Grafting Sugar on Red

[Frank Ivy]

I am going to attempt to graft a sugar maple scion onto a red maple root stock this spring.

I have several reasons for trying this . . .
1. I have lots of smaller red maples that could potentially be grafted.
2. My property is mostly clay soil and wet. The reds really seem to love all of it. The Sugars not so much.
3. Red maples around here seem to get a lot older and bigger, from which I infer the roots do better. As I posted elsewhere, sugar maples around here seem to start going into decline fairly early in their lives.
4. Sugar Maples can offer better colors.
5. I'm curious


There seems to be very little on the Internet on this.
I found a paper suggesting that genetics from the scion do not dictate sugar content in sugar/sugar grafts http://www.fs.fed.us/ne/newtown_square/publications/research_notes/pdfs/scanned/OCR/ne_rn328.pdf

Cornell also has an ongoing study of sugar/sugar grafts http://maple.dnr.cornell.edu/Ext/tree_impr/tree%20improvement.htm


A basic grafting principle, as I understand it, and granted that is not a high level of understanding, tells me that species within a genus should be graftable to each other.

Does anybody know . . .

. . . will a sugar scion take on a red root stock (rubrum rootstock, sacharum scion)?

. . . how will red maple root stock affect sugar content? My assumption is that sugar production and storage is completely controlled up top, but that could be a bad assumption. Perhaps, for example, there is something about sugar maple roots that allow extra complex carb storage.

Thanks for any thoughts.

[DrTimPerkins]

I am going to attempt to graft a sugar maple scion onto a red maple root stock this spring.

Might be an interesting project. In the meantime....why not tap the larger red maples you have?

[Frank Ivy]

Might be an interesting project. In the meantime....why not tap the larger red maples you have?

Good question.

I suppose the answer is two fold . . .

1. My understanding is that it will take twice as much energy to boil off water out of red maple sap. As I am just starting, and everything is going to be done in a large SS stock pot and firewood - outside!, I'm trying to stay efficient.

2. I have enough sugar maples to make the syrup I want for this year.


I have reds that are just massive for reds. I should get some pics. I'll have to go get a measurement of C . . .

This isn't a project that would yield anything for me - but it'd be cool to tell the grandkids in a few years that there are a couple dozen grafted red/sugars growing in the ravine in a virtual swamp.

[40to1]

I think being curious is the best reason.
Do it. It'll be interesting to see how it turns out.

My (very limited) understanding of apple tree grafting is that the root stock determines the size of the tree whilst the graft determines the fruit. Granted your "fruit" will only have sugar levels in the single digits...

[DrTimPerkins]

Given that you have plenty of trees (sugar and red), but low evaporation capacity, it would be worthwhile to test the sugar content of a fair number of your trees (sugar and red), and only collect from those with the highest sugar content. Some of those large red maples might just surprise you with a higher sugar content than some of the sugar maples.

[Frank Ivy]

Given that you have plenty of trees (sugar and red), but low evaporation capacity, it would be worthwhile to test the sugar content of a fair number of your trees (sugar and red), and only collect from those with the highest sugar content. Some of those large red maples might just surprise you with a higher sugar content than some of the sugar maples.

Now that's the most interesting thing I've read in quite some time.

What do you recommend for sampling sap? A sap hydrometer? Or a refractometer (probably out of my price range).

Do you know which part of the tree controls sugar content?

If not, what is your guess?

Thanks,
Frank

[DrTimPerkins]

What do you recommend for sampling sap? A sap hydrometer? Or a refractometer (probably out of my price range).

Do you know which part of the tree controls sugar content?


Either a sap hydrometer or a sap refractometer will work. A refractometer is easier for testing trees because it only requires a drop or two. If it's a refractometer, it needn't be a fancy digital thing. Optical sap refractometers aren't terribly costly. Just be sure to measure the sugar content of all your test trees within a relatively short period of time (a few hrs), as sap sugar content changes over the season and even within a day. In general, the sap sugar content will fluctuate, but the relationship of one tree to the others around it will stay relatively stable.

Sap sugar content is under both genetic and environmental control. Some trees are just naturally sweeter than others (genetics). Anything you can do to increase growth (environment) will also increase sap yield, but this can affect both sap volume and sap sweetness to varying degrees. The interesting thing about the relationship is that sweeter trees also tend to produce higher quantities of sap.

[Frank Ivy]

Either a sap hydrometer or a sap refractometer will work. A refractometer is easier for testing trees because it only requires a drop or two. If it's a refractometer, it needn't be a fancy digital thing. Optical sap refractometers aren't terribly costly. Just be sure to measure the sugar content of all your test trees within a relatively short period of time (a few hrs), as sap sugar content changes over the season and even within a day. In general, the sap sugar content will fluctuate, but the relationship of one tree to the others around it will stay relatively stable.

Sap sugar content is under both genetic and environmental control. Some trees are just naturally sweeter than others (genetics). Anything you can do to increase growth (environment) will also increase sap yield, but this can affect both sap volume and sap sweetness to varying degrees. The interesting thing about the relationship is that sweeter trees also tend to produce higher quantities of sap.

Excellent. I like the idea of a refractometer.
Great tip on the collection times.
Interesting correlation on the sweet/volume.

[Frank Ivy]

Here are some pics of various red maple trees from around the property. This one with the large number of boluses and two large spars might be two trees that grew at the same time adjacent each other, but they are morphologically identical, so I'm guessing they're two shoots from 1 tree . . . for this one, C is about 14', d is about 4 feet.
http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/9826/picture007wt.jpg(Picture not loading sometimes)


This one is also about 4 feet in diameter. Well formed. Only bummer is that the 7" diameter tree in front of it is a Cucumber tree - one of only 2 on my property, with the other being a sapling. So there's no way I can cut it down. Bummer that the only sizable specimen I have of the cuc is right on top of one of my largest and oldest reds.http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/617/picture008lc.jpg

Here's a smaller one - very healthy.

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/7827/picture001sc.jpg

Any sugar maples in the area that get to the above size will have dead spars, peeling, moldy bark, and so on.

And here's a hemlock that was spared the lumber saw before i bought the place, presumably because they weren't looking for hemlock.
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/368/picture004q.jpg

[Frank Ivy]

Refractometer question - I found one that is described as "45-82% ATC New Handheld Brix Refractometer" that has an operating range of room temp +/- 10 degrees C.

I found another one that is 0-18%, same temp range.

Would these be suitable?

I assume that I could pipette a test sample, put the drop on, allow a few seconds for the drop to warm/cool to the temp of the refractometer, and the reading should be accurate.

Thanks.

[Acer]

Got quite a surprise today, tested one of my field reds with the new hannah.


drum roll........


3% !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:D

[lpakiz]

Frank,
You definitely want the lower scale--sap will seldom get over 5% and usually 2-3%. The larger scale will be very hard to read accurately...
Better yet is 0 to 10%, providing even more scale separation.

[DrTimPerkins]

Refractometer question - I found one that is described as "45-82% ATC New Handheld Brix Refractometer" that has an operating range of room temp +/- 10 degrees C.

I found another one that is 0-18%, same temp range.


Would be better if the temperature compensation range was a bit larger, but these would work within their limits.

First would be suitable for syrup (although you always need to verify with a hydrometer to be sure). Second would be good for sap.

Close the cover of the refractometer immediately after the drop is put on the sample surface. This will equilibrate the temperature faster and otherwise even a small amount of evaporation would skew the sample towards higher sugar content.

[DrTimPerkins]

Got quite a surprise today, tested one of my field reds with the new hannah.


Not bad for a red maple. Guess you'll have to rethink tapping those reds.

Which model of Hannah are you using? If it has a wide operating range, it tends to be a bit less accurate at the extremes, so may not be the best for telling tree apart based upon sap sugar content. For example....a tree that reads 2.1 and another that read 2.2 are probably not really different with a unit with a wide Brix range. Better to use something with a narrow range for that. Usually instruments of this sort are rated something like +/- 2% full-scale. So if you have a 0-20 Brix instrument, your error is in the range of 0.4 Brix. But if you have a 0-80 Brix instrument with +/- 2% FS, your error could be 1.6 Brix. Makes a HUGE difference when you're buying sap.....in that case...pull out the sap hydrometer or a sap refractometer and you'll be much happier.

[Acer]

Tim,
Its the hi96801 0-80brix temperature compensated. reads distilled water as 0brix and last years syrup as 66.5brix.
That red is bushed top to bottom, was given full sun around 1996.

Dean