you need the 4 wheeler or can you walk the woods, walking is cheaper and healthier. Stand your ground if need be, maple is a competitive industry. Lastly, expect to work harder than 95% of the people on the earth, but enjoy your job more than 95% also. My two cents.

This advice was worth far more than it was offered at.

The only thing I would say additionally is that typically producers make money in the woods, but they spend it in the sugarhouse.

To put some actual data to it. http://blog.uvm.edu/farmvia/?page_id=394

[maple flats]

Both of the replies in the above post are good advice. I spent a few hours visiting mountainvan, he is a wealth of knowledge, mostly from the college of Hard Knocks, Dr. Tim on the other hand has the formal education and the scientific testing experience, thus he has the knowledge too, in spades.