want to make sure

[Rhino]

Hey guys, hydraulic question here..... I bought a used knuckleboom loader with its own trailer ( can haul 1 1/2 cord). I also own a chevy 1-ton dually dump truck that i had 2 hydraulic remotes installed in the back to dump my dump trailer. Inside the truck i have the switch to ingage the pump and the lever to send the fluid to the trucks dump ram. The guy who put the 2 remotes in the back put a diverter lever on the truck so if i want to dump my dump trailer, i slide the diverter handle and then go inside my truck and pull the lever which sends the fluid to the dump trailer. My question is before i bust something up......If i hook the loader up to the back remotes, and keep the lever in the truck pulled back, will this work? my dump trailer sends the fluid back to the truck just by the weight of the dump box going down, will the loader valves, or pump just keep circulating the fluid and work the loader just fine? You think my truck pump was made to run for extended periods, or just to lift a load and then back down? Hate to burn something out just by "go ahead and try it and see what happens". Would be a nice option to run the loader. Any feedback is always appreciated. By the way, the loader does have an inlet line and outlet line to the valve bank. Thanks, Rhino

[Haynes Forest Products]

Most pumps are continious duty...........AS LONG AS THEY HAVE ENOUGH OIL. Whats the oil tank like on the truck, size oil filter? PTO type dumps have a diverter valve that can dump/recirculate the oil back into the tank when the valve is neutral. When you shift the valve into the up mode all the oil goes to the rams and when it gets to the end of the stroke YOU must either move the valve to hold position or push in the clutch or disingage the PTO/pump. IF your system like most will sit and run with the pump engaged without the bed lifting then you already are in bypass so yes you can divert to a new set of valves to run the equipment as long as they will bypass back to the pumps tank. Im a little confused about the TWO remotes do you mean two seperate high pressure lines or 1 high 1 low return line.

What I would do is Install a return line/hose from the back of the truck with a inline oil filter to the oil tank this can be a NON FOOD GRADE LOW PRESSURE HOSE:lol: You will hook the high pressure side of the loader to the quick connect that would run the dump trailer and the low pressure return line from the loader to the new return line you installed. You will engage the PTO and shift the already installed bypass valves to the dump trailer option and engage the PTO and run the loader:)

[smitty76]

Is your pump pto driven from the engine or is it an electric pump? If pto you good, but if electric it more than likely was not ment to run for long periods.

[KenWP]

The ram on the dump truck is what we call a one way ram meaning it only needs oil in the up stroke and gravity brings it back down. The rams on the wood loader would be two way rams which means they allwasy have the same amount of oil in them. The ram fills from one side and emptys from the other depending on up or down. That way when you lift up something you also have complete control bringing it back down unlike the dump box which comes down slow empty and fast when full. A post pounder is usually a one way ram as it lifts it up and you just let it drop hopefully fast.

[Rhino]

It is a pto pump on my truck so i should be good that way. The 2 remotes he installed in the back i would think are 1 input 1 return, not sure? the only thing i can tell you is the dump trailer i have was a old dump truck axel and box that had a hitch put on it. When i use that i have 2 hoses that i have to hitch up so thats why i think 1 input 1 return??? Not that knowledgeable about hydraulics as you can tell. Another thing when i dump my truck box and it gets to the end of the ram stroke, the motor will dog down until i disengage the pump lever. (don't know if this info helps or not). I will wait for some more input from you guys before i hitch it up and try it. Haynes, you made me feel more confident in it that you say most pumps are continuous. that was one of my biggest concerns. My 2nd concern is blowing out the valve controls or something on the truck. maybe im paranoid for nothing.

[BarrelBoiler]

rhino
i'd check with the people who putthe dump on your duelly. they should know
some pumps for dumps are set up different from loader pumps flow and pressure wise

[Thompson's Tree Farm]

If you have to attach 2 hoses, it is a 2 way cylinder. Pressure in both directions. A one way cylinder puts pressure to raise the dump or extend the cylinder and the weight of the box or load to compress the cylinder thus forcing the oil back through the same hose it came in through.

[michelle32]

Rhino, These guys sell trailers like the one you are talking about give them a call. I'm sure they can help. HUD-SON FOREST EQUIPMENT 1-800-765-7297 or 315-896-2627 or google for web site. Make sure you use the dash if googling. Keith

[Grade "A"]

One thing you might run into is that the pump may not have enough flow. Most pumps run around 3000 psi, so you should have the pressure you need. But it may run the loader slowly because of lower flow. You may need someone to hit the gas for you to get the pump to put out more oil.

[michelle32]

Asked a guy I know that works on this stuff said would work fine. Theres a by pass in the valve body on the trailer. Just make sure inlet is correct and you will probably need a bigger reservoir for the hydrolic fluid.Keith

[Haynes Forest Products]

Michelle32 I wouldnt assume there is a by pass on the trailer. If there was then there would be a valve to regulate the UP-DOWN on the trailer. Rhino see if the 2 lines that to the back of the truck come from the same place and I mean the very same fitting. If one comes off a valve and the other from the tank then you have a comlpete circuit. THATS GOOD

Grade A makes a good point about PSI and FLOW. Alot of dump truck PTO pumps are low flow high pressure and will translate into a very slow running Knuckelboom. How fast does the dumps go up? As far a keeping the RPMs up in the truck thats done with a remote screw type cable pull. the have a button in the center to release it back to the neutrel/off position. They attach to the carb linkage and as you pull/screw the throttle out it increases the RPMs. Most trucks set up for this type of application would have a Govoner to keep the remoto unit running smoother and keep the engine from sitting there screaming or over speeding during slow operation.

[Rhino]

ok guys, went out and followed the hydraulic lines, should of did that right away and posted it. Pump is under the hood, from there a 1 inch line goes to the lever control box where my lever connects to, that engages the dump ram on truck, there is also a 1 inch line that goes off of this to the resevoir tank. now this is where the guy did his hydraulic fancy work. he put 2 half inch hydraulic lines off of the lever control box. one of the lines goes all the way to the back of the truck, with a remote on it. this line also has a 1/4 inch line t'd off of it and that line goes to the top of my trucks ram. The other 1/2 inch line also goes from the lever control box to the "diverter" lever he put on to operate the dump trailer. The other remote in the back of the truck just comes out of that "diverter" he installed. There is one other 1/2 inch line out of that "diverter" lever he installed and that one he connected to a 1/4 inch line that goes into the bottom of the trucks ram. You might want to draw a diagram to get the full effect of what i wrote. Like i wrote, The 1 inch feeder line, and one inch output back to resevoir line all are connected to the factory installed lever control box. from that point on is where the guy did all the other voodooo. I was surprised to see only 1/4 inch lines to my truck ram. dumps quick enough though. real fast if i hit the gas. Now knowing this guys, what actually are the 2 remotes. are both pressure? or is there a return? will take all knowledge in before i plug it in, wood can wait awhile yet. Thanks

[Smitty]

Rhino,
sounds like you are asking all the right questions, but bare with me, there
is alot of things to know. the hydraulic cylinder under your dump trailer,
does it have one hose at the bottom, or does it have two hoses, one at
top, one at bottom. i greatly recommend a filter on return line( make
sure bit is atleast 13 gal. a minute). the larger the resevior tank the
better (for cooling, continues flow systems demand alot of cooling, plan
on adding a cooling unit). What diameter is the dump cylinder? if the
knuckle-boom cylinders are the same diameter, it will function at the
same speed( one function at a time, will be slower if you multi-function
at one time), if the cylinders are larger, it will function slower. i would
also add a pressure relief valve. The last project i made, no relief valve,
bent the main cylinder into a horseshoe. (!@##@@!!@#@@!!~@@#)


hope this helps,
Al Smith

[Haynes Forest Products]

Rhino Smitty has some good ideas and advice. NOW lets try a few things Does the pump turn whenever the truck is running or is there a elec clutch like a air cond? Raise the dump all the way and put the valve lever in neutral turn off the truck with the truck off move lever to the down position. What happens? If it sits there staying up you have power up and power down. If it comes down making the same sound you get when you stand on a running garden hose its a single acting system. Thats OK. If you have a single acting system the 1/4 lines that are on the top of the cylinder are oil returns because the cylinders leak on the inside and the oil needs to escape during the down cycle.....THATS OK. most home builds and even store boughts use double acting cylinders and just vent the top port. Some people will put a air vent plug in that port to allow air to move in and out as the ram goes up and down. BUT over time they will develope leaks and shoot oil all over the place so the vent return line is a good thing. What size are the lines to the bottom of the ram. Most OVER FLOW lines from the top port usually go to the oil tank and dont go back into the pressure side of the system. It can be done it just confuses people. Do those two line come out of the same fitting? You say the hoses go to the remote? what is the remote? a quick connect? a valve? You need to do the test I asked you to do before I can get a grip on things

[Haynes Forest Products]

Dang Rhino went to bed and started thinking about the 1/4 lines and if they are vents and if they go to the 1/2 pressure lines they would need check valves or they would cancel each other out. Im going back to bed. Does this qualify for being NUTs?

[Rhino]

Haynes, sounds like i really got inside your head, The truck ram will stay up when i shut the truck off and have the lever in nuetral. only way it will come down is push the lever in the down position. I call them remotes, but yes they are the quick connectors. As far as the two 1/4 inch lines that go to the truck ram.... the upper one (closest to push arm) is the one that was t'd off of a 1/2 inch line that goes to a quick connect to the back of truck. this 1/2 inch line comes out of the hydraulic box where my lever from my truck cab connects to. The other 1/4 inch line at the bottom of the truck ram goes to the "diverter" lever the guy put on. On that "diverter" lever box that the guy put on there is 3 lines connected. one goes to the truck ram (to the bottom of ram) one goes to the hydraulic box where my truck lever is connected to. and one goes to a quick connect to the back of the truck. Just a wild guess here but would the 1/2 inch line that is t'd off to the 1/4 inch line that connects to the top of the truck ram be a return line? since it is connected to the top of the ram you would think right? if so that would mean the one quick connect hose that this 1/4 inch line is t'd off of is a return line right? I think we are getting closer to a maiden voyage here. don't give up on me just yet. Thanks.

[Big_Eddy]

Pictures are worth a thousand words.

Trying to follow your thousand words wasn't working for me so I drew a diagram. Hope I got it right. You didn't mention a filter - it could be in the suction or return or even in the tank. Hopefully you have one.

Expect your new loader has an open center valve. What it needs is a high pressure feed line and a low pressure return line, with a continuous flow of pressurized fluid. Regardless of what you do with the loader, fluid comes in the HP hose and out the LP hose. In neutral it just passes through the open center, when you move the valve fluid is diverted to the cylinders.

If you're connected as I've drawn - then you're good. When you engage the pump with the valve in neutral, IN connects to RTN and A and B are blocked. Fluid flows in the IN port and out the RTN port and back to the tank.

When you move the main valve to UP - IN connects to A, B connects to RTN and fluid flows out the A port to the diverter then out either the D1 or the D2 port as selected, then returns via the Tee to the B port and back to the tank. (Blue arrows or Green Arrows)

If this is the case - then you're fine. High pressure from the R1 port, return in the R2.

Only thing I'm not sure about - and it has no impact on what you want to do - is how the factory valve works in the DOWN position. Because you are not power down, then I think what is happening is that IN and RTN stay connected and A and B are opened to RTN too allowing fluid to flow back to the tank by gravity alone. Power down would connect IN to B and A to RTN. Doesn't matter for what you're trying to do anyway.

[Rhino]

Big Eddy, you got it perfect, nice job. My filter is on the one inch return line just before it enters the resivoir tank. I am guessing my tank holds 10-12 gallons of fluid. hope its enough to do 2 actions with the loader at once. Thanks for all the input, I will try it out this weekend and tell you how it works. Mapletraders have a wealth of knowledge.

[Haynes Forest Products]

Rhino Remember when a double acting cylinder moves all the oil that it takes to move is also replaced by the other side of the rams oil going back to the tank. so its a zero loss game. OK the ram side takes less oil to operate sorry:)

[Rhino]

Haynes, thanks for your input also! ya know I could of just hitched it up, put on safety glasses and a hard hat and hoped for the best, but that isn't my style. I hate break downs and replaceing parts when a few simple questions and answers is all it takes to save time and $$$$.

[Russ]

Rhino's brother here... everything worked well hooked to the truck, except the clam rotator. Here are some pix...

[BarrelBoiler]

what's up with the rotor? ran a triaxle self loader for 20 years and had to replace the splines that the hyd rotor motor fit into twice had to drill out the old spline area to fit a splineed coupling that was welded in- had a machine shop do it
that is one thing that can happen
good luck it will save alot of backaches

[Haynes Forest Products]

Russ WHAT happened to Rhino that he cant get on the comp. is he "grounded" ? I really dont see a log loader at all. I see a cage tank hauler. Should be able to swap out 2 at a time without missing a drop of sap. Lets get our prioritys stright:)

[Russ]

Let's just say Rhino is graphically challenged when it comes to posting pics. Yeah, I thought about putting a cage tank on the trailer... how cool would that be? Here's our gathering rig for the woods 13 miles away from the sugar shack.